Anderton
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 12:44 AM
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Well there will probably be instances where you'll still need to do what you're doing, but other scenarios where you can simplify your approach. I don't have a panacea, I have a workaround but this thread at least caused me to dig in and find out why I was getting unpredictable results, and the conditions that would produce those results.
The way it's shaping up is there's a "continuum of complexity." There are some projects that work perfectly as expected with a simple clickstream, and others that require a major amount of effort. The goal is to identify which projects don't need the convoluted approaches, and which do.
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dcmg
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 1:13 PM
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I admit to feeling a bit concerned/embarrassed when a client asks for a wholesale arrangement edit and I know I have to jump through a few hoops to make it happen without unintended consequences...it sure seems like it should be easier.
As mentioned numerous times, it can't be a single event edit due to all the variables, not the least of which is the practice of locking clips in place ( and often not seeing those) as you do a major section "all tracks" edit. There would have to be boxes to tick on how events are moved on the timeline.
My habit is "save as Test Edit" before executing. If nothing unintended happens, rename to current name. Safety first :)
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mettelus
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 1:41 PM
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dcmg
My habit is "save as Test Edit" before executing. If nothing unintended happens, rename to current name. Safety first :)
I honestly feel that most of us have been conditioned to do that as second nature for survival. What really concerns me most are two aspects. First, if you change the OP from "longstanding problem X" to "longstanding problem Y," the thread explodes, a lot of firefighting occurs (possibly including some fixes), and it tapers down. After that it smolders (almost assumed forgotten) until it gets fanned again, then the cycle repeats. Second, and more concerning, is the reaction of truly new users to workarounds that veteran users take as second nature; and then try to force that as "the answer." A new user is not going to be as accepting of an issue that has been outstanding for a decade, especially when it stops creativity dead in its tracks. From a risk management perspective, I always project past into the future and a "decade" is a long friggin' time to wait (for anything); and there is no guarantee any of us will even be alive to use it by then. A new user is going to focus much more on functionality - what exists, and what does not - in some ways it is easier to explain "That has not been included yet" versus "Oh yeah, we have that, but it doesn't work quite right (and hasn't for years now)."
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sharke
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 1:57 PM
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I think another thing to consider is the difference in the ways in which younger and older users perceive software. Those of you who are music production veterans and have perhaps used sequencing software since the 1980's are used to dealing with the limitations of software and are much more accepting of long drawn out workarounds and finicky processes. But for kids who grew up in a more advanced age of software and audio production, who may not even know what a friggin MIDI cable is and are used to using well designed, slick apps that automate everything very smoothly, a long workaround to achieve what in their mind is a very simple operation (delete some time from my song!) is going to make them feel like they're using a 30 year old piece of software instead of a modern, state of the art app. EDIT; didn't see that mettelus made essentially the same point above.
post edited by sharke - February 24, 16 2:15 PM
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Anderton
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 3:30 PM
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sharke
I think another thing to consider is the difference in the ways in which younger and older users perceive software. Those of you who are music production veterans and have perhaps used sequencing software since the 1980's are used to dealing with the limitations of software and are much more accepting of long drawn out workarounds and finicky processes. But for kids who grew up in a more advanced age of software and audio production, who may not even know what a friggin MIDI cable is and are used to using well designed, slick apps that automate everything very smoothly, a long workaround to achieve what in their mind is a very simple operation (delete some time from my song!) is going to make them feel like they're using a 30 year old piece of software instead of a modern, state of the art app.
True, but then again, they're probably not inserting time signatures, adding advanced tempo changes, having unquantized MIDI parts, or recording free-form and attempting to line up to a grid later. If they don't introduce those kinds of variables, everything pretty much works as expected. For example I have yet to encounter issues with non-groove clip, audio-only projects.
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sharke
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 3:36 PM
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Anderton
sharke
I think another thing to consider is the difference in the ways in which younger and older users perceive software. Those of you who are music production veterans and have perhaps used sequencing software since the 1980's are used to dealing with the limitations of software and are much more accepting of long drawn out workarounds and finicky processes. But for kids who grew up in a more advanced age of software and audio production, who may not even know what a friggin MIDI cable is and are used to using well designed, slick apps that automate everything very smoothly, a long workaround to achieve what in their mind is a very simple operation (delete some time from my song!) is going to make them feel like they're using a 30 year old piece of software instead of a modern, state of the art app.
True, but then again, they're probably not inserting time signatures, adding advanced tempo changes, having unquantized MIDI parts, or recording free-form and attempting to line up to a grid later. If they don't introduce those kinds of variables, everything pretty much works as expected. For example I have yet to encounter issues with non-groove clip, audio-only projects.
They still have to deal with things like having to insert dummy clips for "delete hole" to work correctly on all tracks and the time range specified. And I think you'd be surprised at how many EDM producers use tempo changes in their tracks, even if it's just a BPM here and there for effect. Besides, I'm of the opinion that if Sonar offers tempo and time sig change functionality then it's edit functions should deal with them correctly - it doesn't make sense to me to leave them out of the equation just because they're only used by a minority. I'm sure the majority of pieces composed in Sibelius or Finale stick to one time signature too, yet they move new time signatures correctly when deleting measures.
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Anderton
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 3:48 PM
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sharke
They still have to deal with things like having to insert dummy clips for "delete hole" to work correctly on all tracks and the time range specified. And I think you'd be surprised at how many EDM producers use tempo changes in their tracks, even if it's just a BPM here and there for effect. That's why I said "adding advanced tempo changes." I use tempo changes in most of my EDM material, but it's not as jarring as the tempo changes done in my rock stuff. I'm not saying these issues shouldn't be fixed, just that the more complex a piece, the more variables to deal with when moving large chunks of data, and that I don't think most beginners work at that high a level so wouldn't encounter these kinds of issues as often, if at all.
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sharke
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 3:51 PM
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Anderton
sharke
They still have to deal with things like having to insert dummy clips for "delete hole" to work correctly on all tracks and the time range specified. And I think you'd be surprised at how many EDM producers use tempo changes in their tracks, even if it's just a BPM here and there for effect.
That's why I said "adding advanced tempo changes." I use tempo changes in most of my EDM material, but it's not as jarring as the tempo changes done in my rock stuff.
I'm not saying these issues shouldn't be fixed, just that the more complex a piece, the more variables to deal with when moving large chunks of data, and that I don't think most beginners work at that high a level so wouldn't encounter these kinds of issues as often, if at all.
That's true, but even a simple tempo or sig change isn't handled as expected, and this desperately needs to be fixed.
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Anderton
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 4:10 PM
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sharke
Even a simple tempo or sig change isn't handled as expected...
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. If there's a gradual upward change over 1 measure, you select three measures with the tempo change in the middle measure, then delete hole (with tempo changes) checked for these three measures, what would you expect to have happen to the tempo map? And would this be what you wanted every time?
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sharke
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 4:19 PM
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☄ Helpfulby groovey1 February 24, 16 5:17 PM
Anderton
sharke
Even a simple tempo or sig change isn't handled as expected...
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. If there's a gradual upward change over 1 measure, you select three measures with the tempo change in the middle measure, then delete hole (with tempo changes) checked for these three measures, what would you expect to have happen to the tempo map? And would this be what you wanted every time?
I think a general philosophy to pursue would be that everything after the deleted region should sound the same as it was before the deletion. So if the last tempo change in the deleted section was 123bpm then that tempo change should be inserted at the point of the cut so that the tempo after the cut is preserved. If this is not what the user wants, they can always remove that tempo event manually.
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scottcmusic
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 4:30 PM
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Sounds simple and intuitive to me, Craig. I have this problem too ...
It also sounds like your suggestion would solve the other insert/delete issue I always have, which is, if there is any MIDI clip info spanning the area to be deleted or appended, it usually just gets nuked ... or badly maimed at the very least.
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SMcNamara
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 4:34 PM
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VariousArtist
Here's what I have to do now to get around this (it's clumsy, time-consuming and nearly but not quite perfect, but I have it down now):
- I place markers at the boundaries of the region to be moved or deleted (easier to select thereafter)
- I add dummy midi data to blank areas and boundaries in that region (sometimes I add dummy silent audio too)
- I select everything in all tracks (CTRL-A)
- I split all the tracks at the start and end section
- In tempo view I add a redundant tempo change right at the boundaries, just before and just after the splits (at both ends)
- In time signature I do the same as with tempo (very important to do both if there are tempo changes and time sig changes)
- I select all tracks again
- I select the timeline region between markers
- if moving the region I will first make all the selected clips part of one group
- then I use the Cut... dialog and make sure everything is checked off
- if moving, I first paste the clips sometime after the song and then revisit the problem of moving
- I cleanup and cross fade clips at the boundaries
- then I listen to see if it worked
- later I might deal with sudden tempo changes etc.
Can't we just get a Macro for this? 
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groovey1
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 4:52 PM
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sharke
I think a general philosophy to pursue would be that everything after the deleted region should sound the same as it was before the deletion. ...
+1 ... this makes total sense to me. If we had a simple command to delete a block of time starting at a certain point, and everything after that block sounds just like it did before, that would be great!
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M@
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 4:58 PM
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sharke
I think a general philosophy to pursue would be that everything after the deleted region should sound the same as it was before the deletion. ...
+1 That's what makes sense to me too.
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Anderton
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 5:36 PM
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Yes, except if the area to be deleted contains instructions for what the area after the deletion is supposed to sound like, how is SONAR supposed to know that you aren't deleting those instructions on purpose because you want the part after the delete to continue on from what was happening before the delete? Clearly, in the example of the gradual time change I gave above, the intention was to have a slight change over time. So if at the cut point you now have a jump to the new tempo, that's not what was intended.
The core of the issue seems to be that there's no "rule" that's going to work every time. I think the best anyone can hope for is a rule that works most of the time, but that manual editing is going to be unavoidable in some, maybe even many, cases.
The problem re tempo changes as I see it is if you check Tempo Changes when doing a Delete Hole, and there are tempo changes within that hole, the results aren't consistent. I think the only possible solution is to choose a consistent result for what happens, but realize that a lot of the time, it's not going to be what you want. However, at least you'll know in advance it's not what you want rather than finding out afterward.
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sharke
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 6:29 PM
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☄ Helpfulby VariousArtist February 24, 16 11:32 PM
I think what's obvious is that there would have to be a handful of options to check, just like there are with delete special and paste special. If the user checks the box to delete tempo information, then the tempo after the cut will be the same as the tempo before the cut. If the user checks the box to delete time signature information, then ditto. If either of these boxes are left unchecked then Sonar will presume that the user wants the audio after the cut to play exactly as it did before the operation, and will thus insert the last tempo or time signature event within the deleted area at the cut point.
I think, however, that it's logical that all tempo and time signature events after the cut should be shifted to the left when the gap is filled. After all, if you wanted those events to stay fixed in absolute time then is a "delete time" operation what you're looking for? A simple lasso and drag or the existing slide operation would move the clips if that's what you wanted, and all of the tempo and time events would remain intact.
I have a similar feeling about locked clips. If you want clips to retain their absolute positions then would you really be looking for a "delete time" operation? Look how the "slide" function handles locked clips - it's simply grays itself out if all selected clips are locked . Perhaps "delete time" would be disabled if there were locked clips after the cut, or perhaps it would come with a pop up warning the user that any locked clips would be shifted along the timeline after the operation, or perhaps "locked clips" could be one of the options. Either you want them to take part in the shift or you don't. I don't think it's getting too complicated really - look at the paste special dialog. I'm sure we could get by with fewer checkboxes than that.
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Anderton
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 7:33 PM
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☄ Helpfulby VariousArtist February 24, 16 11:32 PM
sharke
I think, however, that it's logical that all tempo and time signature events after the cut should be shifted to the left when the gap is filled. Well I think I have some good news. I could get tempo but not time signature to slide over properly when I first started with a blank project, but now it's happening exactly the way it's supposed to. Not sure what I did to make that happen; this is part of the testing to which I alluded. If I can provide a recipe for both making it happen as expected and the conditions that don't make it happen as expected, I bet the fix wouldn't be too hard. I have a feeling it might relate to the presence of markers, because once I tried deleting hole after experimenting to see what markers did, things started working correctly. Now it's becoming a puzzle...I like to solve puzzles , wish me luck.
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bvideo
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 7:36 PM
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groovey1
sharke
I think a general philosophy to pursue would be that everything after the deleted region should sound the same as it was before the deletion. ...
+1 ... this makes total sense to me. If we had a simple command to delete a block of time starting at a certain point, and everything after that block sounds just like it did before, that would be great!
+1 ... this makes total sense to me too. It may seem that "tempo change", "key signature change", "patch change", controllers, etc are simply events, but really they are boundary markers for properties of the music that remain constant between events. With that concept, wherever some musical time is deleted, the following music should retain the properties it had before the deletion. Sonar already knows how to "chase" such events.
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Anderton
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 8:57 PM
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bvideo
groovey1
sharke
I think a general philosophy to pursue would be that everything after the deleted region should sound the same as it was before the deletion. ...
+1 ... this makes total sense to me. If we had a simple command to delete a block of time starting at a certain point, and everything after that block sounds just like it did before, that would be great!
+1 ... this makes total sense to me too.
It may seem that "tempo change", "key signature change", "patch change", controllers, etc are simply events, but really they are boundary markers for properties of the music that remain constant between events. With that concept, wherever some musical time is deleted, the following music should retain the properties it had before the deletion. Sonar already knows how to "chase" such events.
I think you're actually asking for the reverse, which is what I had mentioned. When they say "before the deletion," I think they mean "what that section sounded like before you did the deletion," not "the sound of the section that occurs on the timeline prior to the section you deleted." This is why I think "rules" about a composer's intentions are going to be wrong a lot of times. And the rules change for different genres. The "rules" for a rock song might be very different from a music bed for a kiosk video.
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bvideo
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 9:15 PM
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☄ Helpfulby VariousArtist February 24, 16 11:32 PM
I said literally "the following music should retain the properties it had...", so yes I means it should sound the same as before the deletion was performed and also have the same nominal meter and key signature. So I think I am agreeing with the statement I quoted.
By properties, I mean the result of applying all the tempo, meter, key, and controller changes that occurred in the piece before the deletion was applied. It would use the same logic Sonar uses to chase tempo, meter, key, and controller changes when you begin playback in the middle of the piece. In this case, think of the point were time is deleted to be equivalent to the point where playback begins when Sonar does chasing. At that point, the most recent values of those properties, as they appeared within the deleted material, would be inserted, just as Sonar would invoke the most recent values of all those properties when starting playback.
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Anderton
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 10:18 PM
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Ah, I think I see now I was confused when you said chasing. Now I get you mean chasing back from the END point of the deletion to what was in the hole, then applying those properties to where the end point ends up. Right?
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VariousArtist
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 10:39 PM
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Anderton
sharke
I think, however, that it's logical that all tempo and time signature events after the cut should be shifted to the left when the gap is filled.
Well I think I have some good news. I could get tempo but not time signature to slide over properly when I first started with a blank project, but now it's happening exactly the way it's supposed to. Not sure what I did to make that happen; this is part of the testing to which I alluded. If I can provide a recipe for both making it happen as expected and the conditions that don't make it happen as expected, I bet the fix wouldn't be too hard. I have a feeling it might relate to the presence of markers, because once I tried deleting hole after experimenting to see what markers did, things started working correctly.
Now it's becoming a puzzle...I like to solve puzzles , wish me luck.
I hope so! :-) But to be sure we're covering some "ugly" but real world scenarios. Try doing this with a smattering of clips of various sizes that provide a scientifically exhaustive approach to being sure: - clips that extend both ends of the region
- clips that extend before start of the region but not past the end (and vice versa)
- small clips within the region boundaries
- small clips before and after the boundaries
- all of the above with MIDI and AUDIO
- all of the above with tempo changes occurring before/after the small clips as well as before/after the region boundaries (but not directly before after -- that's too easy)
My experience is that, under normal recording of ideas and overdubs I may amass the above list over a dozen or more tracks. Then when it comes time to delete a time selection across all tracks right in the middle of tempo changes and time signature changes, I run into issues of those small clips not being in the same place relative to the MBT when I started. DISCLAIMER/FULL-DISCLOSURE: Perhaps some of this has been improved in recent Sonar versions, because I came up with my approach back with X1 (maybe even 8.5). I believe I tried to go a simpler route with later versions but ultimately had to fallback to my overly zealous approach I described earlier. And since my approach has worked consistently for me I stick with it. But I would *love* to use a simpler automated method that, cough, "just works" ;-)
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stratman70
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 10:58 PM
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You know, I only posted once in this thread-agreeing with Sharke at the beginning-still do. But after reading all the posts after mine it is obvious that check boxes or something would have to be involved for Sonar to know exactly what you want at that given time and edit- I know this has been mentioned a bunch already. Just sayin I could work with that. Especially if they (check-boxes) stayed the way you used them last and have a default reset button....I think it would be easier to implement that way-we do some of the thinking for the new feature......so to speak. Just my 2 cents, or 1 cent.
post edited by stratman70 - February 24, 16 11:12 PM
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Anderton
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 11:04 PM
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I think the first task is to define what's consistent and what's not. I don't think there's any advantage to adding options to something that has inconsistencies. It may be a bug, or it may be predictable, but undesired, behavior. Once whatever exists is solid, then it's possible to start tinkering with it.
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sharke
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 11:24 PM
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I still think a lot of of problems could be avoided by restricting a Delete Time function to regions with no clips. So it's the job of the user to clear any audio or MIDI clips within the region first, including data which straddles the cut points. That way, we can set aside any question of what Sonar should do with data which extends into or starts inside the region. The only things you'd have to deal with is time signature and tempo events within the region, because they determine the state of the project after the cut point. I think it's safe to say that if your object is to delete time, you're not looking to preserve any audio or MIDI data within the region you're trying to delete. If you do wish to preserve any of it, it's up to you to move it to another place before the operation.
post edited by sharke - February 24, 16 11:39 PM
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bvideo
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 11:29 PM
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Anderton
Ah, I think I see now I was confused when you said chasing. Now I get you mean chasing back from the END point of the deletion to what was in the hole, then applying those properties to where the end point ends up. Right?
Yup! Thanks for adding the clarity.
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sharke
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 11:29 PM
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Another potential complication would be what to do in a situation in which the user has selected a region which contains partial measures? Should the operation be restricted only to time selections which start and end on bar lines?
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bvideo
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 24, 16 11:41 PM
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sharke
Another potential complication would be what to do in a situation in which the user has selected a region which contains partial measures? Should the operation be restricted only to time selections which start and end on bar lines?
Someone might want to delete a range that is a whole number of measures, but not at a measure boundary (e.g. pickup-to-pickup). But if someone really wanted to delete a range that is not a whole number of measures, or even beats, I wonder what would their intentions be? Sounds too hard to guess ... Sound track maybe?
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sharke
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 25, 16 0:43 PM
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Yeah it's hard to imagine why you would want to do that, but who knows? Let's say the song is in 4/4 and the region you selected started on beat 2 of a measure of ended on beat 3 of a measure. After the join you would end up with a measure of 3/4.
Of course you could make it so that Sonar behaves the same way as Insert Time behaves when you've set the cursor in between bar lines - it inserts the time from the next bar line after the cursor. So perhaps a Delete Time function would round off to the nearest bar lines in a similar way.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Kamikaze
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Re: We REALLY need some easy way to remove time from a project
February 25, 16 1:02 AM
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Anderton
sharke
It's far more important that Sonar preserve time signature and tempo changes, given that it's a music creation program.
Maybe I'm just slow, but I still don't understand how SONAR would know where to re-place a time signature or tempo change event if it existed in an area that no longer exists. Kylotan presented one option, but then, someone could argue that groove pitch markers or MIDI program changes are equally important, and require their own pop-up menu..and then the "keep it simple and fast" option becomes much more difficult.
Couldn't the last of every Time signature, tempo and CC message from the deleted region be moved to preserved.. All the Tempo, Time siganture and CC data before the last are irrelevant, but the last is relevent for the kept section after.
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