mixsit
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We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar.. http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=275737 that led to a question -something I shoud know -or did know at one time.   When you make a new track what makes it come up as a mono' or stereo? And what's the difference internally? I reviewed a few things- like regardless whether an existing track is a 'mono or stereo it will record either type determined by the style of input it's assigned to. There is 'Interleave button that allows routing a stereo track as mono and vise versa. For example as per above, if you track something mono on a 'stereo track, you get a single, centered mono track, just as assigning stereo input to a mono' gets you a stereo pair. Is there something else I'm missing? There's meters, the little single or double wave icon up by the track number?
post edited by mixsit - 2008/12/27 15:01:43
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bitflipper
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/27 16:16:37
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There are two aspects to this question: the physical differences between mono and stereo files, and the difference between how SONAR routes mono and stereo files.
First, the file itself. It is going to be either mono or stereo, and you cannot change that without bouncing. Internally, it contains two alternating, independent sets of wave data, with alternating left and right samples in the stream - hence the term "interleaved". Once you record a stereo track, it remains an interleaved stereo track even if you set the SONAR track interleave to mono. Conversely, a mono track remains a mono track even if the SONAR track interleave is set to stereo. SONAR knows the file interleave, having read it from the file header, and you cannot fool it into thinking it's something else.
The second aspect is how SONAR actually routes the file's sample data during playback. Internally, every track is effectively stereo! It has to be, in order to have the flexibility of sending mono data through stereo effects and stereo data through mono effects and either to a stereo bus. In fact, it's quite possible to inadvertently switch a mono track to stereo or vice versa, simply by routing it through a mono-only or stereo-only plugin.
So if it's all stereo internally, what's the point of the Interleave button? All it does is tell SONAR to either keep the two sides separate - if possible - or to mix them together up front.
When a stereo track is routed to a stereo bus or a stereo effect, left goes to left and right goes to right. When a mono track goes to a stereo bus, the data is routed to both sides of the stereo bus. Setting the mono track's interleave to stereo does not change this behavior; SONAR knows that it's a mono (single-stream) file and basically ignores the interleave button (and be glad it's that smart - imagine what garbage you'd end up with if SONAR treated it like a stereo file, sending every other sample to the left and right!).
But what about when you have a stereo track and select a mono interleave? SONAR can only treat this one way, which is to sum left and right and then send them to their respective busses. Sometimes this happens inadvertently, such as when you insert a mono-only track effect, in which case you always get a mono output even with a stereo wave and the interleave set to stereo.
...Ah, my ride's here, gotta go. I'll read what I just wrote when I get back and see if it made any sense at all. My apologies if it didn't.
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CJaysMusic
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/27 20:42:22
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When you make a new track what makes it come up as a mono' or stereo? It depends on your input selection and how you configure the interleave button. If you select a mono input and set the interleave to mono, then you have a mono track .Same thing for stereo inputs and setting the interleave for stereo Cj
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mixsit
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/28 01:45:16
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ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic
When you make a new track what makes it come up as a mono' or stereo?
It depends on your input selection and how you configure the interleave button. If you select a mono input and set the interleave to mono, then you have a mono track .Same thing for stereo inputs and setting the interleave for stereo
Cj
Yeah I got that, I said as much in my post actually. So Bitfliper maybe correct that all the tracks need to be able to process either, and it's stereo or mono content that's different -which seems logical enough -so that might leave pan rules maybe  .. and the the little 'wave icon? Hmm. So I did another little test and saw something I just hadn't noticed before. The icon isn't set by the input assignment it reflects what's recorded in the track. When you record some stereo content -or even add some stereo content to a mono track, the icon shifts to 'stereo, but it doesn't go the other way around.
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Danny Danzi
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/28 10:05:44
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
Setting the mono track's interleave to stereo does not change this behavior Actually bit, it DOES change the behavior on my end. If I record a mono guitar track and insert a Sonitus delay set to ping-pong on to the track itself, that delay won't ping-pong side to side in stereo unless the stero interleave button is set for stereo. If I am completely misunderstanding you, please forgive me as I know better than to try and correct you on this stuff. ;)
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bitflipper
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/28 14:10:24
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If I record a mono guitar track and insert a Sonitus delay set to ping-pong on to the track itself, that delay won't ping-pong side to side in stereo unless the stero interleave button is set for stereo Interesting. I'll have to try that. I use stereo delays all the time on mono tracks and I've never noticed that behavior. My favorite technique on lead instruments is a short delay on the side the instrument is panned to, and a longer delay on the opposite side. Are you panning the track hard, or is it centered?
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mixsit
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/28 15:19:03
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
If I record a mono guitar track and insert a Sonitus delay set to ping-pong on to the track itself, that delay won't ping-pong side to side in stereo unless the stero interleave button is set for stereo
Interesting. I'll have to try that. I use stereo delays all the time on mono tracks and I've never noticed that behavior. My favorite technique on lead instruments is a short delay on the side the instrument is panned to, and a longer delay on the opposite side. Are you panning the track hard, or is it centered?
Aren't the interleaves' on your mono tracks 'stereo -it's apparently by default, easy to not notice. Hell, the reason I went tweaky on this in the first place.. here I am going along since Pro8' then realizing some basic' is lacking. 
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Swinhart
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/28 16:39:59
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Hey Guys,
I have noticed that if you record a mono signal on a stereo setting and have the mono signal panned left or right, it plays that way. If the same signal is played with the opposite pan, it comes out mono!! I always try to record my tracks in centered mono where I have the option of panning either way during mixdown.
I have an interesting observation along these same lines. How come most of the newest CD's do not have enough (IHMO) stereo spread? I know the soloist, bass, kick, and snare are usually centered and some of the other instruments are also centered! Strange! I'm a stereo nut and love that spread, but on some CD's there isn't any? Have you guys noticed that? Is it my imagination? Is that an effect of the PT group that I don't want? Do we need to start another different thread on this topic? Just wondering...
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mixsit
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/28 17:03:19
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ORIGINAL: Swinhart
Hey Guys,
I have noticed that if you record a mono signal on a stereo setting and have the mono signal panned left or right, it plays that way. If the same signal is played with the opposite pan, it comes out mono!! .. What do you mean 'opposite pan?
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Danny Danzi
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/28 21:23:46
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
If I record a mono guitar track and insert a Sonitus delay set to ping-pong on to the track itself, that delay won't ping-pong side to side in stereo unless the stero interleave button is set for stereo
Interesting. I'll have to try that. I use stereo delays all the time on mono tracks and I've never noticed that behavior. My favorite technique on lead instruments is a short delay on the side the instrument is panned to, and a longer delay on the opposite side. Are you panning the track hard, or is it centered?
Hi bit, the track is centered. Now see, you might not notice this IF you are using a stereo bus for your effect. My procedure explaining this instance is if you literally bring in an effect on the track itself to the effects bin. :) I don't do this often, but for example...rig up a HAAS effect delay on a mono track panned center. As long as your mono interleave, you shouldn't hear the HAAS. As soon as you go stereo interleave, you'll hear it.
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2008/12/28 21:27:07
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bitflipper
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/28 22:13:04
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What do you use for the Haas effect? A standard delay or a plugin specifically for that?
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Danny Danzi
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/28 22:48:44
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I shall hook you up with a screenshot brotherflipper. Gimme 10 mins....I'm finishing up something. You're gonna dig this. All done with a Sonitus delay. ;)
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Danny Danzi
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/28 23:36:37
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bit, I'm afraid I owe you an apology Sir. It is just as you explained it...the stereo interleave button does not make a difference even in my example I was trying to talk about. I swear to you man, there was a version of Sonar or Cakewalk that made me have to enable stereo in a mono track to get the effects used on that track to be in stereo. But here in this example I tried to discuss, I used S5 on my internet machine to grab the HAAS plug settings. When I tried it with a guitar track, stereo interleave made no difference in the effects being mono...it stayed stereo even with mono interleave enabled. So again, please accept my apology for opening my mouth here. I know for a fact one of these versions acted the way I described....this is why I mentioned it and have been conditioned to use stereo interleave even on mono tracks as long as there is an effect on the insert OF that track. The Cake guys must have changed this in one of the versions....because now anything stereo in the bin on a track is stereo...the way it should be. Unless I've been wrong all these years and just was missing something. Anyway, here is a good effect to try which will stop you from cloning tracks and sliding them. This really works well and I'll give you 2 ways to try it. You'll dig this, I promise.  As you can see, the right side delay is relatively small in size. Increasing it will of course make the stereo more apparent but the downside is, the part will not longer sound as tight and like 2 guitar players in one pass. Put this delay on one guitar track and leave the track panned centered. Create another guitar track that is doubling the same thing...don't clone it, and then add this same delay in that track. Leave it panned centered. This time though, on this delay on the new track, change the delay times around. The 0.1 to the right this time, and 22 on the left...or you can even increase the 22ms to a 24. Anything more than like 28 and it statrts to sound too loose. You can also alter the 0.1, but the more you do that one, more out of time your original signal is. You can also run the original (like this picture) on one guitar track, and then create another guitar track and just leave it mono right down the middle with no stereo processing. This makes for a really nice spread on the delay guitars and your mono, down the center guitar is pumping and keeping things tight and centered. Just some food for thought. Again, sorry about chiming in here when you were correct from the beginning. :)
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2008/12/28 23:40:21
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mixsit
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 01:14:20
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ORIGINAL: Danny Danzi
bit, I'm afraid I owe you an apology Sir. It is just as you explained it...the stereo interleave button does not make a difference even in my example I was trying to talk about. I swear to you man, there was a version of Sonar or Cakewalk that made me have to enable stereo in a mono track to get the effects used on that track to be in stereo. But here in this example I tried to discuss, I used S5 on my internet machine to grab the HAAS plug settings. When I tried it with a guitar track, stereo interleave made no difference in the effects being mono...it stayed stereo even with mono interleave enabled. .. Ok, that's odd. When I tried this morning- mono track/Sonitus stereo delay insert- that went mono with the interleave switched. Sonar 6 here. By the way on the Haas delay- Not that I use the technique much, but why not .1 ms both sides, then ramp up the 'panned away side? +.2 to about 2ms gets you the full pan range IIRC. Thanks. Wayne
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bitflipper
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 10:57:31
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Thanks for the detailed example, Danny. I'm going to give your method a try. I've always used the clone-and-nudge method, which works but is always a little hit-and-miss. Using the plugin would make it easier to tweak and experiment.
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 11:01:52
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what happens to a mono guitar track if you run it through Guitar Rig on the two interleave choices?
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Danny Danzi
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 11:02:39
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ORIGINAL: mixsit
ORIGINAL: Danny Danzi
bit, I'm afraid I owe you an apology Sir. It is just as you explained it...the stereo interleave button does not make a difference even in my example I was trying to talk about. I swear to you man, there was a version of Sonar or Cakewalk that made me have to enable stereo in a mono track to get the effects used on that track to be in stereo. But here in this example I tried to discuss, I used S5 on my internet machine to grab the HAAS plug settings. When I tried it with a guitar track, stereo interleave made no difference in the effects being mono...it stayed stereo even with mono interleave enabled. ..
Ok, that's odd. When I tried this morning- mono track/Sonitus stereo delay insert- that went mono with the interleave switched. Sonar 6 here.
By the way on the Haas delay- Not that I use the technique much, but why not .1 ms both sides, then ramp up the 'panned away side? +.2 to about 2ms gets you the full pan range IIRC.
Thanks.
Wayne
LOL mix, see, I told ya it did it in one of the versions! I knew I wasn't completely nuts! Hahaha! I got 6 on my recording box, but didn't try it. The example I did earlier was using S5 as I mentioned. If any of the Cake staff are reading, what versions support the interleave button making a difference in the effects that are placed in the bin on the actual track? 5 didn't make a difference and was just as bitflipper said. Ah, nevermind....I'm gonna fire up S6-8 and see if it does it on any of those. But I sooo know *some* version of Cake or Sonar made me use stereo interleave on a mono track to make the stereo effect in the bin go in stereo. :-Þ
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2008/12/29 11:06:30
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Danny Danzi
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 11:05:37
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ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
what happens to a mono guitar track if you run it through Guitar Rig on the two interleave choices?
It should be mono if mono interleave is on, stereo if stereo interleave is on, Mike. But this of course will depend on whether or not you are using the effects inside GR. Distortion isn't a stereo effect, so you will hear 0 difference if there are no effects being used. The effects used form stereo imaging and this is where stereo interleave will assist. :) Unless I am misunderstanding your question?
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2008/12/29 11:18:50
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Danny Danzi
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 11:14:19
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
Thanks for the detailed example, Danny. I'm going to give your method a try. I've always used the clone-and-nudge method, which works but is always a little hit-and-miss. Using the plugin would make it easier to tweak and experiment.
You're quite welcome bit. This should work out really well for you. If you have the Blue Tubes bundle and have the 3d delay, try that one....it's a little more spacious sounding. Like, it really simulates 2 guys playing at the same time. I use this for quickie ideas when I don't feel like doubling a track. However, you can really get some sick stuff happening if you try a few configurations of it. For example, here's another I like to do that works really well and gives me a really full sound. I sometimes record with effects destructively. This HAAS thing is one of them. I set my delay up the same way you saw in the plug pic I gave you for my first take. The guitar gets recorded mono with this effect at 0.1 for the left side. I then record another track at 22ms for the right side. These 2 guitars get panned hard left, hard right. Now, record 2 more guitars but flip flop the delay times and pan the one that is 22ms to the left, and the 0.1 to the right and I now pan the both of them at 70 left, 70 right or even tighter. No less than 60% L/R though. This gives me a VERY unique sound...especially for extreme overdrive stuff. It's like the guitars are everywhere. So you'll have 4 tracks of guitar total and full panning. I like this method due to the pan control you get as opposed to having one track act as a stereo HAAS. This way, you are now running 4 tracks of HAAS and have the pan control to sit them anywhere you want. It's pretty cool I think....especially if you are layering guitar tracks. This is a good way to do it if you use 2 different amps. Have your main guitar sound be the tighter pan, and fly in the wider panned HAAS guitars on a chorus part or something so it hits a little harder. :) Good luck...let me know how you fair with this. I'm gonna fire up S6-S8 and see if this stereo interleave thing works the way I had originally said and see if I get what mix is reporting. :) I'll be in touch shortly.
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Danny Danzi
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 11:53:52
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Ok mix, here's the deal with that interleave thing. I figured it out. It has nothing to do with a version of Sonar, it's the delay we choose to use. The Sonitus delay will operate in stereo regardless of where the interleave button is set. Now, add in a Blue Tubes 3d delay and it is just as I explained originally. Mono interleave will give you mono delay....stereo interleave, stereo delay. Same results as the BT with the TC delay. Whew, I knew I wasn' going crazy. :) They all worked this way in Sonar 5-8. Sonitus was stereo no matter what at all times. :)
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bitflipper
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 14:24:21
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It makes sense that it's ultimately up to the plugin as to whether its output will be mono or stereo. I know some plugins give you some control over that, such as Perfect Space. But I'm sure glad it's possible to use stereo effects on mono sources!
It sounds like the Blue Tubes delay intentionally maintains the interleave and configures its own output based on what it receives. I'll bet if you precede it with a stereo effect, then the Blue Tubes delay would output stereo because it sees stereo on its inputs. That would tell you if it's acting on the track interleave setting or what it's getting at its inputs.
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 19:01:38
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ORIGINAL: Danny Danzi
ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
what happens to a mono guitar track if you run it through Guitar Rig on the two interleave choices?
It should be mono if mono interleave is on, stereo if stereo interleave is on, Mike. But this of course will depend on whether or not you are using the effects inside GR. Distortion isn't a stereo effect, so you will hear 0 difference if there are no effects being used. The effects used form stereo imaging and this is where stereo interleave will assist. :) Unless I am misunderstanding your question?
Danny, did you try it? I assume you have Guitar Rig LE but, maybe you are still on 7?
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mixsit
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 21:41:21
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ORIGINAL: Danny Danzi
Ok mix, here's the deal with that interleave thing. I figured it out. It has nothing to do with a version of Sonar, it's the delay we choose to use. The Sonitus delay will operate in stereo regardless of where the interleave button is set. Now, add in a Blue Tubes 3d delay and it is just as I explained originally. Mono interleave will give you mono delay....stereo interleave, stereo delay. Same results as the BT with the TC delay. Whew, I knew I wasn' going crazy. :) They all worked this way in Sonar 5-8. Sonitus was stereo no matter what at all times. :)
Yep it's plug dependent, and my apologies on the Sonitus delay thing -it was the Cake Fx Chorus' I had patched into a snare track -sounding like short delay. Odd thing too (or not..) of the three Sonitus effects, 'Mod does follow interleave. 'Cake Fx, Lex, and UAD Dreamverb do. Enough of that.
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/29 22:10:44
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ORIGINAL: mixsit
ORIGINAL: Danny Danzi
Ok mix, here's the deal with that interleave thing. I figured it out. It has nothing to do with a version of Sonar, it's the delay we choose to use. The Sonitus delay will operate in stereo regardless of where the interleave button is set. Now, add in a Blue Tubes 3d delay and it is just as I explained originally. Mono interleave will give you mono delay....stereo interleave, stereo delay. Same results as the BT with the TC delay. Whew, I knew I wasn' going crazy. :) They all worked this way in Sonar 5-8. Sonitus was stereo no matter what at all times. :)
Yep it's plug dependent, and my apologies on the Sonitus delay thing -it was the Cake Fx Chorus' I had patched into a snare track -sounding like short delay.
Odd thing too (or not..) of the three Sonitus effects, 'Mod does follow interleave. 'Cake Fx, Lex, and UAD Dreamverb do.
Enough of that.
That's kinda what I was getting at. It's real easy to see in Guitar Rig that it acts weird if you don't use the stereo option... it's plug-in dependent.
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Danny Danzi
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2008/12/30 04:25:03
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ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
ORIGINAL: Danny Danzi
ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
what happens to a mono guitar track if you run it through Guitar Rig on the two interleave choices?
It should be mono if mono interleave is on, stereo if stereo interleave is on, Mike. But this of course will depend on whether or not you are using the effects inside GR. Distortion isn't a stereo effect, so you will hear 0 difference if there are no effects being used. The effects used form stereo imaging and this is where stereo interleave will assist. :) Unless I am misunderstanding your question?
Danny, did you try it? I assume you have Guitar Rig LE but, maybe you are still on 7?
Actually I didn't Mike because I rarely use guitar type plugs. But when I've used Amplitube Metal, Revalver and a few others I have, the stereo effects used in the actual patch is what dictates whether it will be in stereo or not most times. Is there something specific you want me to try for ya bro? Want me to just put GR on a track and see what happens when I toggle the interleave? I'll do that anyway and report back to you. :)
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montezuma
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2009/01/22 22:28:32
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So...I record an acoustic guitar with one condenser microphone. Should I put the interleave to mono or stereo?....and why?
Same thing with a vocal track....interleave to mono or stereo?
I basically thought stereo recording meant that you were using 2 microphones...one to a track....unless you had one of those fancy stereo microphones.
Can you set the track's input to stereo L+R and have both mic inputs record on one track?
So...in summary:
1. So...I record an acoustic guitar with one condenser microphone. Should I put the interleave to mono or stereo?....and why?
2. Same thing with a vocal track....interleave to mono or stereo?
3. Can you set the track's input to stereo L+R and have both mic inputs record on one track?
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bitflipper
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2009/01/22 23:26:34
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If it's a mono source, set the interleave to mono. If it's a stereo source, set the interleave to stereo. If you don't have any track insert effects, it usually doesn't matter which interleave you choose. Yes, you can record a single mic as a stereo track, but there is little benefit and it just wastes disk space. The only benefit is that you can use stereo effects to apply different treatment to each side, e.g. put a delay on one side using the Channel Tools plugin.
post edited by bitflipper - 2009/01/22 23:33:14
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Sonic the Hedgehog
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2009/01/23 00:02:31
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ORIGINAL: Swinhart
Hey Guys,
I have noticed that if you record a mono signal on a stereo setting and have the mono signal panned left or right, it plays that way. If the same signal is played with the opposite pan, it comes out mono!! I always try to record my tracks in centered mono where I have the option of panning either way during mixdown.
I have an interesting observation along these same lines. How come most of the newest CD's do not have enough (IHMO) stereo spread? I know the soloist, bass, kick, and snare are usually centered and some of the other instruments are also centered! Strange! I'm a stereo nut and love that spread, but on some CD's there isn't any? Have you guys noticed that? Is it my imagination? Is that an effect of the PT group that I don't want? Do we need to start another different thread on this topic? Just wondering...
Good observation! There's some fad these days for ''lesser stereo''. This is in part due to listening to music in cars, in the kitchen while washing your dishes, and restaurants where if you're not seated dead center, you'll miss half the music! So much for technology - we're heading back to mono!
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montezuma
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2009/01/23 05:39:01
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
If it's a mono source, set the interleave to mono. If it's a stereo source, set the interleave to stereo. If you don't have any track insert effects, it usually doesn't matter which interleave you choose. So if I use an audio effect in the effect bin of that mono recorded track....(ie) some of the Sonitus fx have a mono/ stereo button...should I have the mono button on in the Sonitus effect? If I have the mono track recorded and the interleave for that track set to mono...and I send that track to a bus....is it ok for the bus to be stereo? Ultimately if I wanna make a stereo song the master bus would have to be stereo right?
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altima_boy_2001
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RE: We were having this little chat over here about mono and stereo tracks in Sonar..
2009/01/23 06:58:45
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Ultimately if I wanna make a stereo song the master bus would have to be stereo right? Definitely. Edit: You could do something odd like make the Master bus mono, but add in a plugin that forces stereo output (like Sonitus delay) at the end of the FX bin and still get a stereo result since the L/R channels would contain different information.
post edited by altima_boy_2001 - 2009/01/23 07:01:32
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