Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX

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yorolpal
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2011/02/21 11:48:57 (permalink)

Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX

I didn't see anything in the X1b issues fixed list that dealt with this so I'm wondering if I'm the only one who's experiencing this problem.  I've had three projects so far (out of several) that were started in 8.5.3 that I am unable to record new parts into due to crazy random latency issues.  I should preface here by saying I'm running a 64bit Win7 Corei7 3ghz (Jim Roseberry built) machine with 12 gigs ram.  I'm using an M-Audio Fast Track Ultra and running at 2.8 seconds latency at 128 samples.  What happens is that I'll go to record a new chorus section, say, of my bass part which is Trilian triggered by my Alesis QS8 controller.  There will be no audible latency before I press record.  But as soon as I engage record/playback a very noticeable and distracting latency occurs as the bass is being recorded.  So much so that It is impossible to record "in time".  This happened for the first time to me a few weeks ago and Jim suggested I click the "PDC" button on the control bar to solve it.  But here's what happens when I do that:  Once the button has been clicked the latency seems to disappear and the part triggers normally.  However, when I again engage record/play the project plays back with an odd lagging latency for several bars.  Again, making recording the part accurately impossible.  Plus, the PDC button seems to go on and off randomly and, worse, the latency doesn't seem to have any real connection to the state of the button, i.e. sometimes there's no latency when it's "off" and sometimes there's no latency when it's "on".  I believe X1 has 238 samples in the latency compensation dialog thingy.  So far, this has not happened in every project...but again, these are songs from an album project that all were started in 8.5.3 so most recording is done and I'm in to the tweaking and mixing stage.  In any case, is anyone else seeing this behaviour and if so do we know what's causing it and if there's a workaround??
 
Also, does 8.5.3 have a "PDC" button?? I don't recall ever having this problem in any earlier version of Sonar nor pressing such a button to stop it.

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    BlixYZ
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/02/21 12:00:13 (permalink)
    This does not solve the problem, but it is a possible work-around so you can finish the project.
    Try turning off any plugins in the master bus (or even other busses too).
    I have had to do this in large projects when I needed to add softsynth parts at the end.

    I will check back later to see if someone else has a more permanent solution for you.
    #2
    brundlefly
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/02/21 12:13:01 (permalink)

    Also, does 8.5.3 have a "PDC" button?



    Earlier versions did not have a dedicated button for the "PDC Override" function. It was keybound to Ctrl-D, and there's an indicator in the status bar when it's enabled. But it only disables PDC on input-monitored tracks, so existing tracks will still have delay compensation applied to keep them aligned to whatever tracks or buses actually have a delay-inducing plugin on them. SONAR takes care of compensating your new track for the added latency of the tracks your monitoring as you record the new one. but you shouldn't be aware of that latency unless you have some other timing reference that's not being compensated.


    So when you say the playback is lagging, what's the reference? Do you maybe have some recorded tracks that still have input monitoring enabled so PDC is disabled on those tracks, making them out of sync?


    But if you don't experience this with the same project in 8.5.3, X1 may well have some issue. 



    #3
    brundlefly
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/02/21 12:18:09 (permalink)
    Try turning off any plugins in the master bus (or even other busses too). I have had to do this in large projects when I needed to add softsynth parts at the end.



    Turning them off is not enough; you have to remove them from the project altogether. Disabling them does not eliminate the delay, because SONAR has to be ready for you to toggle them back in during playback without a major hiccup. 
    #4
    yorolpal
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/02/21 12:27:22 (permalink)
    There's probably something to the "too many plugs" route as these are large projects with tons of plugs.  I'll try uninstalling all the master bus plugs and see what happens.  I'm so used to being able to do quite literally anything in any amount on this new machine without any problems I may have gotten a little too big for my britches;-)

    https://soundcloud.com/doghouse-riley/tracks 
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    HumbleNoise
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/02/21 13:17:43 (permalink)
    Hey olpal, did you try clicking the FX button on the Control bar first? It may or may not work but it's solved some delay problems for me more than once.

    Humbly Yours

    Larry

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    #6
    yorolpal
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/02/21 13:43:41 (permalink)
    No, but I will now, ol pal.

    https://soundcloud.com/doghouse-riley/tracks 
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    Where you come from is gone...where you thought you were goin to weren't never there...and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it.
     
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    #7
    tbosco
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/04/11 07:52:05 (permalink)
    ...And I thought it was just me doing something wrong.  I have the same issues with latency/compensation delay in X1 if I use Ozone 4 and/or the Transient Shaper plugins.  I'm finding I have to turn most plugins off to record comfortably and in time, and I'm beiginning to wonder, since reading all the posts in this Forum and several others, if it's a Windows 7 thing.  My brother has the same system but WIN Vista and 8.5 Producer, with same plugs, and never has a latency or delay issue... and I am overrun with the problem.  If I have ezdrummer, Addictive Drums, and any other synth module in the rack, Sonar just crashes...and my i5 computer is brand new.  (I'm a DAW newbie BTW).  Looking forward to a fix!
    #8
    tyacko
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/04/11 08:22:23 (permalink)
    I've seen similar latency challenges on a couple of my recent projects.  I assumed it was around adding the new Studer A800 tape emulator I just recently got from UAD.  I assumed it was processor intensive.  When I need to lay down a new track, I turn off the plug-ins globally to reduce the workload.  Never really thought it might be a performance issue in X1.

    Tom

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    Chromatic8
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/04/11 08:33:46 (permalink)
    Hi Yorolpal, I think the slightly different problem I've been having is related to yours and reflects some of the observations others have made.  I have a project that was started in 8.5.3 and mixed to completion.  I decided to use it as a learning platform for X1/ProChannel and remix it and ran into the following:

    1. Unable to play back without lurching and skipping time on some tracks.  The most obvious track was my EZ Drummer track as the sharp transients make it easier to detect.  For example, a hat pattern that looks like X---X---X---X--- would sound like X-----X-X--X---X in one spot and like something else in another.  What I found really curious was that any time I played the song, the timing screwup sounded exactly the same, not like a random drift.  I restarted Sonar, rebooted the computer, no luck.

    2. If I use global FX bypass, the timing is restored to normal but as soon as I re-enable FX, it goes right back to the exact screwiness I was seeing earlier.  This would allow you to record a new track but you'd still have trouble at mixdown.

    3. I deleted all the effects on tracks and buses and then did a fresh remix, adding effects as needed.  The timing stayed correct through the entire process to completion so now I have a workable solution.

    I infer from the highly deterministic and reproducible behavior above that there's a setting stored in the saved project file from 8.5.3 that is interpreted differently by X1, or something that X1 is expecting that is not found in that file.  Might seem obvious but I just want to be clear that I don't believe the timing error is a random process.

    It's a significant irritant in that X1 adds some new capabilities that you might want to apply to some finished or almost finished projects from 8.5.3 but now you can't without committing to a full re-application of effects.  For example, you might want to change the parallel drum compression to use Pro Channel.

    Cake might feel inclined to ignore this problem since our choices are to:
        remix, which only affects a few projects in transition
        finish in 8.5.3

        switch DAWs which would seem to be an overreaction for this one problem alone

    regardless of the choice, the problem goes away if they wait long enough.  Unless of course it's a bug that will manifest differently at a later time if allowed to gestate in our X1-saved project files.

    I figured that if I have to bite off learning the new GUI and new keybindings as well as remix works in process, I might as well learn a couple of new DAWs so that I have a real basis for comparison for if/when I propose changes to Sonar workflows or mechanisms.  I'm finding it both eye-opening (in terms of seeing where Cake found "inspiration" as well as where they've done better) as well as really good for the mind to see familiar problems through a new prism. 

    Best of luck getting this straightened out for your particular case.  I'd be interested to know if deleting all effects and re-applying fixes it for you too.


    Edit to add system specs:
    Athlon XP3000+ (single processor) with 1.5 GB RAM
    DAL CardDeluxe audio interface
    Novation Remote 61II controller

    and project specs:
    24/44.1
    EZ Drummer, PerfectSpace, whatever that old plug was that had Lush Chorus (looked like an old Boss multi-fx), Sonitus EQ/Compressor.
    post edited by Chromatic8 - 2011/04/11 08:38:36

    C8
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    Starise
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/04/11 08:59:28 (permalink)
    yorolpal


    I may have gotten a little too big for my britches;-)


      Happened to me too ;)

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    #11
    soundtweaker
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/04/11 10:05:29 (permalink)
    Ive noticed on big projects the Sonitus Delay has alot of latency but the new Cakewalk Tempo Delay works fine.
    #12
    yorolpal
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    Re:Weird latency issues in X1 REDUX 2011/04/11 10:06:04 (permalink)
    I'm running a new Focusrite Pro 24 DSP interface now and so far no more BSODs and no more weird latency issues.  I'll keep ya posted.

    https://soundcloud.com/doghouse-riley/tracks 
    https://doghouseriley1.bandcamp.com 
    Where you come from is gone...where you thought you were goin to weren't never there...and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it.
     
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