Beepster
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Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
I understand pretty much every little bit of knowledge put in front of me in regards to audio but MIDI? Ugh... no dice. Just spent a few hours trying to make the bank, patch, channel thingies on some MIDI channels DO something... ANYTHING but the only thing that I managed to make happen was completely turn off the sound... oh and I kind of figured out the channel arpeggiator... kind of.
Oh well. I guess I'll just have to stick to loading synths and using their property pages to find stuff I like then use that. Meh... I tried.
Seriously you guys who do this stuff all the time must be savants or something.
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garrigus
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:13:30
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Those parameters are mainly used with external, hardware synths. They don't always work with soft synths because soft synths usually require loading samples. So you have to use the soft synth interface to load patches. In addition, many soft synth are only single-timbral, so they don't require you to mess with MIDI channels. A multitimbral synth like the TTS-1, however, supports all 16 MIDI channels, as well as banks and patches, via the Track Inspector. Scott -- Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com * Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks * Author of the Cakewalk Sonar ProAudioTutor video tutorial series: http://garrigus.com/?ProAudioTutor * Publisher of the DigiFreq free music technology newsletter: http://digifreq.com/?DigiFreq * Publisher of the NewTechReview free consumer technology newsletter: http://newtechreview.com/?NewTechReview
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:25:54
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Thanks, Scott. I was actually trying all this with the TTS but nada. However I think something is fishy with my TTS installation. Even using the properties page I couldn't get it to change sounds so I opened up the manual to see if I was missing something but nope... the sound just wouldn't change. Very odd.
Anyway, thanks for the insight on the external thing. Maybe that and the combo of a buggy TTS is what the problem is. I don't think I really need to know that stuff to do what I want but I'm trying to be as thorough as possible. I think I'm just going to skim the rest of this section and maybe come back to it. Can't waste time on stuff that just isn't sinking in. It'll only frustrate me.
Cheers.
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dubdisciple
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:32:13
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Like SCott said, it's more practical for use with hardware than softsynths. It's usually easier to have a second instance of a soft synth open than trying to mess around with patch changes.
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Guitarpima
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:32:41
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Midi channels work with TTS-1.
Think of it like phone lines. An operater has to route call to the proper channels. At least in the old days operators did.
Some synths use channels. The Aria player, IK Multimedia synths and probably many others do as well. For the most part, it's not needed.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:34:46
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Okay... that's making sense. I did try briefly to get two instances of Dim Pro to trigger different sounds at the same from my controller with no luck but I didn't try very hard. Maybe I'll take another look at that. Thanks.
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Bub 
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:36:35
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Hi Beepster,
Another thing to keep in mind is, TTS-1's output can be funky if you have your project settings higher than 44.1kHz.
You have to go in to TTS-1's options and select 'Light Load Mode', then it will work at higher sample rates.
Another thing to remember is, 'Light Load Mode' is not sticky. IOW ... every time you close your project and re-open it, you will have to go back in and re-select 'Light Load Mode'.
Hope this helps.
Bub
Edit: Beagle is right in post #9 ... TTS-1 won't work at all if your project is set to 88.2kHz, even with 'Light Load Mode' enabled.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:37:02
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So essentially I just spun my wheels all afternoon. lol
I probably shouldn't be so OCD about this stuff. Perhaps it's time I just start making some tunes again before I go insane.
;-)
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Beagle
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:37:19
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Beepster
Thanks, Scott. I was actually trying all this with the TTS but nada. However I think something is fishy with my TTS installation. Even using the properties page I couldn't get it to change sounds so I opened up the manual to see if I was missing something but nope... the sound just wouldn't change. Very odd.
Anyway, thanks for the insight on the external thing. Maybe that and the combo of a buggy TTS is what the problem is. I don't think I really need to know that stuff to do what I want but I'm trying to be as thorough as possible. I think I'm just going to skim the rest of this section and maybe come back to it. Can't waste time on stuff that just isn't sinking in. It'll only frustrate me.
Cheers.
properties page of TTS-1 or of the MIDI track? you can change the bank, channel & patch on the face of TTS-1 but that won't necessarily change the patch on the MIDI track once you hit play (depending on the MIDI events list) from my experience TTS-1 isn't buggy. the only thing I know of that is a problem with it is the fact that it won't run in 88k sampling rate (which doesn't bother me). also, don't forget that you should be choosing banks and patches from the PRESET menus, not from the USER menus unless you've got some customized settings saved in the user ones.
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:38:19
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Well that would explain it, Bub. Ha... no way I could have known that, eh. Cheers.
I'm shaking my head here. lulz
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:40:28
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Well crap... now I'm looking at my project and it's 44.1/16bit.
Weird. Oh well, I don't intend to use TTS anyway. Just thought it would be a good synth to learn this stuff with because of the multichannel multitimbral whatsamawhosits.
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dubdisciple
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:42:47
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tts is good for that sort of thing if you are just curious. Not sure how much practical value you will get out of it.
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Bub
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:42:49
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Beepster
Well that would explain it, Bub. Ha... no way I could have known that, eh. Cheers.
I'm shaking my head here. lulz
In case you didn't see my edit to my post ... Beagle is right, 88.2kHz won't work at all, even if 'Light Load Mode' is enabled. I still use TTS-1 for quite a few things. There's some oddball percussion in there that isn't in SD3 or Dim Pro, and I still say the Upright Bass in TTS-1 is the best I've ever heard. You can go from subtle boominess to loud clacking on the fretboard depending on velocity settings. Pair it up with one of the Pro Channel comps and oh my. It's really great IMO.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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dubdisciple
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:47:32
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This thread has motivated me to break out my old Alesis MMt8 sequencer.
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dmbaer
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:51:36
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Beepster
I understand pretty much every little bit of knowledge put in front of me in regards to audio but MIDI? Ugh... no dice.
You might try reading this article by Ethan Winer ... a fine writer and teacher. Haven't read this particular one myself, but it's not likely to be a waste of your time. http://audioundone.com/free-download-midi-basics-by-ethan-winer
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John
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:55:11
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MIDI is a language and a protocol that was meant to connect two instruments together. Its actually simple but powerful. To have a good understanding of MIDI one needs to study it independently of Sonar. I would get a book that is only about MIDI. I can help but its a large subject and not forum friendly.
It has grown form its early roots to become the computer language of music.
Musical Instrument Digital Interface. It is used in things other than music too. Heck if you think about it my Mackie Control uses MIDI to control Sonar. That is a machine talking to a machine. No music is produced. Other protocols have been used in the past and they all came up wanting to control a sequencer. Anybody remember Mlan?
Than there is GM. General MIDI which is what we use most often in working with synths. GM is a set of guide lines that allow one synth to understand another one. But not exactly. A GM synth has to follow the GM spec. Most synths now don't completely. They kind of pick and choose what they want to support.
I'm being simplistic but overall that is what MIDI is. One big thing to understand about MIDI is its relatively easy to convert MIDI to notation. Where audio is very hard to do that. One reason some of the first MIDI sequencers for computers used notation not the now familiar PRV.
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:57:43
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Well you guys have certainly given me a bit of a seedling on what's up so that's good. I think it's gonna have to sit in tha back of my mind and grow for a while though. I'm thinking to really get to meat of things I'm gonna have to read through the TTS manual or perhaps even better hook up my DX-7 to see what happens with that.
As always you guys keep me from getting totally stuck on stuff. Cheers.
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daveny5
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 15:58:30
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Are you trying to use it to drive external devices or just softsynths? What are you trying to get MIDI to do for you? If its just controlling softsynths, keep in mind most softsynths only allow you to use one voice per instance of the softsynth. The TTS-1 is the exception in that it allows up to 16 different voices (1 per channel) simultaneously. So if you're using it to play some General MIDI files, you just have to assign each track's output to the TTS-1, select a different channel for each different sound, and assign the sounds via the Bank and Patch parameters on that track. Be careful if you're using someone else's MIDI files because they often have patch changes embedded in the track and that can cause the TTS-1 to do things you weren't expecting.
post edited by daveny5 - 2013/01/08 16:05:09
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:03:39
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I get the general concepts of MIDI and stuff (notes, velocity, controllers, etc...) but it seems when getting right down to setting up these patches and banks it ain't happening but as has been pointed out I'm obviously trying to change stuff that isn't even there in the first place. I really think I'm gonna have to go old school with the DX-7 to fully understand what's up. In the meantime though the internal synths will do everything I want. I just absolutely hate not knowing something... even more so when I'm trying to read about it and the info just ain't penetrating my thick skull. lol
I'll get it eventually though. I'm stubborn like that.
Thanks again guys.
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M_Glenn_M
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:06:48
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I sympathize as I'm just starting out with MIDI.
I like the TTS-1. Easy to learn the basics and a good idea to get familiar with it before moving on. (I also like the SI instruments)
First off it seems the order of things is important.
1.You do have to connect your input device first
2.Then boot up Sonar and set preferences to find it.
3.Then run a new TTS-1 and it will find it and do it all.
I spent hours dicking around with settings before I learned this one.
In any case it seems common enough for Midi in Sonar to drop out or stop playing which compounds the confusion in the earliest stages. You think you did something wrong.
I love the editing in PRV. I mostly get it now. It's very fast and easy to add and change everything.
There are some good videos on it.
Producer Exp x1d Win XP, intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM Nvidia gforce 8500 GT BR800 controller , DR880 drum machine. GR20 guitar synth, Alesis QX25 KRK 6 + 10" sub. Sennheiser HD280pro cans 2 Yamaki acoustics, Korean Strat, 60's Jazzmaster, 60's BF Deluxe Reverb,
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daveny5
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:07:11
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The DX-7 is not a general MIDI synth and will not be all that easy to setup. Its not multi-timbral so it can only play one sound at a time. You need to get an INS file for it and use that to help navigate the banks.
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:07:36
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daveny5
Are you trying to use it to drive external devices or just softsynths? What are you trying to get MIDI to do for you?
I was just trying to see what all the options menus on the MIDI tracks did. More of an educational exercise than anything imperative to my productions. It really may be time for me to step back from the manual for a bit and compose something again. Kind of thinking an electronic based tune using some MIDI grooves, some PRV, some controller input and topped of with some live guitar/vox. That way I'm covering a whole crapload of concepts in one song. Cheers.
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SteveGriffiths
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:09:18
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I must admit I am quite fond of TTS as a convenient starting buide when I am trying out ideas, or I'm using an existing piece of midi. Once I decide to go ahead, I will reroute each midi source track to some more specific - SD3, Dimension, Korg Microstation etc., and replace bass, guitars etc., with real ones. It is surprising how much of the TTS ends up in the finished product. So well work setting up one time. You might open a fresh project, drop TTS 1 into the synth rack and use all outputs. Then add 16 midi tracks, Quick group them to point to the TTS and then set each to a midi channel 1-16. Before even picking instruments, if you pick each track in turn, and play a note you should get something out. At that point pick a patch on each track (10 is traditionally drums) and see what you get. Usually I will go to to setup options on TTS, and group things to the 4 outputs - Drums, Bass, Guitars and Keys. Add whatever audio tracks you typically use for vocals and instruments, save it as a template and you have a quick and dirty song creation project. Cheers Grif Beepster
Well crap... now I'm looking at my project and it's 44.1/16bit.
Weird. Oh well, I don't intend to use TTS anyway. Just thought it would be a good synth to learn this stuff with because of the multichannel multitimbral whatsamawhosits.
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:10:42
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daveny5
The DX-7 is not a general MIDI synth and will not be all that easy to setup. Its not multi-timbral so it can only play one sound at a time. You need to get an INS file for it and use that to help navigate the banks.
Yeah, Aussie Jeff was explaining some of that to me a while ago and gave me some links. Didn't know about the non multi timbral though but even if I can get a MIDI file sent out to it and then try to send controller info to Sonar with it that might be a good lesson... or perhaps make my beard a little more gray. ;-)
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:13:20
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So well work setting up one time. You might open a fresh project, drop TTS 1 into the synth rack and use all outputs. Then add 16 midi tracks, Quick group them to point to the TTS and then set each to a midi channel 1-16. Before even picking instruments, if you pick each track in turn, and play a note you should get something out. At that point pick a patch on each track (10 is traditionally drums) and see what you get. Usually I will go to to setup options on TTS, and group things to the 4 outputs - Drums, Bass, Guitars and Keys. That is exactly what I was attempting to do but just couldn't get it happening. Good to know the initial vision was correct... I was just borking something up along the way. Thanks.
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Bub
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:31:05
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Another thing you can do to wrap your head around it is, go online and get a pre-made midi file. There's millions of free ones. Create a new project and just load TTS-1, then drag the midi file in to track view. Kind of reverse engineering so to speak. Remember ... drums are always Channel 10. #4 here is a good example.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:41:51
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Didn't read the posts between the OP and here.....
Many of the synths with sample libraries built in..... (Cakewalk Sound Center...and others, do not use the bank, patch part of the window. Changing those settings really doesn't accomplish much since nothing is affected by them.
TTS is one that does. TTS will not work properly until you get those things set up correctly. My web site has a few things on TTS and using those parameters.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Beepster
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:43:28
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Ha! I just figured out how to trigger multiple synths at once. I had to go into Preferences > MIDI-Playback and Recording and uncheck Always Echo Current MIDI Track THEN enable Echo on the extra tracks.
Yeesh. Well at least I figured that out. Now I can nerd out on multiple sounds at once. Cool.
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dubdisciple
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:44:30
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http://midiworld.com/ is another good source. Classical music files are good for this sort of thing because it is genre that could conceivably need more than 16 instruments and thus require patch changes.
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SuperG
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Re:Welp... I still have no idea how the heck MIDI channels work. :-/
2013/01/08 16:51:05
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dubdisciple
http://midiworld.com/ is another good source. Classical music files are good for this sort of thing because it is genre that could conceivably need more than 16 instruments and thus require patch changes.
True. classical music will give you a good midi workout! I like to take a well-composed piece that's maybe, patched up for general midi, but the tracks are written for correct orchestration - and redo it with a orchestral synth.
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