tbosco
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What Has Happened????????
I'm wondering what has happened in the "SONGS Forum"..... I've been away for nearly 2 years and finally back in my Studio. Back 2 years ago when someone published a new song in that Forum, at least 20 or 30 folks (usually even more!) would jump on it like ducks on June bugs. You would get all kinds of comments, critiques, etc, both good bad, right, wrong, or indifferent. Usually I found those comments to be constructive.
Now, it seems hardly anyone writes comments or receives comments, except for a certain few. What's up? I have posted 2 brand new tunes in the last month and have received a total of 6 comments. (Not counting my old "Sonar Additional Content Song" which I re-published). I use those comments to try to improve my craft, and 2 years ago, there were always folks with great suggestions. I learned a lot from some harsh criticisms back then.....gotta take the good with the bad! And of course there were lots of compliments as well.
By the way, I wasn't in jail the last 2 years... LOL... relationship madness, selling/buying new house, etc...got married....
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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jamesg1213
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/16 13:48:59
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tbosco
I'm wondering what has happened in the "SONGS Forum"..... I've been away for nearly 2 years
That's what happened.  A LOT of people have gone away. On the other hand, there's a guy with obvious mental health issues who has attracted 8000 views on his thread, so someone's watching... Edit: also, a quick scan down the first page at Songs shows me at least 12 posters who rarely, if ever, comment on other people's stuff. There y'go.
post edited by jamesg1213 - 2015/03/16 14:18:06
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tbosco
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/16 16:08:51
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James,
I too have noticed a lot of the old names have apparently disappeared... Hope all is well with them.
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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jamesg1213
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/16 16:17:16
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☄ Helpfulby jbow 2015/03/16 17:32:59
Quite a few of the old regulars now use Soundcloud in a similar way, commenting on each others tunes. No mix critiques there though, just praise, so it doesn't really appeal to me.
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paulo
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/16 16:31:58
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tbosco
James,
I too have noticed a lot of the old names have apparently disappeared... Hope all is well with them.
I've always assumed that they are ok and just got fed up of the way it has become as too many seemed to give up on it at around the same time, which is a great shame. I used to spend many a happy sunday afternoon working my way through whether or not I had something of my own to share, but right or wrong I can't be doing with people who only ever participate in their own threads which seem to have become the majority. I did venture in a few weeks ago and left a few comments (all constructive / positive) and almost all of those haven't even been acknowleged by the OP's. That's a new low for me, people who can't even be bothered to participate in their own threads ! jamesg1213
On the other hand, there's a guy with obvious mental health issues who has attracted 8000 views on his thread,
7980 of them by the OP I suspect. Personally, I think that guy is just a WUM having a laugh at those who try to take him seriously.
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jamesg1213
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/16 16:48:05
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paulo
jamesg1213
On the other hand, there's a guy with obvious mental health issues who has attracted 8000 views on his thread,
7980 of them by the OP I suspect. Personally, I think that guy is just a WUM having a laugh at those who try to take him seriously.
You may be right, but that's possibly even sadder.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/16 19:26:45
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I had honestly never visited the Songs forum up until becoming a forum host, and have admittedly not done much better since.
I'll try to skip the novel in progress thread (I had read many of the volumes from the OP in that one) and spend time listening to postings of folks who are really interested more in feedback and constructive criticism. I have to go cook some ribs, but in between it all I promise to check out some of the songs and provide some feedback to the posters.
Bob Bone
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tbosco
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 05:52:02
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Someone say ribs???? Sniff Sniff....
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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Guitarhacker
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 08:37:43
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☄ Helpfulby kson 2015/04/19 02:02:02
Mostly, these days, I lurk in the songs forum. I listen here and there and really don't have time to listen to all the songs. If a title catches my eye, or I know the poster, I'll jump in and have a go. It's a cross between busy and lazy.... probably not a 50/50 split either.
Lots of the old timers have gone away.... plenty of new folks coming in but times change and things rarely remain the same. Same deal actually in the Music Creator forum.... all the folks who were there when I came in getting back into digital recording are now moved on.... sure there's a few of the old timers but lots of new folks have stepped in to help.
The old saying: "You can never go home again" comes to mind....... after 2 years, things have changed. It's a new neighborhood.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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bitflipper
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 15:06:15
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☄ Helpfulby jamesg1213 2015/03/17 15:17:14
I've been thinking about a way to revive the Songs forum...let me run it by ya and see what you think.
How about a Hall of Fame with links to the very best song submissions. This would be a locked sticky, with a separate thread for nominations. Anybody could nominate a song, even their own Epic Delusion, but it would require being seconded by at least two forum regulars before being added to the HoF thread.
Such a list might encourage more folks to visit the forum, once they see that among all the works-in-progress and close-but-no-cigar submissions there are some truly outstanding gems in there. Stuff they might actually enjoy listening to. More visitors means more submissions and reviews, and more people hearing/critiquing your tunes.
The biggest problem with this idea is that somebody would have to maintain the list on a regular basis, lest a deserving nominee get overlooked. I'd be willing to pitch in for that duty but I wouldn't want sole responsibility for it. But it would be do-able, I think, if a few people could help out by monitoring the nominations thread to let a forum host know about pending additions so the sticky can be updated in a timely manner.
whatcha think?
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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jamesg1213
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 15:15:18
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SongCraft
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 16:08:38
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Its a nice idea Dave however, music is subjective right down to the genre and without categorization may leave a trail of discontentment. It would be far better to include 'All Contributors' (past and present) who have contributed at least i.e. 20 posts and at least posted 1 song in the Songs Forum. The list is in alphabetical order that simply includes: Name and Links (personal and social sites), plus a thoughtful header message of what the Song Forum should be about for example, 'supporting fellow writers/musicians'. I'm sure a 'Contributors' list will be a great inclusion to the Songs Foum. The Sticky post #1 will be the actual list, after that.... anyone who is eligible to be on the list can simply post their details (name and links), but they MUST use the forum's default font, color, size and correct format exactly as is on the list (to make it easier for thread manager to edit i.e. copy/paste) and that will be edited in (post#1) by whoever decides to manage the list. This list (Contributors) can be expand by providing Top-10 Contributors, obviously this elite group of Song Forum dwellers will have the 'most' contributions (posts and song posted, past and present)! Anyway, IMHO a much more solid (fair) system based on 'actual contributions'
post edited by SongCraft - 2015/03/17 16:55:10
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jamesg1213
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 16:31:46
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Sorry Greg, you've lost me there. Not getting that idea at all. Birthdays...?
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SongCraft
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 16:52:10
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jamesg1213
Sorry Greg, you've lost me there. Not getting that idea at all. Birthdays...?
No, not Birthdays, exclude that which was only based on an idea to compile a list. I'll edit my post.
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tbosco
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 17:41:20
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Wow! Lots of creative thinking going on in here! Good stuff. But it sounds a bit complicated and intensive for someone to have to maintain a list (or whatever) of that scope and magnitude. And the whole concept of "good song" is SO subjective. Honestly, the music I create is primarily for me...and it's really cool if other people enjoy it. It doesn't bother me at all if they don't. And my PRIMARY interest in the Songs Forum (and maybe HERE is where creative ideas might be useful..) is how does my MIX sound? I really don't care if you think it's a "good song"...but did I RECORD IT well?? (Of course this is just my opinion, but I think that's what most of the folks want to hear about in the comments, at least I do.) For me it's about the creative, skillful, technical use of SONAR as our DAW of choice and what did we do with it today?
I have reviewed quite a number of songs in the past I really didn't like at all, but the engineering/production/mastering etc was a MASTERPIECE, and I said so. Yeah, it's nice to receive praise, and everyone here seems to do that a lot I've noticed since I've rejoined the group, but I want brutal honesty about what the piece SOUNDS like. And again, even THAT is subjective. But if 12 out of 14 people say they can't hear the bass, or the guitar is behind the beat or out of tune, then THAT is constructive criticism and must be dealt with...to perfect my craft and learn what I need to work on.
My god... it's 5:40 and I haven't had my cocktail..... lol
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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bitflipper
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 17:54:04
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Thanks for giving it some thought, SongCraft. I agree, it could end up being a source of discontent. Seems pretty much everything upsets somebody these days.
There is a sizable subset of forum participants who are convinced their productions are first-rate because they simply lack the prerequisite experience and knowledge to be able to objectively self-evaluate. They don't take criticism well because they honestly believe their masterpieces to be flawless. Fortunately, they are a minority. Most posters are both seeking and offering helpful advice.
I'm not concerned about genre bias. Although I'm no fan of most contemporary genres, that just means I probably wouldn't nominate any EDM or hip-hop tracks. But then, if you're an EDM practitioner you don't want me judging your stuff anyway as I am unqualified. I'm confident that others who are fans would take up the slack and make sure their preferred genres are represented.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bitflipper
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 18:06:19
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tbosco
...the whole concept of "good song" is SO subjective.
I agree. But I think a song could qualify for distinction based on more than one criterion. It could be a mediocre song with extraordinary performances. The mix could show outstanding technical merit, or it could just have world-class lyrics or some imaginative synth programming. Anything that represents a standard of above-average quality in one or more categories.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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SongCraft
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 18:16:20
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Hi Tony,
You raise very important points.
IMHO I believe the lines seem to be blurred between the Techniques and Songs forums so much so that they could be merged into 'one' forum. This would indeed bring more traffic, more participation, more focus on what would definitely be a very useful source of shared knowledge / information.
That said, if that idea goes ahead --- it be more convenient (not having to switch between one forum and another) and usually if there is a song or sample of a song posted it will have the OP comment for example. "Would greatly appreciate advise about the mix. Thanks". That topic is clearly defined in itself. Therefore, I see no problems (no confusion)!
Actually, the more I think about 'Merging the Two Forums', the more beneficial and convenient for everyone... IMHO this is a great solution: Songs and Techniques (forum) AND......
What should be created is, Hall of Techniques (or Fame) (read only forum) this new forum is a collection of great topics (OP) moved from the Techniques forums. Dave, I'm sure a lot of your contributions will be worthy.
So, what ya' all think about that idea?
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tbosco
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 18:22:28
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bitflipper
... It could be a mediocre song with extraordinary performances. The mix could show outstanding technical merit, or it could just have world-class lyrics or some imaginative synth programming. Anything that represents a standard of above-average quality in one or more categories.
I agree. But don't you think it will be a lot of work for someone to maintain the records? So I question the sustainability of the Forum in that respect. Look...I'm no rapper...I HATE rap music. But my ears can tell me if the song is recorded well or not (I think, lol), and my comments on a rap tune in the Forum MIGHT be of value to the poster. So don't put yourself down too much in critiquing an EDM tune. LMAO- I like making that kind of music (EDM) because of the beat and the synths used, and maybe fun to dance to... but I don't know CHIT about it in reality! LOL
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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tbosco
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 19:51:13
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SongCraft
...Actually, the more I think about 'Merging the Two Forums', the more beneficial and convenient for everyone... IMHO this is a great solution: Songs and Techniques (forum) AND......
Playing devil's advocate here a little...... so if a person wanted to know how to more effectively use a compressor on bass, or learn what a Transient Shaper does, or ask someone how to get the Haas Effect, he would be in the same Forum as the 27 guys who wants everyone to hear their latest hit singles? It's kind of like the Song is the sum of the individual Techniques...and a poster usually wants comments on that total product. Whereas the Techniques are individual components or tools used in creating a song...and someone may just need an education in one of the Techniques. Then again, if some panel thinks my Song is good enough, IN SOME ASPECT, whether it be uniqueness, recording quality/professionalism, lyrical quality, catchiness, or just plain like it a lot, it would be cool to have it recognized somewhere.... I feel strongly both ways... LOL
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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ward s
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 20:18:00
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I am one of those new folks. I just wanted to say that I find the song forum to be incredibly valuable, as a teaching/learning tool, as a source of inspiration and encouragement, as a chance to sit in on discussions among people that actually know what they are doing. It's awesome.
I do tend to lurk more than respond, but I try to push myself to contribute. I have such limited knowledge of this stuff, I just don't have much to say beyond, "Hey great tune!" I also try to get a sense of the culture of a place before I jump in and start making jello. But I appreciate when people give me feedback on what I am doing, so I try to oblige.
that's all.
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Rimshot
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 22:23:10
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I think many contributors are being polite in their comments. No one really want to offend the writer/artist and so there is an air of being polite. Sometimes, good honest opinions are made that it reality, are the most helpful to those looking for help.
When I have time to listen and comment, I try to be honest and helpful. It would do no good to just say it sounds great when I know it doesn't.
There are so many talented artists on the song forum that are really good at what they do. Others are not so blessed. So whenever possible, being honest with how you feel about their work would make a bigger difference in the scheme of things than not.
For those like me that don't contribute often enough, I apologize. I do have many many posts in my online experience that have tried to make a difference. I can do better. Just would like to see more honest evals than just a polite response.
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Splat 
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/17 22:47:01
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☄ Helpfulby tbosco 2015/03/18 07:29:34
It seems obvious to me.
Why doesn't the songs forum have the voting facilities (the stars) like the feature requests and the problem reports forum? Every medium has it nowadays.... Youtube, facebook, soundcloud, yada yada.... And they do it to engage...
Cheers..
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tbosco
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/18 07:56:13
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ward s
I am one of those new folks. I just wanted to say that I find the song forum to be incredibly valuable, as a teaching/learning tool, as a source of inspiration and encouragement, as a chance to sit in on discussions among people that actually know what they are doing. It's awesome.
Great comment Ward! That represents what I was trying to get across. Splat- I like the Stars idea a lot too. Quick and dirty. Not very objective or instructional though, but a good way to get a lot of "instant reviews" for people who don't have the time, patience, or ability to make constructive criticisms. Rimshot- I totally agree with you. I see a LOT of praise given in here to work that just doesn't cut it (IMO of course) in order to be "polite". Face it.. I think we all post our work in the Songs forum because we think we have done something worthwhile, something that people should like, something we think is really good, and to get a little praise for our efforts...cuz there is ALWAYS a lot of praise given in there. And I doubt if anyone puts his song up if he thinks (or knows) it really sucks. I also think it's human nature to be more on the "praise" (read- polite) side than the critical (read- rude) side. It takes a little couth and some practice to give negative feedback without making the receiver feel put down, belittled, or harmed in some way, but it CAN be done. I learned the "Sandwich method" when I was working.... you can wrap a negative comment between 2 positive ones and come out not looking like a b-hole. (Geeze...hopefully you can find 2 nice things to say about it...) But there WILL be those times it's a real piece of chit..... LOL So....maybe along with the Stars, there could be several general Remarks checkboxes???
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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Tom Riggs
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/18 08:45:27
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I posted a similar thread a few weeks ago. I had not been in the songs forum for a long while and noticed the same things.
So I have decided to be more active in the songs forum and try to be part of the solution.
By the way I listened to one of your tunes and thought it was quite good.
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dcumpian
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/18 08:49:00
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☄ Helpfulby tbosco 2015/03/18 09:20:10
Voting and stars won't let the poster know why. That's a big part of what the songs forum is all about, in my book.
Regards,
Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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Karyn
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/18 08:50:15
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SongCraft
IMHO I believe the lines seem to be blurred between the Techniques and Songs forums so much so that they could be merged into 'one' forum. This would indeed bring more traffic, more participation, more focus on what would definitely be a very useful source of shared knowledge / information.
The intention of the Techniques forum is to ask questions, or give tips, about specific aspects of production. "How do I get this sound?" or "What exactly should I be doing with an aural exciter at my age?", "How to mix two guitars that both sound the same.." The intention of the Songs forum is as a showcase for your hard work. This often includes Works In Progress, but that's a good way to get feedback on ideas before spending time on something that might be a load of c...
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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Guitarhacker
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/18 08:53:29
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☄ Helpfulby tbosco 2015/03/18 09:23:08
The idea of a dedicated forum to spotlight the "better compositions" is a good idea. It would show off the things that can be done with Sonar.
However, it has to be done right or it simply becomes another version of the SONGS forum.
There would need to be a dedicated forum category for it. I don't think a "sticky" inside the songs forum would work well. Perhaps a SUB FORUM as a sticky in the songs forum would be OK. Is that what you meant?
No one should be able to post a song in it by themselves. That would make it a managed forum only. To get a song placed there would be a true honor representing the quality of the work..... musicianship, writing, recording, production, that went into the song which sets it apart from most other songs. The standards would necessarily need to be "high bar" or in 6 months there would be hundreds of songs in it and then it's no different from the regular songs forum.
Not everyone gets a trophy for writing and recording a song. Which translates to, there has to be rules and criteria that determine what songs are chosen and why they are chosen to be in the SPOTLIGHT FORUM. Popular vote? Nominations? A list of people from the forum...a secret panel, to decide? I'm not sure how that would be done, just so it is unbiased and weeds out the rocks and weeds from the truly quality songs and mixes. As this is the Cakewalk forum, I would think the primary focus would be on recording, and production quality with "bonus points" for the musicianship and writing chops.
Done right, this could be good.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Karyn
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/18 08:59:30
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Guitarhacker
Popular vote? Nominations? A list of people from the forum...a secret panel, to decide?
The answer is obvious, The Forum Hosts decide in a super secret meeting. So secret in fact that nobody ever finds out the result.. That way everyone is happy 
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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Guitarhacker
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Re: What Has Happened????????
2015/03/18 09:08:00
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I could see how this could easily become a disaster as well..... so proceed accordingly. Or not.
You know the old saying... If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.... but my oh my how we like to try.....
All kidding aside, it could be worth a try. If all else fails and it does become a disaster, the Song spotlight forum could simply be removed.....of course that would also make some folks mad.....
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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