Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/27 10:08:12
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☄ Helpfulby zybermark 2013/09/27 10:49:20
I never said we wouldn't do VST3. We adopt technology when it makes sense to do so and actually benefits our application and larger user base. Until literally this year there were no plugins exclusively in VST3 format that made it worth the significant development resources to invest in. And there was nothing that we needed VST3 for to implement it. The prochannel is all VST2 extensions for example.
What made it worthwhile for us to do finally in X3 were 2 factors:
1. The ARA implementation was more natural to do based off VST3. Although Celemony had a VST2 implementation their VST3 layer was better tested and I didn't want to do a huge new implementation based off an older standard. Also I was refactoring large areas of our VST engine for this and it was a good time to make such a change.
2. A few big plugin vendors such as Waves have stopped maintaining their VST2 releases (due to resource constraints not due to limitations of VST2)
My original perceptions about VST3 are still valid after having developed this. While its a more modern API there is virtually nothing that couldn't be achieved by some simple extensions to VST2. I don't fault Steinberg for wanting cleaner API (most developers are hate old designs) but it could have been handled in a more transparent and backwards compatible way than they did it. VST3's object model seems over-engineered to me. I didn't have much trouble getting it but I think many developers will have a hard time with the excessive abstraction in the API's. This and the completely lack of backwards compatibility are the main reasons for its slow adoption. One good thing in VST3 is that the basics like sidechaining are part of the spec so there is slightly less creative interpretation among vendors.
Anyway we have it now and a good side effect of doing it was that I cleaned up a lot of the VST2 and general plugin code as well so it benefits all users. I have written a blog post on X3 VST enhancements that will come out soon.
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clintmartin
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/27 10:18:08
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More good news...keep talking!
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Loptec
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/27 10:20:08
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I never said we wouldn't do VST3. We adopt technology when it makes sense to do so and actually benefits our application and larger user base. Until literally this year there were no plugins exclusively in VST3 format that made it worth the significant development resources to invest in. And there was nothing that we needed VST3 for to implement it. The prochannel is all VST2 extensions for example.
What made it worthwhile for us to do finally in X3 were 2 factors:
1. The ARA implementation was more natural to do based off VST3. Although Celemony had a VST2 implementation their VST3 layer was better tested and I didn't want to do a huge new implementation based off an older standard. Also I was refactoring large areas of our VST engine for this and it was a good time to make such a change.
2. A few big plugin vendors such as Waves have stopped maintaining their VST2 releases (due to resource constraints not due to limitations of VST2)
My original perceptions about VST3 are still valid after having developed this. While its a more modern API there is virtually nothing that couldn't be achieved by some simple extensions to VST2. I don't fault Steinberg for wanting cleaner API (most developers are hate old designs) but it could have been handled in a more transparent and backwards compatible way than they did it. VST3's object model seems over-engineered to me. I didn't have much trouble getting it but I think many developers will have a hard time with the excessive abstraction in the API's. This and the completely lack of backwards compatibility are the main reasons for its slow adoption. One good thing in VST3 is that the basics like sidechaining are part of the spec so there is slightly less creative interpretation among vendors.
Anyway we have it now and a good side effect of doing it was that I cleaned up a lot of the VST2 and general plugin code as well so it benefits all users. I have written a blog post on X3 VST enhancements that will come out soon.
wohoo! \o/
SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM
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David A. Batson
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/27 11:34:10
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So Noel anymore secrets you want to share? hehehehe 
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/27 12:02:30
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Ill have to kill myself if I do that before the dealers come and torture me :)
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Beepster
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/27 12:13:06
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Ill have to kill myself if I do that before the dealers come and torture me :)
I wish they'd let you guys do your jobs as you see fit like the qualified professionals you are instead of this corporate micro-managing silliness. Here's hoping Gibson realizes that maybe... just MAYBE you guys know what the heck you're doing and how best to deal with the customer base you've been serving all these years.
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cparmerlee
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/27 14:39:23
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Beepster
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Ill have to kill myself if I do that before the dealers come and torture me :)
I wish they'd let you guys do your jobs as you see fit like the qualified professionals you are instead of this corporate micro-managing silliness. Here's hoping Gibson realizes that maybe... just MAYBE you guys know what the heck you're doing and how best to deal with the customer base you've been serving all these years.
The dealer network is important. If the supplier expects dealers to respect the embargo terms, then they have to respect that themselves. It is a 2-way street. Surely we can all wait until tomorrow.
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Mystic38
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/27 16:40:32
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Ill have to kill myself if I do that before the dealers come and torture me :)
can I have the mug?...... just saying.. :D
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swamptooth
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 01:39:11
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Beepster
(you could say FL and Ableton are way more modern but they aren't really for actually RECORDING audio).
I would take a look at this video, beep, if you think ableton isn't hypermodern at audio recording... http://youtu.be/GAuq00Ze-Gw
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swamptooth
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 01:51:00
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
VST3's object model seems over-engineered to me. I didn't have much trouble getting it but I think many developers will have a hard time with the excessive abstraction in the API's. This and the completely lack of backwards compatibility are the main reasons for its slow adoption.
i agree noel, the vst3 sdk is pretty over-engineered in todays environment, and there's a difference between building a model that is forward thinking and one that is just difficult to be difficult. the abstraction layer is pretty painful, but it's not something that a couple of months of using won't take care of... like most sdk's the more you use it the easier it gets then it becomes all muscle memory. all the database systems i used to develop were forward thinking but also easily maintained, using data to drive programming execution so that end users could modify the source with a couple of rows in an excel spreadsheet, for example. vst3 looks like something quite different... it looks like something that is going to be drastically modified again when 4 comes along. i think that's one of the reasons developers can be shy to implement it.
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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chuckebaby
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 01:51:21
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my guess is vst3 was implemented to give cakewalk users everything they've been asking for and in return cakewalk hopes to silence their critics.
looks like its not working :)
people where asking for it, now people are asking why we are getting it ?
this place confuses me sometimes.
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 01:56:19
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Late to this party but weren't there a bazillion threads about this...also scored higher on our customer survey.
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B San
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 02:33:08
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Loptec
. There are no plugins out there that are exclusively VST3 yet, as far as I know.
VocAlign is VST3 only.. it has been a great time-saver over the last year and a half which I have been using it.. Also VST3 allows sidechaining (which came in handy during a recent mix which I used the Softube TLA-100 to get that final balance between the bass and kick)...
post edited by B San - 2013/09/28 02:40:32
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Loptec
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 04:33:14
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B San
Loptec
. There are no plugins out there that are exclusively VST3 yet, as far as I know.
VocAlign is VST3 only.. it has been a great time-saver over the last year and a half which I have been using it..
Ah, alright! I didn't know. Cool :) Another huge reason for Sonar X3 to have VST3 then, aside from just natural development and the other reasons Cake's told us about :) B San
Also VST3 allows sidechaining (which came in handy during a recent mix which I used the Softube TLA-100 to get that final balance between the bass and kick)...
Yeah! VST3 is great! I'm totally for it! I just don't feel Cakewalk was too late implementing it, as many others here seem to feel.
SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM
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SvenArne
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 05:11:10
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B San
Also VST3 allows sidechaining (which came in handy during a recent mix which I used the Softube TLA-100 to get that final balance between the bass and kick)...
As has been stated here many times before, VST3 is not a prerequisite for sidechaining (many of SONAR's included plugins have done sidechaining for years). Certain plugin companies have implemented sidechaining as a VST3-only feauture, though.
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Beepster
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 05:25:47
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swamptooth
Beepster
(you could say FL and Ableton are way more modern but they aren't really for actually RECORDING audio).
I would take a look at this video, beep, if you think ableton isn't hypermodern at audio recording...
http://youtu.be/GAuq00Ze-Gw
Yeah, that's what I meant. It doesn't strike me as something I'd want to use to track live stuff with. Haven't tried it yet though but I don't think that is it's purpose. FL I have tried and as an old rock dinosaur all I have to say is... WTF? lol For DAWs that actually handle live audio Sonar is probably the most modern that I've seen. If they could only work out the kinks I think the competition would be left holding their yams wondering what the heck happened.
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John
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 06:09:44
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chuckebaby
my guess is vst3 was implemented to give cakewalk users everything they've been asking for and in return cakewalk hopes to silence their critics.
looks like its not working :)
people where asking for it, now people are asking why we are getting it ?
this place confuses me sometimes.
Very interesting observation. I wonder often what is going on here.
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Beepster
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 06:25:30
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I remember a lot of people saying they didn't care about VST3 but wouldn't be opposed to it/welcomed it and I think that is still what's happening here aside from the obvious turd disturbers.
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John
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 06:30:41
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Beepster
I remember a lot of people saying they didn't care about VST3 but wouldn't be opposed to it/welcomed it and I think that is still what's happening here aside from the obvious turd disturbers.
True Beep. I was one of those. But I also remember some of the bitter threads attacking CW for not having it.
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Tom Riggs
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 06:31:27
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what happened to freddy? Did he get banned or just go away?
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Beepster
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 06:35:32
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John
Beepster
I remember a lot of people saying they didn't care about VST3 but wouldn't be opposed to it/welcomed it and I think that is still what's happening here aside from the obvious turd disturbers.
True Beep. I was one of those. But I also remember some of the bitter threads attacking CW for not having it.
Mike said he's gonna wait and see before forming an opinion on X3... at least he did in one thread that I saw.
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Beepster
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 06:36:37
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Tom Riggs
what happened to freddy? Did he get banned or just go away?
He started using another platform. He did get told to shut up though so it is possible he got banninated or just bailed.
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John
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 06:39:40
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Beepster
John
Beepster
I remember a lot of people saying they didn't care about VST3 but wouldn't be opposed to it/welcomed it and I think that is still what's happening here aside from the obvious turd disturbers.
True Beep. I was one of those. But I also remember some of the bitter threads attacking CW for not having it.
Mike said he's gonna wait and see before forming an opinion on X3... at least he did in one thread that I saw.
That will be a nice change.
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Tom Riggs
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 06:43:43
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I guess I Miss the Big letters.LOL
I remember him ranting forever about 64 bit... then vst3.... then how much he really liked his other daw.
Good Times!
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chuckebaby
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 07:04:35
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John
Beepster
I remember a lot of people saying they didn't care about VST3 but wouldn't be opposed to it/welcomed it and I think that is still what's happening here aside from the obvious turd disturbers.
True Beep. I was one of those. But I also remember some of the bitter threads attacking CW for not having it.
that's exactly what I was referring to john. there was quite a few attacks from people questioning why cakewalk didn't incorporate vst3 in x2. it also looks like cakewalk listened to its users and gave them almost every feature they were asking for as far as I can tell by reading the new features and improvements on sweetwater.
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Beepster
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 07:23:38
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Well... I wanted Audiosnap fixed. A notation improvement would have been nice too but not necessary.
Not much happening in this release for me. The Tape Sim would be cool but I don't need it. Take Lane improvements would be nice but they never bugged me as much as they did others. AD is great but I already have BFD. Improved video is nice but probably not as good as an actual video editor which is what I've been planning on getting for a while. Don't need more plugs/synths... at least not the ones they've added.
The only thing that would be truly useful are any stability improvements but there is no way to tell at this point whether those improvements will actually fix my specific issues and there's no guarantee there won't be new problems even if they are. Even IF they got all those little kinks completely out of the program it's just not worth $150 to me.
$50 X2 patch please.
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cparmerlee
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 08:16:05
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swamptooth
Beepster
(you could say FL and Ableton are way more modern but they aren't really for actually RECORDING audio).
I would take a look at this video, beep, if you think ableton isn't hypermodern at audio recording...
http://youtu.be/GAuq00Ze-Gw
I guess there is a need for that. Personally I find that repetitive ostinato stuff boring as heck, and I don't consider it progress to make it easier to do that. But I guess a lot of people like Phillip Glas too. I think my version of personal hell would be to be trapped on a desert island with somebody who had an Ableton setup, a microphone for rapping, and a violin to play Vivaldi when he wasn't doing the Ableton thing. I'd be looking for the nearest vine to hang myself.
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SuperG
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 08:25:17
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I think my version of personal hell would be to be trapped on a desert island with somebody who had an Ableton setup, a microphone for rapping, and a violin to play Vivaldi when he wasn't doing the Ableton thing. I'd be looking for the nearest vine to hang myself. Funny!
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Beepster
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 08:50:35
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I've got a lite version of Ableton that came with my Scarlett. I'm curious about it because of all the hype but as and actual flesh and nail musician I really don't think it would be something I'd use regularly. Besides Sonar and most of the other DAWs are capable of that production style anyway. I think it's the layout that the hippety hoppers and OONTZ OONTZ OONTZ crowd find appealing.
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mumpcake
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Re: What caused Cakewalk to think VST3 is a good thing all of a sudden?
2013/09/28 09:22:42
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Beepster
Tom Riggs
what happened to freddy? Did he get banned or just go away?
He started using another platform. He did get told to shut up though so it is possible he got banninated or just bailed.
Then he started trolling the NI forums < http://www.native-instrum...d-VST3-thanks-you!>
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