What causes wave to be flattened above zero only?

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gswitz
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2014/10/12 22:24:18 (permalink)

What causes wave to be flattened above zero only?


 
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20141010_Susan_08_SteveGuitar.mp3
 
I recorded a guy Friday night who had some kind of FX processor in his Amp. I think the Amp was Fender. I can't remember. And it had two 3pin plug outs for left and right. I took one and it sounded just awful. I did mic the amp directly, and in some cases for some sounds the wave form is normally distributed above and below zero but in others, it looks like this.
 
Is this a standard sort of effect of some kind, or ... I just can't remember seeing a wave form like this and it puzzles me. It doesn't sound bad, just looks funny. It does sound bad direct though.
 
It's like it was limited above 0 only. Why would you do that? It has to introduce limiting distortion.
post edited by gswitz - 2014/10/12 22:45:53

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    RobertB
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 00:20:07 (permalink)
    I've never seen anything that extreme, but it looks like an exceptionally bad case of DC offset.
    I'm not even going to throw out any guesses as to what would cause it. It's above my pay grade.

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    #2
    TomHelvey
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 01:44:24 (permalink)
    When you did the direct connection, did you have phantom power turned on (48v)?

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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 04:40:22 (permalink)
    Could also be clipping in his amp FX.
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    2014/10/13 08:21:28 (permalink)

    post edited by mister happy - 2018/02/01 12:05:41


    #5
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 08:35:54 (permalink)
    You all are awesome! Thanks tons!

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #6
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 08:38:39 (permalink)
    Btw this was Mic recorded with a guitar cube condenser using phantom power.

    It is only now occurring to me to compare it with the direct wave. This might explain why the direct sounds so bad. It needs to be routed through an amp simulator.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #7
    The Maillard Reaction
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    2014/10/13 08:39:10 (permalink)

    post edited by mister happy - 2018/02/01 12:05:55


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    Beagle
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 08:56:35 (permalink)
    I have seen this before.  The problem I saw was from using a preamp and a microphone.  the preamp was a very cheap Audio Buddy M-audio preamp.  the preamp was clipping the signal on the top rail, my guess was that the opamps were dual power +/- 15V and that the top rail was likely geting less than 15V causing the signal to clip on the top side only.
     
    It is likely that he has a problem either with input power or more likely with regulated power inside the FX box he is using.  I would suggest removing that FX box from the signal chain and use something else.

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    #9
    The Maillard Reaction
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    2014/10/13 09:03:13 (permalink)

    post edited by mister happy - 2018/02/01 12:06:05


    #10
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 09:33:44 (permalink)
    .
    post edited by gswitz - 2014/10/13 09:41:09

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #11
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 09:49:00 (permalink)
    Awesome. The effects were built into the amp.
     
    [EDIT: The device that had the problem was not the RME but the Tascam 2488. See subsequent posts.]
    My preamp for my Mic was an rme quad Mic pre. The limiting above zero was not consistent during the evening's recording.

    I'm going to look at the direct wave form tonight and then run some equipment tests. I was using my tascam 2488 too. Maybe it was running into that instead. I can't quite remember.
    post edited by gswitz - 2014/10/21 18:06:53

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #12
    mettelus
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 09:53:04 (permalink)
    +1 to Beagle. I assume you have not manually adjusted DC offset, so there is some weird imbalance going on with that signal (your screenshot has a significant offset in it).

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    #13
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 10:28:12 (permalink)
    I haven't manually applied dc offset.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #14
    The Maillard Reaction
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    2014/10/13 10:42:47 (permalink)

    post edited by mister happy - 2018/02/01 12:06:14


    #15
    Anderton
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 10:54:38 (permalink)
    There are distortion devices that do asymmetrical clipping on purpose. But it could also be problems with a push-pull stage. Power supply issues are a strong possibility. 

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    2014/10/13 11:16:35 (permalink)

    post edited by mister happy - 2018/02/01 12:06:26


    #17
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 11:31:21 (permalink)
    I'll have to try to replicate at home. Then I'm guessing that gas attack will follow.

    I'm eager to check which device caused issue.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #18
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 11:33:03 (permalink)
    Any possibility that the basement just didn't haven't juice for the band? Could that do it? I've used all my gear for years and years without this issue before.

    True, I rarely record sixteen tracks.

    Here is a track...

    http://stabilitynetwork.b...10_Susan_04_Joleen.mp3

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #19
    The Maillard Reaction
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    2014/10/13 12:02:51 (permalink)

     
     
    post edited by mister happy - 2018/02/01 12:06:39


    #20
    Beagle
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 12:41:03 (permalink)
    ^exactly.
     
    let the GAS rip! 

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    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 12:59:33 (permalink)
    Well, Mike, looks like that was a poor Mic choice. I had started with a mxl v63 but it was too loud and clipped with the gain down to the floor. Now I remember that the Mic was in the tascam. The rme has a low gain setting on pre. The tascam has a single button for phantom on four inputs.


    And, well it had the word guitar right in the Mic name!

    And a shure sm57 was unused in my bag.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #22
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 13:06:54 (permalink)
    There is no way I could have identified this during recording without interrogating the wave forms. That is a huge bummer.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #23
    fireberd
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 13:18:44 (permalink)
    I had that problem, but it was clipping the bottom of the waveform and not the top.  Turned out to be a bad preamp.  I was using a Presonus Dual BlueTube.  Replaced the tube and it was OK (a major task, the way it required disassembly/reassembly).

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    #24
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 13:41:14 (permalink)
    This is the best argument for monitoring wave forms during sessions I've seen yet
    post edited by gswitz - 2014/10/13 13:53:49

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #25
    bitflipper
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 14:00:43 (permalink)
    Have you determined that's not what the waveform looks like coming out of his amp? I've seen this kind of thing before, and it was tracked back to a leaky coupling capacitor that was allowing a DC voltage on the grid of the next tube, causing the tube to be biased incorrectly. 
     
    This would seem to be a more likely scenario than a problem with the microphone itself, which would only behave this way if it was broken, or perhaps a ridiculously high volume level. Same for a mic preamp: it would have to be really loud, and even then the clipping would be more or less symmetrical. Unless the preamp was busted, but that's unlikely if it's solid-state. I'd look at the guitar amp first.


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    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 14:04:09 (permalink)
    Yeah, I totally thought it was guitar amp before this thread started. I'm totally planning to run it down. Especially since the problem was song consistent. He would pick a sound and maybe yes maybe no for weird clipping thing.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #27
    The Maillard Reaction
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    2014/10/13 15:52:47 (permalink)

    post edited by mister happy - 2018/02/01 12:06:51


    #28
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 17:29:19 (permalink)
    I was using the TASCAM 2488 for this on input 3 of 8.
    [Edit: The problem happened on the MXL mic I used before the Guitar Cube as well, but it wasn't as extreme.]
    It looks like the issue was related to power and the MXL Guitar Cube Microphone.
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/condenser-microphones/mxl-guitar-cube-pro
     
    The problem started before I changed Microphones (1 song before) and was limiting the + values to -6dB. Then after changing Mics it limited to -12dB.
     
    I haven't been able to replicate the issue.
     
    Further, it occurs to me that when I used the Tascam a lot for recording, I would use 2 Art Tube Pres with it. Maybe this reduced the likelihood of me bumping into this particular problem. I also have a tube mic with it's own power supply. Still, there were only 3 Mics plugged in that needed phantom power. 2 were my KM184s which recorded fine and one was the guitar cube.
     
    I wonder if I had toggled the Phantom power after plugging in the Guitar Mic if that would have fixed it, or if the unit were simply underpowered to handle this particular mic plus the 3 others with phantom and the 4 drum mics without phantom.
     
    If I had brought along my Art Tube Pre, this could have been avoided, probably.
    post edited by gswitz - 2014/10/21 18:09:34

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #29
    gswitz
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    Re: What causes wave to be flattened above zero only? 2014/10/13 17:40:13 (permalink)
    Right about now, I'm pretty glad I grabbed a direct too. I think I'll be able to salvage the recording using that.
     
    The direct signal sounds weird, but the wave form is NORML. I can work with it.
    post edited by gswitz - 2014/10/13 17:46:45

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #30
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