Helpful ReplyWhat frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ???

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kev11111111111111
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2013/12/27 15:58:23 (permalink)

What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ???

Hi !
So this might be stupid question for the pros on here...so thanks for your patience :-) I'm asking this because I'm curious. Say if you drop 220 Hz by - 5 db on an EQ,then place a limiter after the EQ with an increase of 5 db...doesnt that cancel out the EQ ?? If so,what is the point of putting an EQ before a limiter ??
Kev
 
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Re: What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ??? 2013/12/27 19:27:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby olemon 2014/01/06 21:07:48
kev11111111111111
Say if you drop 220 Hz by - 5 db on an EQ,then place a limiter after the EQ with an increase of 5 db...doesnt that cancel out the EQ ?? If so,what is the point of putting an EQ before a limiter ??
Kev
 



No, it doesn't cancel out the EQ, because the makeup gain is across all frequencies. Because they're all raised by the same amount, their relative levels remain the same.
 
Which is not to say that limiters don't effect frequency response, because they certainly do. Mainly, they reduce low frequencies because that's where most of the energy is and therefore that's what's mainly triggering the limiter. If the limiter is set very aggressively, it may also add harmonic distortion, which we perceive as additional high frequencies.


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kev11111111111111
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Re: What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ??? 2013/12/28 03:21:20 (permalink)
ah ok,that makes sense. Have a good 2014 !!! Thanks for your post,
Kev
 
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Jeff Evans
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Re: What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ??? 2013/12/28 06:52:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby olemon 2014/01/06 21:07:57
Mainly, they reduce low frequencies because that's where most of the energy is and therefore that's what's mainly triggering the limiter....
 
Only up to a point and when the bass end of your mix is out of control which in many cases it is. All the more reason you have to get your bass end under control by the time the mix hits the limiter. When it is, the limiter does not effect the low end very much at all. You will find that the whole spectrum ends up triggering the limter in a much more balanced way.  Another reason why I like PSP Xenon so much. The gain reduction meter is very nice and not only that it can be zoomed to show more downward reduction than you normally would see. Cool feature. Once you learn to read this well you can see and hear what is effecting the limiter.
 
Also even when Xenon is hitting hard and adding quite a bit of rms gain it does not break up the mix and hence adds very little distortion and any additional high frequencies. Overall it is a very transparent limiter. At a price though.
 
What Dave is saying is very true of lesser/cheaper limiters and most fall into this category.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/12/28 07:27:55

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kev11111111111111
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Re: What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ??? 2013/12/29 07:17:04 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
Mainly, they reduce low frequencies because that's where most of the energy is and therefore that's what's mainly triggering the limiter....
 
Only up to a point and when the bass end of your mix is out of control which in many cases it is. All the more reason you have to get your bass end under control by the time the mix hits the limiter. When it is, the limiter does not effect the low end very much at all. You will find that the whole spectrum ends up triggering the limter in a much more balanced way.  Another reason why I like PSP Xenon so much. The gain reduction meter is very nice and not only that it can be zoomed to show more downward reduction than you normally would see. Cool feature. Once you learn to read this well you can see and hear what is effecting the limiter.
 
Also even when Xenon is hitting hard and adding quite a bit of rms gain it does not break up the mix and hence adds very little distortion and any additional high frequencies. Overall it is a very transparent limiter. At a price though.
 
What Dave is saying is very true of lesser/cheaper limiters and most fall into this category.




Yep I suppose it's learning how much to limit too isnt it,even with a mix that has good bass end control....if you limit to much it will screw the mix up ? I'm trying to learn the 'less is more' approach.I listened to some of my earlier mixs this year and I can hear the limiter killing the sound. PSP Xenon sounds interesting.I'll google it..
 
Have a great 2014 !
 
Kev
 
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Re: What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ??? 2013/12/30 15:53:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby olemon 2014/01/06 21:08:30
In my opinion Kev, the limiter is going to accentuate the whole mix as well as anything that may be pushed. For example, if you have a mix that is a bit bass heavy, the limiter will boost the entire mix but you will definitely hear the bass more. You have to control your frequencies from the beginning.....THEN use the limiter as the final piece. When I use my limiter, in layman terms all it does is tighten up and boost my already fine tuned mix. If I can hear it pumping/breathing, I'm using too much or I may need to adjust an attack or release...maybe turn the threshold down. The main thing is to not push it too much or try to compare your loudness with what you hear from pro recordings. I know most people strive to achieve that, but they go through an entirely different process that most won't be able to achieve correctly. Your best bet is the cleanest recording without artifacts you can get that has a nice level that can be achieved by simply turning up the volume knob. :) Happy 2014!
 
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Re: What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ??? 2013/12/30 19:43:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby olemon 2014/01/06 21:08:56
If you need to boost loudness in a mix.  A limiter is definitely not the first place to start.  As was mentioned, taming the bass response is the first step in increasing loudness.  At higher listening levels bass tends to cut through.  Even if you lower it in proportion to the midrange it will still sound just as full once the levels are brought up.  Allowing a "free" doubling of volume without sacrificing overall dynamics due to simple psychoacoustics.  Plugins like maxx bass are popular for mixers because they affect the higher overtones, allowing a sense of louder bass without increasing the lowest fundamental which can then be reduced. 
 
If you are needing dynamic control to boost the level, it is always better to try it first with a standard compressor on the track level, which will offer a much smoother reduction in volume and also allow some transients to escape, keeping the sound punchy. 
 
That is really as far as you should go before sending it to a mastering engineer in a commercial mix.  But if you need to DIY 100%, a master buss compressor followed by a limiter is a good idea.  If the limiter is reducing the transients by more than 3 or so dB to achieve the volume that you want, you really need to look earlier in the mix to see if you can sneak through a few more dB before you set up a brick wall.  (ie.  tame the transients causing the problem, not the entire mix)
 
Contrary to popular belief in the audiophile world, even us classical engineer use limiters and compressors to boost dynamics.  Especially on vocal or piano spot microphones.  It is inevitable in the world of mp3 and noise competition in car stereos.  We just use much lower ratios like 1.3:1 and have a higher standard headroom for dynamics. 

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Re: What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ??? 2013/12/31 07:51:48 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
In my opinion Kev, the limiter is going to accentuate the whole mix as well as anything that may be pushed. For example, if you have a mix that is a bit bass heavy, the limiter will boost the entire mix but you will definitely hear the bass more. You have to control your frequencies from the beginning.....THEN use the limiter as the final piece. When I use my limiter, in layman terms all it does is tighten up and boost my already fine tuned mix. If I can hear it pumping/breathing, I'm using too much or I may need to adjust an attack or release...maybe turn the threshold down. The main thing is to not push it too much or try to compare your loudness with what you hear from pro recordings. I know most people strive to achieve that, but they go through an entirely different process that most won't be able to achieve correctly. Your best bet is the cleanest recording without artifacts you can get that has a nice level that can be achieved by simply turning up the volume knob. :) Happy 2014!
 
-Danny




Hi Danny
I get you,so if a mix is already bass heavy,the limiter is going to push this characteristic out some more.I suppose its the same for the mids and highs etc. I should of mentioned i wasnt really talking about using the limiter on the whole track,but rather individual tracks. For example I often place an EQ,compressor and then a limiter on my bass guitar track. But it's the same principle I guess as the one you've just explained. If the bass guitar is bass heavy,it will be even more bassy after the limiter and compression ? I've been using limiting for background parts too - here I find it's really useful to place some element in the background but still giving it enough volume to make it clear and audible to the listener. What I've been struggling with is that to place the elements at the back,I often cut away at the highs - but then after the compressor and limiter the highs are back !!!!!!!! Maybe in this case I'm limiting to hard or I need to place an eq at the end of the effects chain to remove the highs..that would probably be a good solution. 
Thanks for your help !! Wishing you a Happy New Year too :)
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Re: What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ??? 2014/01/02 15:49:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby olemon 2014/01/06 21:10:06
Hi Kev,
 
Well, I'll get impaled for this but I'm not one that really likes to use any limiters on my tracks because I find that they don't allow the tracks to breathe as well. Then again, it depends on the style of music you are producing, but for me, a limiter just about never gets used on the stuff I record here.
 
I HAVE had to use limiters on client work that comes through here that was recorded somewhere else, but nothing I record here is ever in need of limiting really. I'll use compression with automation before I'll put a limiter on something. The only time I may limit, is on a snare drum.
 
For example, I'm using a transient designer on a snare to make it crack a little more. This makes the snare lash out a bit at times. So I'll automate it to try my best to preserve it and not pick up any artifacts. If I still see/hear it lashing out a bit, I may try a compressor. If it still lashes, I try turning down the level on the transient plug. I do anything I can to not use any limiting because as soon as I do put a limiter on, the snare can sound "the same" for every snare hit as well as lose some of its dynamics. Snares as you know are really dynamic yet there are times where we need them super consistent. So when I've exhausted everything, then I'll put a limiter on or a compressor policing things a bit more strict.
 
Now for bass guitar, a limited bass would drive me insane. LOL! I find limiters just suck the life out of the bass in situations where you want it to be a bit more dynamic. Again, dynamics are super important to me, but there are times when we may need more consistency in a style of music. A limiter would probably be helpful, but on my end, I'd most likely never record a bass that would need a limiter.
 
I like to lightly compress my basses going to disc destructively to condition them and keep them a bit tighter during the recording process. Though a lot of guys wouldn't want to do this as they could risk ruining the track with too much compression to where it may need to be re-tracked, destructively recording with a little compression makes the bass a little easier to play and can sweeten the tone up as well if the right compressor is used. So this gives me a totally different bass to work with in my mix instead of one direct right into Sonar that has 0 processing. You just have to know how to go about it...and I've been doing this so long, I get it right 98% of the time without a reprint. LOL!
 
As for the limiter cutting off your highs, yeah you wil definitely notice that. Quick example, you know how people are going for super loud, squashed mixes these days? What you DON'T hear in those mixes, is their original snare drum. The limiters kill snares so bad on full mixes it's not even funny. That's usually the first thing I hear (besides over-all pumping and breathing/squashing artifacts) because the high end crack is removed. This same thing is going to happen in your case because the limiter is going to concentrate on controlling the transient...which usually comes in the form of a high end crack, pop or percussive attack on a bass guitar.
 
So the first thing the human ear picks up on is...the high end isn't there. It's STILL there, it's just that the transient of that instrument has been either softened or drastically removed. Adding an eq like you mentioned may bring things back to life a bit, but it could also create more problems for you because then you may add artifacts that further remove the purities of the instrument you are trying to process.
 
For effects purposes, this can really be cool. But if you are working with instruments that have started out sounding real, you can very easily turn them into synthetic instruments that not only sound fake, but may no longer fit your mix. So you definitely have to be careful. Without hearing what you're working on, it's hard to even tell you what to try.
 
But for myself personally, I try to keep things as pure and real as I can without over-processing with compression and especially limiting. I know some guys have great results using limiters on their instruments. So I'm not downing it, it;s just not something I like to do unless I really have to. Hope this helps man. :) Best of luck.
 
-Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2014/01/02 15:53:51

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Jeff Evans
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Re: What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ??? 2014/01/02 18:01:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby olemon 2014/01/06 21:10:42
By the time mix hits the limiter the frequency response of the mix should be well balanced. The GR meter is worth watching in your limiter to see what it is reacting too. (Xenon has got a zoom mode which emphasises this more so)
 
I usually only aim to get 4 dB out of the limiter. (at most and often less) I have raised all rms levels elsewhere (in mastering) so the idea is to not get the limiter to add much rms level. I find if I do an A/B test before and after the limiter and adjust the softer signal to be as loud as the limited signal I find I cannot hear any difference between the two. That is the way I like the limiter to work eg very transparently and not actually changing a thing other than level. PSP Xenon can do that standing on its ear.
 
I don't use limiters anywhere on tracks (or buses for that matter) other than the occasional watch dog level watch. eg  limiter set with a very high threshold so basically it does not do anything most of the time just catching the odd high peak every now and then. Limiters can change what you hear on tracks too much for my liking when working harder. I agree with Danny on this big time. If you are doing things right I find there is no need for limiters on tracks very often.
 
Working with K system eliminates the need for a lot of things especially limiters on tracks. It takes care of everything all by itself.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2014/01/02 18:02:52

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Re: What frequencies does a Limiter booast ?? All of them equally ??? 2014/01/06 21:20:19 (permalink)
Great discussion.  Thank you.
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