ASG
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What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
i have a guitar track i want compressed eq'd and distorted. Would you wait til after you do your eq and compression to apply the distortion? Also if you have multiple tracks, would you completely master one track at a time, eq each track then compress each track then apply effects? or does the effect come first before the eq and compression? how do you prefer to do it
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/26 05:28:11
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Mastering is never a per-track thing. It's always the last thing done to the entire project, when it's mixed down to a 2-track stereo file.
As for a distorted guitar track, I'd say there's no rules, because the sound is going to be distorted anyway. If it sounds right it sounds right.
In an amp sim surrounding distortion already includes a lot of compression, AFAIK, so the solution also depends on how you're doing the distortion.
Have you recorded a clean guitar track in order to distort later? Wouldn't it be easier to have the amp sim/FX on and record it listening to the distorted sound. You do play very differently when you're auditioning a clean sound.
So the answer to your question is, usually people don't do it your way. They have the FX in the tracks bin already when they are recording, because the FX affects your playing technique so much..
For other types of tracks, the most common FX order is EQ + compressor (+sometimes additional EQ to polish what the comp maybe pushed up).
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Guitarhacker
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/26 09:20:07
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Technically, Kalle is correct about the mastering thing not being at the track level....OFFICIALLY..... but...
I always approach my projects with the end in mind. So therefore, the goal is to get the tracks sounding as good as possible toward that goal. I realize that compression in the track will be affected by mastering compression.... from the moment I put it in the track I am aware of this. I always work with the end in mind, even at the very beginning.
Mastering, is supposed to be used to make all the songs in a project/CD have the same approximate levels and sound..... it should bring a cohesiveness to the project so you're not grabbing the volume knob on each individual song and also so they all sound like they were recorded in the same place and time.
my 2 sense.
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Rick Goodling
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/26 15:43:51
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New thread, but somewhat related to the above topic: I have recorded a live symposium using 9 mics through audio interface into Cakewalk Music Creator 6. Much of the recording is over driven and distorted because of the differences in mics and those speaking despite my efforts to keep the levels uniform. There is also a low level hum like "open air" that I'd like to eliminate or reduce. Am I correct in assuming I can use compression to correct these problems? How do I know how to set the compression levels, assuming I'm correct?
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Jeff Evans
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/26 17:47:32
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Basically you are not correct. If the original recordings are distorted then they will stay that way. No amount of compression is going to help a pre existing distorted recording. (there are plugins and software that can reduce clipping but it varies as to how well)
The 'hum' like sound or 'air' as you refer to it could be the room tone you are hearing. Have you got any part of the recording where this room tone exists on its own and is nice and even in level etc. If you do then maybe some noise reduction processes might bring it down. You have to be careful with this as it could add artifacts to the original recording. You have to have some pretty good noise reduction software or plugins to make this happen.
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SongCraft
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/26 19:47:10
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OP: "i have a guitar track i want compressed eq'd and distorted"
Usually the order would be;
Amp-sim (distortion) DI or actual Amp mic'd up followed by
EQ >> compression >> limiter -3 to - 6 (max) to control the peaks, to prevent track clipping.
* Limiter should be the last link in the FX-chain.
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Rick Goodling
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/26 21:41:14
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Forum MenuCalendarsPosts since last visitToday's PostsSubscribed postsTicket InformationTerms of ServiceFAQSearch Forum Search Private Messages (1)Compose New PMUser Control PanelEdit ProfileForum FilterSubscriptionPrivate MessagesContacts / FriendsMy Public ProfileMember ListOnline User ListUser GroupsLog out Forum Themes: Blue Cake Cakewalk Robo-Cake Welcome Rick Goodling ! All Forums >> [Community] >> Techniques Reply to messagePost New Thread RSS FeedSubscribe to this threadDon't get email notificationGet Instant NotificationGet Daily DigestGet Weekly Digest Search this topic Search Thread Options Jeff, what do you think would work? I can re-record some parts of the symposium, but others are not reproduceable. If I could reduce some of the distortion in some parts of the recording that might work. thanks for your help, Rick
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Danny Danzi
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/27 06:00:56
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SongCraft
OP: "i have a guitar track i want compressed eq'd and distorted"
Usually the order would be;
Amp-sim (distortion) DI or actual Amp mic'd up followed by
EQ >> compression >> limiter -3 to - 6 (max) to control the peaks, to prevent track clipping.
* Limiter should be the last link in the FX-chain.
+1! This is the most common way...however, you may want to try putting the compressor first in line and here's why. The more you mess with amp modelers, the more you'll find that they react differently to the source that is driving them. A well conditioned DI signal will always sound better than one that isn't. Meaning, it's usually best to compress the DI signal a little going in if possible with a hardware comp...or you compress it once it's recorded as the first thing in the chain. Then you add the amp sim, eq and another compressor. The second compressor handles the actual distortion tone transients. I'm not one that will ever run a limiter on a guitar tone because I've never felt the need, but I'm sure it will work in the way Song Craft has described. Everything is worth a try. :) -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Rbh
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/27 17:13:42
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I agree with Danny... It depends IMO entirely on the type of distorted sounding guitar you're after. If you are going for a clean into mild break-up kind of guitar sound using a sim... it is much better to compress prior to distortion. This will help control the sensitivity that modelers have to deal with regarding input gain signals. Most modelers are actually pretty good...but the exacting input signal it takes to dynamically affect their drive signature is very sensitive. It's very easy to make a good modeling sim sound like dog doo. If you are going for a balls out distortion with uber drive on top...then it gets much easier, but you can still send it into a fizzz fest if you don't watch the gain structure. Dynamics in between the 2 types are what is very difficult to control.
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ASG
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/27 17:35:17
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Thanks alot im gonna try all these things when i get a chance. NOW PLEASE READ: I have another question totally unrelated to the guitar track i was referring to earlier. Im working on another project thats mostly soft synths. I try to get all the tracks laid out before messing with them cause i think ill do more harm than good. Im just weird that way, worried ill take 1 step forward and 2 steps back. Anyways my problem is i use mainly synths by sonivox and big fish (occasionally camel's Alchemy) and the big fish samples by default completely overpower the sonivox stuff. at first i thought it was just the volume on one synth is by default just much louder than the other. But i noticed the samples from Big fish just sound so much more full and proffesional, of a higher quality, and im worried that if i tone down the big fish synths to accomodate the sonivox stuff, that the sounds will lose their quality. But if i turn up the Sonivox synths i feel like im not getting the true sound. Like i said im weird. Basically what im asking is if theres a way to put all soft synths on the same page in terms of volume from the very start of a project, but without messing with anything? i want to wait til the tracks are finished to begin mixing them, so i can compress and eq everything at once (so i dont forget any changes ive made in case i need to go back and undo them) , but trying to put a track together where your sonivox synths are *whisper* "over there on the floor.." and your Big Fish drums are *yell* "UP HERE IN YOUR FACE" , can be very frustrating. I know this is weird but this is my biggest question please give any advice you have.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/27 18:36:49
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☄ Helpful
I don't think there's any shortcut. You just need to adjust the track volumes so that they match, just like you'd have to do anyway when you start mixing. Why would you need to work using disturbingly different volume levels, as I understand you question? Don't you just automatically adjust the track level to a satisfactory level the very moment you open the synth?
Human ears work so that louder usually sounds "better", so don't let sheer volume distract you.
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SongCraft
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/27 19:26:51
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Danny Danzi
SongCraft
OP: "i have a guitar track i want compressed eq'd and distorted"
Usually the order would be;
Amp-sim (distortion) DI or actual Amp mic'd up followed by
EQ >> compression >> limiter -3 to - 6 (max) to control the peaks, to prevent track clipping.
* Limiter should be the last link in the FX-chain.
+1! This is the most common way...however, you may want to try putting the compressor first in line and here's why. The more you mess with amp modelers, the more you'll find that they react differently to the source that is driving them.
Danny, Yes it all all depends.... here's why.... Most Hardware Amp-Sims usually already have compressors, gate (or noise reduction), also consider the very nature of the distortion itself actually compresses the sound + it also depends for example; I much prefer to retain a more dynamic response which for example some hardware amp-sims do and I love that because my 'playing style' (technique) can dramatically change in the arrangement. -
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ASG
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/27 21:58:45
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So when im lowering the volume, the sounds arent actually losing any of their quality, my ears just think they are?
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SongCraft
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/28 00:02:49
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ASG
As Kalle said :)
To further give us some idea;
. what are the 'Track Vol Levels' =?... for example; -12 is fine!
. can you give as an A vs B vol level comparison between both sources; (A) Big fish and (B) SonniVox.
Maybe you might need to go into the Sonnivox and crank it up from there? ... 'experiment' then 'save as' [another name] if your concerned about losing what you previously had :)
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Danny Danzi
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/28 06:36:30
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SongCraft
Danny Danzi
SongCraft
OP: "i have a guitar track i want compressed eq'd and distorted"
Usually the order would be;
Amp-sim (distortion) DI or actual Amp mic'd up followed by
EQ >> compression >> limiter -3 to - 6 (max) to control the peaks, to prevent track clipping.
* Limiter should be the last link in the FX-chain.
+1! This is the most common way...however, you may want to try putting the compressor first in line and here's why. The more you mess with amp modelers, the more you'll find that they react differently to the source that is driving them.
Danny,
Yes it all all depends.... here's why....
Most Hardware Amp-Sims usually already have compressors, gate (or noise reduction), also consider the very nature of the distortion itself actually compresses the sound + it also depends for example; I much prefer to retain a more dynamic response which for example some hardware amp-sims do and I love that because my 'playing style' (technique) can dramatically change in the arrangement.
-
Oh yeah, I know all about that stuff Song. LOL! Totally with ya there bro. I work for Acme Bar Gig and the one thing I've learned having worked on all our sims is...it's amazing how the DI sound makes a difference. Another thing we have that no one else does...is a buffer in our amps. Just like a real amp buffers your sound when you plug in...that's how our main one works. You know how you can get loads of distortion out of most of these amp sims yet just about no sustain? LOL!! I so hate that! With ours, we don't have that problem. We literally feedback due to this input gain feature we have. It also compensates for stronger or weaker pups. When I was doing my testing, I'd always experiment with my DI signal. I found that a little compression on the DI (or even a pedal like a Tube Screamer or Boss Compressor Sustainer) or a boost of some kind, really made a difference. When I used the Tube Screamer, I'd kill the gain on the TS completely, and just jack up the output on it until it hissed a little..then backed it down. But even that worked wonders getting good tones out of the amp sim stuff. But definitely...the best by far, is a good compressor with a little bit of kick taking care of that DI. Add in our input gain control, and man....you really get all the effects of an amp including how it reacts. So I'm totally with ya. :) -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2011/12/31 06:24:22
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Kalle Rantaaho
I don't think there's any shortcut. You just need to adjust the track volumes so that they match, just like you'd have to do anyway when you start mixing. Why would you need to work using disturbingly different volume levels, as I understand you question? Don't you just automatically adjust the track level to a satisfactory level the very moment you open the synth?
Human ears work so that louder usually sounds "better", so don't let sheer volume distract you.
Another thing you have to consider is your song arrangement. Basically, no matter how much you love a particular synth track, there might be no room in your final mix to accomodate it. Build your mix up starting with the most important instruments/sounds and be absolutely brutal about pruning away the excess baggage. When I listen to some of my earlier stuff, it's as clear as day that a lot of it suffers from an over-bloated arrangement and if I had the time, or the inclination, I'd go back and revisit the arrangement and totally rebuild the mix.
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MP3ISTHEDEVIL
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2012/01/05 22:24:04
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Jeff Evans
Basically you are not correct. If the original recordings are distorted then they will stay that way. No amount of compression is going to help a pre existing distorted recording. (there are plugins and software that can reduce clipping but it varies as to how well)
The 'hum' like sound or 'air' as you refer to it could be the room tone you are hearing. Have you got any part of the recording where this room tone exists on its own and is nice and even in level etc. If you do then maybe some noise reduction processes might bring it down. You have to be careful with this as it could add artifacts to the original recording. You have to have some pretty good noise reduction software or plugins to make this happen.
Exactly! You never go wrong when the source is right.
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Philip
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Re:What order do you apply fx eq and compression?
2012/01/05 23:46:07
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Excellent thread. I don't know my preferences.
Things get pretty tricky all along the signal chain (for me). At my level, I equate vox and guitar a bit ... because my mind is too simple.
There comes a point where a guitar sounds *mastered*, where you/I are happy with the final sound.
There are so many different distortions (harmonic, tape, saturation, tube, character, color, etc. etc.) ... that this can get pretty neurotic for me.
Happy accidents and experiments oft get 'that riff sound'.
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