Legion
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What panlaw and why?
Sorry if this has already been debated I'm to lazy to use search and then go through 100's of irrelevant posts before finding the right one (maybe...).
I'm just wondering what pan laws people use in Sonar and why, for example what's the big difference in boosting hard panned parts or dipping center panned or what's the good/bad with sin/cos, square-root or linear taper?
Thanks in advance.
/Legion
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edentowers
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 11:46:35
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Maybe we're too lazy to reply!
Seriously, if you do a search on this forum you'll find lots of useful stuff on pan laws. I'm using the one that Scott recommends.
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papa2004
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 11:49:13
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It's a "what I'm mixing" preference...
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Hansenhaus
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 11:53:25
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GOOGLE will get the answer you need in seconds. For god sakes you took the time to type your post so you certinaly can't be too lazy to open Google and if you are then you don't deserve to know 
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j boy
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 11:59:10
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It's not any big deal unless you change your pan law settings in mid-project, or are exchanging projects between other people's DAW's, etc. and even then you just re-mix any specific tracks back to your liking. At the end of the day, you put the faders where you want 'em to hear what you want to hear. It's not that complicated, really.
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bitflipper
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 12:01:39
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I use 0db center, but if -3db center were the only option I'd be happy with that.
The 0db center means that things get 3db louder as you move them to the center from the sides, mimicking the natural behavior of stereo sound reproduction. I'm accustomed to that behavior, and it seems very natural to me. As I pan things out to the sides, I tend to turn them down anyway, since they become clearer as they move out of the congestion. This pan law just does it for me automatically.
Some folks find it disconcerting when the volume changes with panning, which is why the -3db option exists. If you do a lot of panning automation, it might be the better option. However, I find that pan envelopes need to be paired with volume envelopes anyway, making the pan law choice moot.
And of course unless you automate panning, it really very little difference which pan law you use.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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papa2004
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 12:04:01
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For god sakes you took the time to type your post so you certinaly can't be too lazy to open Google You might be surprised at how often users fail to consider using a search engine to find the simplest of answers...The number probably resembles the same percentage as those who never consider using the Help files or consulting their manuals...
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GMGM
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 12:24:28
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Well he is right about the search engine. I don't use it, because it either brings up thousands of unrelated hits, or no results at all.
So, instead I find it useful to go over to Google and just add "site:forum.cakewalk.com" to end of my keywords when I'm looking for something. It does a much better job then the existing search tool. FWIW.
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D K
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 12:27:07
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Geez - The guy just asked a question??  I use 0db - Bit explained it perfectly...... sorry GMGM - not directed at you in particular
post edited by D K - 2008/11/12 12:30:45
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papa2004
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 12:29:41
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I said "a search engine"...I wasn't referring to CW's "search" function (which is intermittently useless)...
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tubeydude
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 12:35:15
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I wonder if he'd be getting kicked in the teeth (the OP) if he'd asked about his motorboating problems. There are probably even more threads on that than the pan law...
Though admitting you're asking out of laziness is also bound to encourage a kicking...
I also use 0dB. -3dB will work fine, but you'll need to adjust your mixes appropriately. I think most other DAWs use 0dB as well.
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Legion
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 13:35:19
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The people flaming me for not using Google are right in some ways and I stand corrected. I expected getting a bit of a kicking so it's no problem. What I cant google though is why you, my fellow forumites, are using the settings you do and what you personally think is good/bad with them. Also, both the manual and google will indeed tell me fast 'what' the different panlaws are and how they mathematically affect the music but not 'why' or essentially 'how' (at least not what I've found yet) they are used or soundwise affect it (like what will I hear for difference using sin/cos or square-root). I'm also in this way, asking what you prefer, after a more subjective than fact-based objective result and think this forum should be a good way to start. Still, I find it interesting that some people took the time to flame me but couldn't take the time to actually answer the question  Thank's a lot for the answers I've gotten this far though.
Sadly very reduced studio equipment as it is... ASUS G750J, 8 gb RAM, Win8, Roland Quad Capture.
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bitflipper
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 13:41:00
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0db is the default because it mimics the behavior of conventional mixing consoles.
WARNING: If you're happy with your current pan law, don't change it.
I once decided to experiment with different pan laws, not realizing at the time that it is NOT a per-project setting. It is a global setting that will be applied from then on, including projects previously mixed with a different pan law. The first old project I brought up that had pan automation sounded absolutely dreadful, as if it had not been mixed yet. Yikes.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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tubeydude
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 13:58:58
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I'll second bitflipper on that! It can mess you up.
One thing to consider that if you are very used to working on analog desks, then you might want to use the -3 dB setting. This is typically how analog panning works. There is typically a resistor network on the pan pots that give the -3 dip in the middle. As I understand, it was part of the "secret sauce" some mixers used to get a bigger sound.
But yeah, figure out what you want and then stick with it or be prepared to re-mix everything you have again...
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Legion
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 14:01:03
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Thanks a bunch for your posts. What I still can't understand though (and I have googled now ) is the difference between sin/cos or square root...
Sadly very reduced studio equipment as it is... ASUS G750J, 8 gb RAM, Win8, Roland Quad Capture.
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j boy
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 14:07:58
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You can analyze pan laws till you're blue in the face, my friend, but frankly "the juice may not be worth the squeeze"...
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jpkeys
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 14:26:06
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
I once decided to experiment with different pan laws, not realizing at the time that it is NOT a per-project setting. It is a global setting that will be applied from then on, including projects previously mixed with a different pan law. The first old project I brought up that had pan automation sounded absolutely dreadful, as if it had not been mixed yet. Yikes.
Similar experience here. I once did a Sonar reinstall, and afterwards could not figure out why my mixes sounded different. Took me a while to realize I had changed the pan law to -3dB center, and on the reinstall it was reset to 0dB. While I actually prefer -3dB center, I now leave it at the default just so I don't get bit by this again. I understand at least one other DAW saves the pan law setting with the project; that sure would be nice and would avoid what bitflipper and I ran into.
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tubeydude
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 14:29:10
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the sin/cos thing and square root just determine the curve of the pan.
sort of like how you can select different fade ins and fade outs... you can have fast linear or slow here. Sin/cos would just be different than square root.
don't worry about the minutia here. Just use the default and worry about making some music.
Good luck..
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papa2004
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 15:06:18
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ORIGINAL: Legion
The people flaming me for not using Google are right in some ways and I stand corrected. I expected getting a bit of a kicking so it's no problem. What I cant google though is why you, my fellow forumites, are using the settings you do and what you personally think is good/bad with them. Also, both the manual and google will indeed tell me fast 'what' the different panlaws are and how they mathematically affect the music but not 'why' or essentially 'how' (at least not what I've found yet) they are used or soundwise affect it (like what will I hear for difference using sin/cos or square-root). I'm also in this way, asking what you prefer, after a more subjective than fact-based objective result and think this forum should be a good way to start.
Still, I find it interesting that some people took the time to flame me but couldn't take the time to actually answer the question
Thank's a lot for the answers I've gotten this far though.
I didn't get the impression that anyone was "flaming" you...I certainly wasn't...My first reply was a legitimate answer (a "what I'm mixing" preference)...
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Hansenhaus
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 15:58:27
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Bit, I believe -3dB in the center is the standard for your typical analog console. It also allows for more head room. Definitely don't change the setting in an existing project. Everything will get out of whack. However, I recommend you use -3dB center in the future. Google - Pan Laws - top link: http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/tips/panning_laws/ Eric ORIGINAL: bitflipper
0db is the default because it mimics the behavior of conventional mixing consoles.
WARNING: If you're happy with your current pan law, don't change it.
I once decided to experiment with different pan laws, not realizing at the time that it is NOT a per-project setting. It is a global setting that will be applied from then on, including projects previously mixed with a different pan law. The first old project I brought up that had pan automation sounded absolutely dreadful, as if it had not been mixed yet. Yikes.
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evansmalley
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 17:37:20
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the difference between sin/cos or square root...?
yeah that bizarre to me too! sin/cos... square root... huh? And it's absolutely right to get on here and use the forum to ask users what they think... it's what it's for! It's a community. And a crabby one sometimes! But you gotta love 'em! They're very helpful between the crabbings...
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Hansenhaus
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 19:47:08
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ORIGINAL: evansmalley
the difference between sin/cos or square root...?
yeah that bizarre to me too! sin/cos... square root... huh?
And it's absolutely right to get on here and use the forum to ask users what they think... it's what it's for! It's a community. And a crabby one sometimes! But you gotta love 'em! They're very helpful between the crabbings...
A while ago we discussed this here and someone posted a graphic representation of how sin/cos works vs. sqaure root. It's probably hard to find at this point. In the end the difference was not that much and to be honest my projects are mixed up between the two. I always use -3dB center but which one doesn't matter to me. I can't hear a difference but it's hard to without being able to instantly A/B the two which you can't. I got on the OP becuase he openly admited he was too lazy to search and that annoys me. Now I understand searching for stuff on the forum can be combersome but Google rules and the top hit on my search got me the best answer. I mean c'mon if you are too lazy to use Google you don't deserve to know. What next, will someone have to go to the guy's house and actually pick his fat butt off the couch and put his hand on the mouse and keyboard? I'm just tired of people who are lazy in the this country....ah but don't get me started on that!  In the end he got his answer without having to do any research of his own.
post edited by Hansenhaus - 2008/11/13 12:15:29
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NYSR
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/12 23:10:59
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Basically
What pan law: The one that makes sense to you
Why: Because it makes sense to you.
They are all good, they are just different. Do not use more than one unless you understand them well enough for both to make a different sense to you. If only one made sense there would only be one.
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Legion
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 01:43:49
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Original: Hansenhaus In the end he got his answer without having to do any research of his own. Ha ha, I win! (Just kidding). The reason I was to lazy was that the forum search is crap and my google (in Sweden) don't show what yours are showing. I only got a crappy wikiedia article worse than than the manual (wich I've read)... The reason for being lazy should probably be more like having to much to do to have time to scavenge the internet and forum search beacause so it was not a case of sitting in the couch and no, I'm not fat Understand your position totally though with what you've written in mind. Also the thing I was interested in was 1) what and why you forumites do what you do (subjective) and 2) the difference between the same-setting-laws (0 or 0. -3 or -3...). I admit I might not have been totally clear on that. I will definitely check that harmony central link out thanks, my google didn't show it...  Thank you all for your input!
Sadly very reduced studio equipment as it is... ASUS G750J, 8 gb RAM, Win8, Roland Quad Capture.
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spindlebox
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 02:21:11
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The 0db center means that things get 3db louder as you move them to the center from the sides, mimicking the natural behavior of stereo sound reproduction. I'm accustomed to that behavior, and it seems very natural to me. As I pan things out to the sides, I tend to turn them down anyway, since they become clearer as they move out of the congestion. This pan law just does it for me automatically.
Some folks find it disconcerting when the volume changes with panning, which is why the -3db option exists. WOW! Thanks bit! This is VERY HELPFUL. This is actually explained better than in SONAR 7 Power! (Sorry Scott.) I have mine set to -3db (because SCOTT told me to, and I follow directions like a mindless automaton when advice comes from those with superior knowledge . . . but I digress . . . )— —but I still notice a bit of dropoff when I pan to the sides. This bugs me. What setting prevents this from happening? I just want the volume to stay constant throughout the pan. Is what I'm experiencing NOT supposed to happen? Because, BIT, in your post it sounds like it's not supposed to. Maybe I'm being ultra sensitive, but if I noticed the volume change BEFORE I knew the above - there HAS to be something. It's not just a placebo effect. Anyway FWIW, no question is a dumb question, especially since I just learned something new on a "redundant" post!
post edited by spindlebox - 2008/11/13 02:25:40
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papa2004
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 04:54:51
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—but I still notice a bit of dropoff when I pan to the sides. This bugs me. What setting prevents this from happening? I just want the volume to stay constant throughout the pan. 0 dB Center, Balance Control--this choice causes no boost in a signal that's panned hard left or right, and no dip in output level in either channel when the signal is center panned.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 06:26:38
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"the juice may not be worth the squeeze"... Love it!!!!
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jpkeys
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 06:50:30
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ORIGINAL: papa2004
—but I still notice a bit of dropoff when I pan to the sides. This bugs me. What setting prevents this from happening? I just want the volume to stay constant throughout the pan.
0 dB Center, Balance Control--this choice causes no boost in a signal that's panned hard left or right, and no dip in output level in either channel when the signal is center panned.
Wrong answer. When using that setting, a signal in the center will sound louder that when panned to one side or the other. Constant volume can only be achieved by boosting the signal when panned or attenuating it when centered. As bitflipper said: The 0db center means that things get 3db louder as you move them to the center from the sides
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spindlebox
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 06:52:01
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ORIGINAL: papa2004
—but I still notice a bit of dropoff when I pan to the sides. This bugs me. What setting prevents this from happening? I just want the volume to stay constant throughout the pan.
0 dB Center, Balance Control--this choice causes no boost in a signal that's panned hard left or right, and no dip in output level in either channel when the signal is center panned.
THIS IS WHERE THE CONFUSION STARTS!!!!! The 0db center means that things get 3db louder as you move them to the center from the sides, mimicking the natural behavior of stereo sound reproduction. I'm accustomed to that behavior, and it seems very natural to me. As I pan things out to the sides, I tend to turn them down anyway, since they become clearer as they move out of the congestion. This pan law just does it for me automatically. so the key is BALANCE CONTROL? Sorry I'm thick, but THANKS! EDIT: I see JP Keys beat me to it at just about the same time I was composing this. SO perhaps (not TOO thick!?)
post edited by spindlebox - 2008/11/13 06:55:44
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SongCraft
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RE: What panlaw and why?
2008/11/13 08:04:06
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Pan laws, pan laws, who broke the law!? Urrm balance and levels are the key and the fact that I use SONAR only! I don't flirt with other DAWS or my wife would slap me {Oh Yeah Baby}
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