Helpful ReplyWhat sample rate?

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jazzwombat
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2013/09/10 09:15:32 (permalink)

What sample rate?

Sorry for the beginner's question, but what sample rate is most commonly used in home music recording? By default, I've been using 44.1 kHz, as that's the the default rate on my M-Audio interface. Is there any benefit and improvement to my recordings by moving the knob up to 48 kHz or higher?
 
Thanks for your advice and opinions.
 
Bob
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Leadfoot
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 09:23:04 (permalink)
There's minimal difference between 44 and 48, or even 96khz for that matter. Noticeable difference between 16bit and 24bit though.
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Guitarhacker
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 09:35:53 (permalink)
Set your audio recording to 24 bits as default.  Export to Wave with 16 bits. (CD quality is 16 bits/44.1Khz sampling rate)
 
I use 24bit recording and export 16/44.1 and it sounds good. It works for me.
 
It's possible to record at higher sample rates, it uses more hard drive space and for home and small commercial studio projects, you can not hear the difference.

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robert_e_bone
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 09:39:28 (permalink)
I believe DVD and film are at 48, while CD is 44.1, but as noted there is not much difference.  Many sample libraries are at 44.1, but certainly not all.  (some are even at 96, from what I hear).
 
I used to use 44.1, and was quite happy with it, as it didn't tax my system (24-bit), but I recently switched to 48k, to match a friend of mine's sample rate.  (his interface defaults to 48k).
 
As noted above, using 24-bit is where you will see a difference, over 16-bit.
 
Bob Bone
 

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garrigus
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 10:05:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/24 16:22:13
If you only plan to export to CD or MP3 and you want to avoid sample rate conversion, then you can stay with 24-bit, 44.1 kHz.
 
If you're working with video and plan to export to DVD and want to avoid sample rate conversion, then go with 24-bit, 48 kHz. For Blu-ray, it's even higher...
 
Scott

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bitflipper
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 10:29:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/24 16:22:27
As noted by Scott and Robert above, choose the sample rate based on what you'll be doing with the audio later. If it's going to end up on a DVD, use 48. If you'll be sharing files with a pro studio, use 96. If you'll be collaborating with someone, use whatever rate they're using. Otherwise, stick with 44.1. 
 
Even if you might someday share files with others, 44.1 is still a safe option. The only reason for choosing something else is to avoid having to convert your audio to another sample rate later. And that's really not a big deal. Samplerate conversions usually don't hurt your sound quality, and SONAR will automatically perform the conversion when you import a file with a different rate than your project.
 
Just don't let anybody tell you that you must record at a higher rate because it sounds better.
 
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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robert_e_bone
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 11:25:41 (permalink)
If you are producing files going to CD, then you must convert at some point to 16-bit.  Most folks do this during the export of audio, but some do it outside of Sonar altogether.  Doesn't matter - it's purely personal preference, but 16-bit is the CD standard.
 
MP3 files don't care about bit-depth.
 
Bob Bone

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
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Chregg
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 11:55:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/24 13:39:12
the great old sampling rate debate, the most divided and subjective topic in audio !!!
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drewfx1
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 12:22:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/24 13:39:00
Just a note - in the modern world sample rate conversion (SRC) is simply not a problem.
 
At one time transparent SRC was a problem, so many people will still advise you to use a rate that matches the output you desire to avoid doing the SRC. But with modern SRC routines any artifacts created are far below being audible (if they even make it to the output bits at all), and that advice no longer applies today.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Freddie H
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 12:53:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/24 16:28:17
jazzwombat
Sorry for the beginner's question, but what sample rate is most commonly used in home music recording? By default, I've been using 44.1 kHz, as that's the the default rate on my M-Audio interface. Is there any benefit and improvement to my recordings by moving the knob up to 48 kHz or higher?
 
Thanks for your advice and opinions.
 
Bob


Yes 48kHz 32bit floating and above sounds always better.
That is why we majority professional use it. Due to up sampling of all plugins and EQ filter VSTI makes it sound better even if the final mastered result is a cd in format 44.1 kHz 16bit.
 
 
Best Regards
Freddie


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bobguitkillerleft
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 13:32:36 (permalink)
bitflipper
Just don't let anybody tell you that you must record at a higher rate because it sounds better.
 

Even if it''s somebody like Bob Olhsson?,who NEVER said one"must",he just said something one day on GS that [I can't find the thread unfortunately,so I do genuinely hope I'm not badly misquoting the man!] "I played back some of my older things[?] at 96KHz[again I'm not sure,if he meant he re-recorded,or just simply changed the "sample rate"]and they definitely had an improved sound"
 
I'm very sorry if this offends[or worse doesn't],it's just,as an "experiment" I changed everything in "Preffs.-Audio Data" to the highest-64[even on my lowly Dell xps L502x i7 Sandy Bridge mobile cpu 2630qm,and [of course!]the Highest Sample Rate on my 09 SONAR V-Studio 100,loaded an old project,remixed with the NEW settings and yes,I hardly noticed a difference.
 
A: I have Extremely LOUD Never abating "broken" Crash Cymbal or "Hissing" sounding Tinnitus [ever since October 23 1993]EDIT: Do I?
 
B: I only have "Ro*** 5" monitors,which I HATE with an almost "violence inducing" passion,so Iv'e only been using my old Stereo Speakers ATM.
 
Left Tannoy EATON-10" driver-pepper pot tweeter-within the driver,something called "Dual Concentric"Integrated LoudSpeaker System.
 
Right 8" driver/woofer,2" Tweeter housed in a rather crappy Home Made cabinet[not by me though]both powered by a Sherwood RA-1140 Reciever/Amp.and until I realized the then unfamiliar VS-100 was quite seriously "overdriving" the output signal,was even a "Hair"over "Unity" on the playback pot,the previously "stunning top end clarity" of the Much Loved EATON,was now ruined,to just being "ordinary".
 
Though My First EVER CD,was The WHO,Who's Next-original Aussie Release,bought in 1986.
 
The problem was I'd only used "Bus Powered" USB 1.1,and 2.0[N.I. ***] before,and it still brings a "tear to my eye" that after 20 years of even cassettes[brings to mind Soungardens 1994 SUPERUNKNOWN LP-Snare Drum clarity]was now GONE.
 
I also do checks of mixes,attempts at checking masters before inflicting an already bombarded with"complete toss" public,via soundcloud with the strangely maligned SONY MDR-7509HD Headphones,and THEN I sensed a possibly imaginary improvement,BEFORE exporting to "The Cloud"at 24 bit 44.1 .wav files[which seem to take an eternity-while sufferable,does amuse one how a 105mb "download" is often a minute or so,but the same sized "upload" to soundcloud,can at times take nearly a "half episode" of the English SPY series SPOOKS.
 
My conclusion to all this is 24bit record/renderring,Original import settings[Audio Data-Preffs.]and 48KHz is the best I'm gonna get[esp. with the "dynamic" only mic's],also in regard to HDD space/cpu power consumption/cruelty.
Sincerely
Bob Sattler
post edited by bobguitkillerleft - 2013/09/24 16:19:14

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Jim Roseberry
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 14:17:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/14 11:04:51
bobguitkillerleft
 
I'm very sorry if this offends[or worse doesn't],it's just,as an "experiment" I changed everything in "Preffs.-Audio Data" to the highest-64[even on my lowly Dell xps L502x i7 Sandy Bridge mobile cpu 2630qm,and [of course!]the Highest Sample Rate on my 09 SONAR V-Studio 100,loaded an old project,remixed with the NEW settings and yes,I hardly noticed a difference.
 



That's not overly surprising...
The source material was captured at lower sample-rate.
(ie: Sample-rate converting from 44.1k to 96k won't add what wasn't originally captured.)
The only advantage you'd have is the higher resolution when mixing/processing.
 
Working at higher sample-rates is a judgement call balancing quality vs. performance.
IME, The sound-stage is more 3D and detailed when working at higher sample-rates (not simply more high end).
That said, no record has been (or ever will be) purchased solely because the sample-rate at which it was recorded.
Far too many other variables affect the final quality of your work.  Most importantly, the song... (performance/arrangement/acoustics/mic position/etc)
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
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robert_e_bone
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 14:44:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/24 13:38:23
I want no part of the 'range wars' on what sounds better, and only post this to say that my earlier comments were only reflecting the need to produce song files for CD output at 44.1 K, and that DVD is 48 K.
 
The rest of this endless debate is the same as it has been for years and years, and it will not get resolved here whatsoever.
 
So, to the original poster, I hope you got some assistance from my earlier comments, and I hope you manage to skip the rest of this thread.
 
Bob Bone
 

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
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jazzwombat
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 14:56:15 (permalink)
To Bob Bone: Yes, I did, and yes, I have. lol. - Bob
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drewfx1
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 15:06:36 (permalink)
robert_e_bone
The rest of this endless debate is the same as it has been for years and years, and it will not get resolved here whatsoever.

 
Actually it has changed somewhat over the years - because technology and practices have evolved in various ways that people may or may not be aware of the significance of.
But it is indeed unlikely to be resolved here anytime soon. 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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brconflict
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 16:34:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/23 19:03:07
Something to consider, you may check with your A/D manufacturer (or critics) to see what the A/D converter samples best at. For example, there's a (remains to be unnamed) A/D converter on the market that supports 192kHz, but really operates best at 96kHz. Marketing is to blame there.
 
Personally, I can't really hear the difference between 48kHz, 96kHz, and 192kHz. For most, the higher sampling rates typically just honor the top-end better or more accurately, but then we're talking inaudible high-frequency. 192kHz also eats more disk-drive space and places a larger load on the DAW machine.
 
I prefer 96kHz to the lower rates, but that's only because my own A/D converter is designed with 96kHz in mind, and it's also the maximum sampling rate. However, if I had to use 48kHz, I certainly wouldn't cry about it. More of my time is spent getting the most out of 24-bit, recording as best as I can, using the best mics and pre's I own (or rent), and concentrate on the best mix.
 
Hope this helps!!

Brian
 
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doncolga
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/10 23:46:43 (permalink)
24 bit 44.1 K or 48 K here.

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Chregg
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/11 03:45:00 (permalink)
suprised this thread hasn't reached 10 pages yet with people baying for blood
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Chregg
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/11 03:51:38 (permalink)
This !!!! "The sound-stage is more 3D and detailed when working at higher sample-rates", internal processing benefits from higher sampling rates as well, i think people seem to forget that, and think sampling rates are all about recording
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Chregg
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/11 03:53:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/23 19:03:36
"Just a note - in the modern world sample rate conversion (SRC) is simply not a problem." I use voxengo's r8 brain pro, but sonar's src is pretty good
 
#20
gswitz
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/11 07:12:49 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/23 19:04:01
I agree with the 24 bit and 44.1 or 48 kHz rates for recording because the higher processing cost of the double and quadruple depths don't have benefits I can detect for the music I'm mixing.
 
I do think there is value in getting a good interface. There is an audible difference between 24 bit 44.1 on a $100 USD interface and on a $1000 USD interface. Interfaces that work at higher rates fairly well tend to improve their lower rates as they push the higher ones for quality.
 
I'm guessing here...
When you have an interface that does 192, but set it to 48, I think you just get every 4th sample. I believe the interface itself is still sampling at 192. For my RME, that means that the RME internal compession, EQ and Reverb will work on the 24 bit 192 signal, even when the device is set to work at 48. So, when I run sound with the device and send to the mains directly from the interface, I'm working at 192 even when I'm recording at 48.
 
It's also possible for me to record all the tracks plus the mains I'm sending to the PA, giving me a 48 kHz stereo track of the live mix done at 192.
 
Please, jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/11 09:43:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/23 19:04:19
While I also agree that better interfaces are simply better, I believe that has more to do with the pre-amps and the quality of the A/D & D/A converters than the mere fact that a given interface happens to have 192k available and you are sampling at a lower rate.  Some research out there I recall seeing concluded that some vendors have 192k sample rates on one or more interface models, but as more of a marketing ploy suggesting a better interface than it is - where even with the 192k sample rate available they have the best quality produced at either 48k or 96k, for example.
 
If I recall correctly, the OP had gotten his answers earlier in the thread, and at this point folks are engaging in the endless sample rate debate with no hope of convincing anybody of anything (as it has usually gone every other time I have ever seen this discussion in any prior thread).
 
:)
 
Bob Bone
 
 
Bob Bone
 
post edited by robert_e_bone - 2013/09/11 13:11:15

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
#22
Jim Roseberry
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/11 11:20:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/23 19:04:33
gswitz
 
I do think there is value in getting a good interface. There is an audible difference between 24 bit 44.1 on a $100 USD interface and on a $1000 USD interface. 



Agreed.  
 
A typical audio interface has a noise-floor somewhere between -103dB and -107dB.
The higher cost units have a noise-floor somewhere between -114dB and -117dB.
Say (very roughly) that's a 6dB difference in noise-floor.
Not overly obvious on a single track of audio.
But... multiply that 6dB difference across 24 or 48 tracks of audio... and it's a substantial difference.
Akin to a veil of noise being lifted from the material...

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#23
Jim Roseberry
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/11 11:26:16 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/23 19:02:15
Here's a link if you want to brush up on over-sampling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversampling
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
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drewfx1
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/11 11:45:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/23 19:04:59
gswitz
I'm guessing here...
When you have an interface that does 192, but set it to 48, I think you just get every 4th sample. I believe the interface itself is still sampling at 192.



 
Slightly more complicated than that:
 
Almost all mainstream modern converters oversample to varying degrees, but when downsampling to the output sample rate it needs to be filtered digitally before dropping the extra samples (dropping the extra samples is known as decimation). So you have two filters, an analog antialiasing filter and a digital decimation filter. This allows for a much gentler analog filter, a gentler filter being much easier to implement in the analog domain than a steep one, and a steep digital filter.
 
And in some cases, particularly with DAC's, if you read the specs you will see that a 24bit converter often will state that it's using "Xx oversampled 20bit" conversion or something like that. But this doesn't mean it's a really only a 20bit converter, as it's actually quite possible, though not intuitively easy to understand, to trade bit depth for sample rate (at a cost of some added noise).

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/11 12:01:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/23 19:02:02
The theoretical dynamic range of 24Bit audio is 144dB.
The highest quality A/D D/A units yield about 120dB dynamic range.
The theoretical dynamic rage of 20Bit audio is 120dB.
 
Essentially, we're working with 20Bit resolution

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
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www.studiocat.com
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drewfx1
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/11 12:43:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/23 19:05:40
Jim Roseberry
The theoretical dynamic range of 24Bit audio is 144dB.
The highest quality A/D D/A units yield about 120dB dynamic range.


There are actually a few converters that can go higher than that (from a noise perspective), such as this:
 
http://www.stagetec.com/en/audio-technology-products/standalone-converter.html
 
Typically things like this run a number of individual converters in parallel with varying degrees of attenuation and then output the one that is near the top of its range without clipping and digitally compensate for the attenuation.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#27
bobguitkillerleft
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/14 12:45:35 (permalink)
Jim Roseberry
bobguitkillerleft
 
I'm very sorry if this offends[or worse doesn't],it's just,as an "experiment" I changed everything in "Preffs.-Audio Data" to the highest-64[even on my lowly Dell xps L502x i7 Sandy Bridge mobile cpu 2630qm,and [of course!]the Highest Sample Rate on my 09 SONAR V-Studio 100,loaded an old project,remixed with the NEW settings and yes,I hardly noticed a difference.
 



That's not overly surprising...
The source material was captured at lower sample-rate.
(ie: Sample-rate converting from 44.1k to 96k won't add what wasn't originally captured.)
The only advantage you'd have is the higher resolution when mixing/processing.
 
Working at higher sample-rates is a judgement call balancing quality vs. performance.
IME, The sound-stage is more 3D and detailed when working at higher sample-rates (not simply more high end).
That said, no record has been (or ever will be) purchased solely because the sample-rate at which it was recorded.
Far too many other variables affect the final quality of your work.  Most importantly, the song... (performance/arrangement/acoustics/mic position/etc)
 


Awesome reply Jim Roseberry,Thank You!
 
Those last 3 sentences,but especially["That said...,and extra specifically for me IMNSHO[at times,it seems :(] "Most Importantly,the song... (performance/arrangement/acoustics/mic position/etc)-the BIG BIG part many of us sometimes[all the times myself?!] really really LACK[to be brutally opinionated,and perhaps stupidly honest about "That Stuff"]
 
Was/IS super-to be intelligently reinforced that a "Great Song" especially made WAY better by smart,concise arrangement[to me possibly a lot more important/lacking with my own material that Iv'e actually "whipped together/recorded" almost insanely quick,[and IS ALL my soundcloud-Stuff!]once I became even barely able to record[all done with the $13.33 each[3 pack Behringer XM1800S mics]-$39 something USD in the U.S,[?]AFAIK-$79 AUD in Oz,that I paid,about 4 years before I'd ever typed/used any computer,let alone knowing any more about digital recording,other than-"Pro Tools is what people use" on "those computer things"let alone EVEN knowing the term DAW,hence why I first bought in Feb 2011 the now discontinued/superceeded Tascam 2488[quickly sold Thank Goodness-if you're a killer songsmith/producer,I'm sure they're GREAT,but],and all ordered from the P4 IBM an incredibly generous friend gave me at first,late 2010.
 
I found out about SONAR from The CDR of 8.5LE inside the AT2020/2021 pack[still these mics are embarrassingly unused yet-info no one really needs to know AT all,though I feel ATM to "expose"....why is that Dr.???]
 
All my available time has been spent learning X1 studio/Producer,X2a and "futzing"-Hence Jim your"The source material was captured at lower sample-rate"makes a BIG deal AND "why I can't seem to better it ANYMORE"!!!!221 re-mixed versions of the absolute first take "nutshell" soooLOL now-1 XM on the 4x12,another to sing with,at the same time" with first takes[of absolutely everything],as computers,with virtual mixing desks,of what I was so thrilled "allowed to see and use"[not touch-except when my guitar sound was overly AWFUL-and engineer,didn't seem to notice!]back in 86-92 LOL,so getting something-anything newer on soundcloud-[first it was a new intergration of X1d?] was paramount.
 
Re-mixing,re-masterring,learning a few more SONAR possibilities,rather than really writing,re-recording,[with better mics than the dynamic Behringers!]is NEXT I hope![though they're alright next to a battered[like fish? sorry,it's late here] SM-58 in reality[?].
THANK YOU
Sincerely
Bob

https://soundcloud.com/rks26https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitmen Lenovo W540 Factoryrefurb SONAR PLATINUM,Ozone 7 N.I. KA6 Komplete 9 SSD4 Platinum Epi L/H LP Custom Headstock broken twice and fixed.Gibson L/H Les Paul 2010 Wine Red Studio stupid Right Hand Vol.Tone for Left Hand?LH84Ibanez RS135 gen.FloydRose JB Marshall 100w 2203 4x25w Celestion Green backs
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#28
jimusic
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/14 15:21:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/23 19:01:42
Well, I'll be humble enough to stay out of the discussion, as there are areas where I know my stuff, but admittedly this isn't one of them.
 
To simply answer the OP, I usually just go with 44.1K/24 bit.
 
If I think I'll be doing anything for film, I'll change that to 48K.
 
Otherwise, most things seem to default to 44.1k which, for me is fine almost all of the time.
 
As state, there are a number of other variables that will affect your recordings & mixes far more outside of that anyway, so that's where I'm learning as much as I can for now.
 
I will admit that I'm surprised that it was mentioned 3 times above to use 48k for DVDs.
 
I had always heard 96k/24 bit, and hence why some were using those instead of CDs for their final burns - at least as physical stored & archived master copies.
 
Perhaps things have changed lately.



 
 
#29
bobguitkillerleft
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Re: What sample rate? 2013/09/24 13:45:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/24 16:00:33
 
 
Jim Roseberry
 
That's not overly surprising...
The source material was captured at lower sample-rate.
(ie: Sample-rate converting from 44.1k to 96k won't add what wasn't originally captured.)
The only advantage you'd have is the higher resolution when mixing/processing.
 
Working at higher sample-rates is a judgement call balancing quality vs. performance.
IME, The sound-stage is more 3D and detailed when working at higher sample-rates (not simply more high end).
That said, no record has been (or ever will be) purchased solely because the sample-rate at which it was recorded.
Far too many other variables affect the final quality of your work.  Most importantly, the song... (performance/arrangement/acoustics/mic position/etc)



Thank You again,your answer [After Thinking It Over And Over,the last few days...especially] cleared up a [Huge-seemingly now!... a whple other"mess of Questions" I had,but were "believe it or not!- too woosed out"badly"[of course] to try and get another answer,from the actually Very [IMNSHO at that time] "ESTEEMED Bob O." on GS!
 
Instead of...............this particulary NSHIS especially much now....  hmmmH  Bob here!on Cakewalk's  forum........perhaps........for?
 
 Cheers  [also "Very ESTEEMED!-IMNS..]  "Jim Roseberry!" 
 Sincerely
Bob Sattler
post edited by bobguitkillerleft - 2013/09/24 15:48:54

https://soundcloud.com/rks26https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitmen Lenovo W540 Factoryrefurb SONAR PLATINUM,Ozone 7 N.I. KA6 Komplete 9 SSD4 Platinum Epi L/H LP Custom Headstock broken twice and fixed.Gibson L/H Les Paul 2010 Wine Red Studio stupid Right Hand Vol.Tone for Left Hand?LH84Ibanez RS135 gen.FloydRose JB Marshall 100w 2203 4x25w Celestion Green backs
"You are what you is"-Frank Zappa "But I'm gonna wave my freak flag high"-Jimi Hendrix    
#30
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