What standard laptops are you using successfully?

HI,
since you mentioned USB i wont go into great detail of why they dont work for firewire.
i will however mention most Firewire interfaces are better than most USB with very very few exceptions the rme UC being one of them, the Motu USB isnt too bad either but still not as good as the RME. thus why most people want firewire.
but let me clear a few mis understandings.

1) it has nothing to do with software or how software is written.
2) it has nothing to do with specs of the laptops (assuming they are new, have a decent intel processor, 4gig ram and a 7200 rpm drive) onboard video or dedicated video really does not mean squat any more either.
3) not all laptops are created equal even if specs match

4) no present day manufacturer of laptops (FYI Dell, HP, Apple, Gateway, Acer etc do NOT make thier own laptops there are made for them with the exception of Asus who also makes others laptops)
expects you to use the laptop as a high end workstation
they are designed to have long battery life, low wattage use, be light and small note the disappearance of firewire from most as well.

what it does have to do with is;

1) DPC latency even with a USB interface if you are getting DPC spikes you will get dropouts.
sometimes you can disable a few things (or most things with some) like networking, IR, bluetooth etc etc even as far as having to run the video card in vga mode (Ugly)
Sometimes no matter what you do you cant get rid of the spikes. this would be true for firewire as well.

2)USB ports and voltage and shared.
again not all laptops are created equal.
almost all that have a eSata port share that with a USB (usb esata rather than a direct connect to the ICH)
so that slot is crap and even worse if using with an esata device.
the other 2 can also share with things and or be undervolted.
while others work great.
often the bios is written with low voltage long battery life in mind effecting high bandwith use of any slot.

sheesh and i didnt even discuss Firewire.

again its not cakewalk..... or any software
most laptops will work ok for USB some better than others.

I'm on my third IBM (Lenovo) Thinkpad now and I just love these things. My original stage laptop was a Sony Vaio 2.6GHz P4 with 2Gb ram and I had nothing but trouble with dropouts and freezes.

I swapped to an IBM T43 1.86GHz Pentium-M with 2Gb of ram and it worked flawlessly straight out of the box. I now use it as my internet machine.

I subsequently upgraded to a T43 2GHz with 2Gb and 2*7200rpm HDD and am now using a T60 T7300 with 4Gb ram and 2*7200rpm HDD. My other T43 is now doing great service as an FXTeleport server in my studio.

These things are built like tanks and utterly reliable, although I have heard that the later, Lenovo designed, Thinkpads are not quite as well built as the original IBM ones.

"And I do it all from the internal sound card (with ASIO4ALL). "

enough said right there...

My first experience with latops & Sonar was a few years ago when Sonar2 came out.
It just didn't do it for me so I gave up.

I came back to PC recording in late 2006, when the laptops had improved.
So I took the plunge (again), bought an off-the-shelf Lenovo 3000, an Edirol FA66, and Sonar 6PE.
Since then, I have never had any issues with using Laptops & Sonar.
That's it really.

I am probably a fairly typical user.
Everything done at home, no fancy studio, etc...

I don't have lots of money to throw around on this stuff.
So... my computer also has things like MS Office, MS Expression, Photoshop, Internet, Email, Bluetooth, etc, etc.

I have used Lenovo, HP, and Toshiba.
All off-the-shelf in the £300-£500 price range... so nothing extravigant.
I do have a external soundcard though.
I started with an Edirol FA66, and currently use the FA101 (I needed a few more inputs).


Now, don't get me wrong, I am sure a bespoke desktop PC costing £1000++ designed just for music will be better than my Toshiba Satellite Pro laptop.
But, as this to me is just a hobby, then I have to live in the real world, where my money has to go on other things too.

Why is it taking people so many tracks to just get a good song done? The Beatles did the early stuff on a Sony Four Track. "Boston" did platinum records on a Teac 8 track. ZZ Top did Tres Hombres and those 70s records on 8 and 16 track. We're gonna beat that with 48? 64? or even 128 + MIDI? The amount of tracks available on some of the various software is staggering and I still have no idea why it is needed.

 
In all seriousness, I urge you to buy/test a few inexpensive laptops.
(Make sure you have the option to return the unit)
If you try to run some soft-synths like Ivory, Omnisphere, Massive, etc (the heavy ones), or if you want to work at very low latency settings (to play/monitor in realtime thru a nice AmpSim plugin like Amplitube Fender), what we're saying will start to sink in.  Doesn't matter to me one way or another what your laptop costs.  
But the reality is that most laptops (cheap or relatively expensive) don't make particularly good DAWs.
This is so well documented that you can literally read hundreds of existing posts about it... on numerous discussion forums.  As long as you go into the situation knowing the pitfalls/limitations, more power to you.
 
 
Regarding track-count:
Track count can start to add up quickly
Here's a typical example of a simple arrangement (bass, guitar, drums, vocals):

1. Overheads Left
2. Overheads Right
3. Kick
4. Snare
5. 10 Tom
6. 12 Tom
7. 14 Tom
8. Room Left
9. Room Right
10. Bass Cab
11. Bass DI
12. Rhythm Guitar (Chorus) Left
13. Rhythm Guitar (Chorus) Right
14. Rhythm Guitar (Verse)
15. Guitar Lead
16. Lead Vocal
17. Vocal double
18. Harmony part 1 (take 1 - Left)
19. Harmony part 2 (take 1 - Left)
20. Harmony part 3 (take 1 - Left)
21. Harmony part 1 (take 2 - Right)
22. Harmony part 2 (take 2 - Right)
23. Harmony part 3 (take 2 - Right)
24. Harmony part 1 (take 3 - Center)
25. Harmony part 2 (take 3 - Center)
26. Harmony part 3 (take 3 - Center)

Note that the above example is using but a single mic on guitar/bass cab.  Many folks mic guitar/bass cabs with two mics (condenser and 57).  If you start adding in keyboards, horns, strings, percussion, or using a large drum-kit... you can see where the track count could easily hit 48 tracks.  A fleshed out "power-trio" demo can easily top 24+ tracks. 
 
Are we spoiled by technology?  Absolutely.
But the genie is out of the bottle.  There's no going back to recording records with 8-track tape machines... at least not for the masses.  I remember when PC DAWs could just barely record 8 channels of 16Bit Audio.  The equivalent of an ADAT.  Back then, you needed a SCSI A/V tuned hard-drive to make it happen.  (About $600 for a 2GB HD that sustained ~8MB/Sec).  A couple of years later... and we could record 64 solid tracks of 16Bit Audio.  A couple of years after that, we could record 64 tracks of 24Bit Audio.  A few more years down the road... and we could run enough realtime EFX/processing to mix those 24Bit tracks.  Forward to the hear and now, and we have enough speed to do all the above at low-latency settings.  BTW, The quality of plugins/processing/soft-synths has gotten a whole lot better over the years (at the expense of greater CPU use).  Have a listen to Omnisphere and compare the sound to Model E (one of the first commercial soft-synths).  Omnisphere is hard on the CPU... but the sound-quality is far superior.
 
I'll repeat my last point about MacBook Pro and Logic.
If you think it's completely smooth sailing... no issues at all... you really need to do some research.
Read the Apple/Logic support forums.  The posts look remarkably similar to what you'll read here (and on other software forums).  The MacBook Pros are nice laptops (once you tweak them), but the custom Clevo i7 laptop that all custom builders use blows even the top-tier MacBook Pro away.  I've got both... and I have a copy of Logic Pro that sits unused... (as frankly the features/performance aren't exciting to me).  IMO, Sonar is the more advanced tool.
I use the MacBook Pro to test compatibility for some of our products.  Otherwise, when it's used... it's used as a PC.
ie:  Cantible 2 Performer absolutely blows away Main Stage.  You can pull a *lot* more glitch free polyphony.  Cantible 2 Performer makes much better use of Multiple CPU cores.
 
Apple has ~5% market share (across the board).
Now take the graphic art folks out of that figure...
Logic 9 certainly has a decent user base, but it's not setting the world on fire.    
Someone on another forum put it best...
"While Apple claims Mac to be the computer choice of cool folks, PCs keep the world working day in and day out."
FWIW, Apple makes far more money on iPods and iTunes than they do selling Mac computers.
In fact, one could argue were it not for the original iPod, Apple may not have survived.
 
 
Back to laptops... 
Good luck on the laptop hunt.
Report back with your experience. 

Regarding what was done with 4 tracks in the 70's 80's whenever, I agree they did amazing things with what was available.  I recorded on my 4-track for years because that's all I had, however it is tough work.  Punch ins, levels, bouncing tracks, i could go on.  Plus, I record like I type, with many many 'tyupoes' as I go.  All the re-takes I had to do..holy cow, I am glad we are out of the 4-track era. 
My experience may not relate to your needs, but I had similiar views "Ive been recording with 4 tracks for so long I dont need 20 stinking tracks!"  So I have a friend build me a computer, cut alot of corners for cost.  I go to guitar center and ask for a cheap sound card that will let me throw down some guitar tracks without latency.  ( I was alot more clueless then compared to now, which says alot)  So I walk out with 130 dollar sound card.  After a couple of months I started getting into projects that were bogging down my computer, and my 130 dollar sound card started giving me all sorts of latency problems with the bigger projects.  In the end, I got fed up, bought a mean machine computer and a decent sound card for 400 bucks.  I realized after that, instead of saving money on a cheaper sound card and computer, it ended up being a big waste of money instead because it could not do what I wanted it to do.
-Good luck with whatever you decide to go with, I would be careful about cutting too many corners and stuck with something that you arent happy with and will have to replace soon.  That is not a money saving venture.
-Mike

Great thread,

Can some users post model numbers, specs and midi/audio track capacity for newer laptops? Jeffb9363 mentioned the thinkpad T60, which is no longer in production.

I am in the market for a laptop for Sonar and Ableton, mainly to start projects for completion on my desktop.

thanks

again USB Should work ok if you only need a few tracks and low latency is not a concern.
firewire is a 99% chance it wont work.
you can always turn stuff off to help with DPC.

I also wonder how so many people manage to use firewire interfaces with laptops that where not custom DAW builds.  Maybe they are all amateurs who don't notice how messed up their systems are?

oh really
point out 1 person whop has a NEW Motevina or i7 laptop (not 2 yrs old)
off the shelf with firewire working.
at a minimum of 256 shold 128 or lower buffer and doing a project at least the size Jim poted above.
the ones i use dont even work without a custom bios. (again for firewire)
and this coming from someone using onboard sound.....

and again if USB it should work... but not always.
 
as to the RME UC. and for that matter Motu.
 
depending on which laptop the RME performs @ 1/2 its ability compared to a desktop.
this has to do with the USB ports i posted above.



 

thats like asking if sata was intended for Apple or Gigabit ethernet was intended for Apple.

to be clear an apple is a pc with a different OS on it thats it. been that way for 4 yrs.
firewire is just a communication protocol.

FYI Apple laptops are not without issues concerning firewire as well, even Apple no longer has TI firewire.
i became an Apple dealer because of this laptop issue, only to have them drop TI firewire as well.

jcschild



firewire is a 99% chance it wont work. 

FFS... what a load of poo.
 
I have always used Firewire with off-the-shelf £300-£500 mass market laptops.
Never had any issues.
 
My laptop, with my firewire Edirol FA101, and Sonar worked fine laster year, worked fine yesterday, and will work fine tomorrow.
 
 
I just connected the Edirol up to my work laptop (now that has all sorts of crap on it).
The Edirol and Sonar all work fine.
So it's absolute rubbish to say FW has 99% chance of failure.
If you have a FW port, the a FW device will work. Simple.

heres one with USB gees imagine that?

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/450465-hp-dv7t-rme-fireface-uc-usb.html

My 7 year old hp ze5170 works just fine with Sonar 7 Producers Edition.
Pentium 2.0, 512ram, 40g, Windows XP Home.
Works great going straight into the mic jack when in a hurry, or using my Emu 1616 PCMCIA,
no latency with either...but then again, I don't place very high demands on it...

I guess that was a dumb post, sorry...

I forgot that most users here are at a much higher level than me...Sonar 7 Pro is overkill for me. I haven't even come close to scratching the capabilities of this program...90% of my projects are audio, very little Synth/MIDI stuff. I'm an old guitar player...I have Keys, bought a Godin xtSA guitar to do more MIDI stuff, a Roland TD-12 drum kit, and they're SO cool, but the ideas just don't come that often...such plans of grandeur, and very little results...

I always think, ain't it something, I have so much more capabilities (gear wise) than the Beatles, so how come my music is so vanilla..........( and then that little voice goes, "It ain't the gear, buddy...).

Ahem....I'll now go back to reading instead of posting.