Helpful ReplyWhat's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays?

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g_randybrown
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2015/05/23 10:09:43 (permalink)

What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays?

I remember there was a CAL script ages ago but I wasn't impressed so much back then and have been painstakingly doing it by hand since.
Just wondering if the script has improved since then or if I need to go with something like this (or something else maybe)?
http://www.midi-plugins.de/mplug/mplug-hum.html
Thanks very much,
Randy

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bitflipper
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 11:29:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/05/24 00:12:55
The best way to humanize MIDI nowadays is the same method it's always been: let a human enter the data in the first place.
 
Seriously. Even if you're not a great keyboardist you can still enter most things via a MIDI keyboard: drums & percussion, synth leads, strings, sound effects - all can be played live on a keyboard. If you screw up too badly, you can always edit your hand-entered MIDI later.
 
I won't say I'm above occasionally dropping notes into the PRV with a mouse, but I never do it with quantization on. If that added snare hit doesn't happen to fall right on the line, I usually don't care unless it sounds weird on playback. 
 
Quantization is the enemy. Scripts and tools for "humanization" blindly apply random timing changes to quantized data. First of all, real human variations are not random. Second, if the data hadn't been quantized to begin with, then "humanization" wouldn't be necessary.
 
 


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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 11:53:42 (permalink)
+1
 
The reason we do not have audio books recorded by Siri, and instead pay voice actors, is that the expression/humanization of an understanding of the material conveyed via the voice is the source of the charm of recitation. Highly quantized music is like reading without inflection, emphasis or or change of pace. The challenge of musicianship is not to hit the right note at time indicated on the score, but to use the subtle variations from that fully quantized rendition to add (or restore) a human interpretation. A random variation does not sound like a human playing, it sounds like a human playing badly.
 
That said, it is not impossible for a computerized system to provide something better than random. Swing quantization is a relatively common example, and fitting parts to a human master rythym track is another. It is definitely possible to improve on simple random quantization with algorithms that will fit in a VST plugin. It may even be possible to train an AI to produce an interpretation that matches the style of a particular musician. If you are a composer just trying to sketch a draft or demo a good "humanize" function may save time and produce an acceptable rendition. But if you are actually making music, no matter how good the algorithm, it will still not be your music.
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 11:57:54 (permalink)
OK, so playing in is best.  I actually am playing most of my stuff these days, BUT, if you're going to go the non-human humanization route, what is the best tool these days?

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g_randybrown
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 12:58:26 (permalink)
Well I do play in a lot of parts (and then tweak later...hey, I'm a drummer so I have an excuse) but when layering many orchestral tracks I copy/paste the parts and adjust accordingly. 
That said, I watched a series of MIDI orchestration vids and the guy was using a "humanize" plug-in in another DAW and he got great results (especially with percussion, brass and stac/spic celli) as the interface had several parameters to dial in.
Hats off to those of you that play well enough but I ain't no keyboard player ...so if anyone has a suggestion (other than buying another DAW) I'd appreciate it.
Thanks again,
Randy

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slartabartfast
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 13:55:23 (permalink)
MIDI actually permits those of us with ten thumbs to do a great deal of expression using text keyboard entry--programming MIDI by hand. It is tedious to the extreme, but every parameter that can be entered via a keyboard MIDI controller can be done without one. Given enough time you can probably even learn to previsualize (preauralize?)  the effects and avoid some of the constant tweak-play-tweak that makes this so slow. On the other hand learning to play a couple of dozen real world instruments takes a while too. A MIDI keyboard is not the best way to do 'drums,' let alone 'wind instrument' effects in any case, but timing and note length are pretty easy to control in a MIDI editor.
 
If you apply a humanize algorithm individually to a large number of parts in an ensemble it might sound pretty fuzzy. If you line up a bunch of parts to a human tempo map, you can still get most of what you are looking for with better control. 
 
 
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mettelus
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 14:14:36 (permalink)
Isn't there a "swing" function in the inspector on a MIDI track? There a a few tools in that area that might help.

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g_randybrown
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 14:15:42 (permalink)
If you apply a humanize algorithm individually to a large number of parts in an ensemble it might sound pretty fuzzy.
Agreed, but if we're talking about slight variations (a few milliseconds) of the various similar instruments it sounds more realistic and IMO can make the layers sound fatter. No doubt one would need to go back and make adjustments here and there but it would be a real time saver for me to utilize a tool like this. 
 
If you line up a bunch of parts to a human tempo map, you can still get most of what you are looking for with better control. 
I'm not sure what you mean by "a human tempo map" but I do spend time making adjustments in the tempo view.
Thanks again,
Randy

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g_randybrown
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 14:18:17 (permalink)
mettelus
Isn't there a "swing" function in the inspector on a MIDI track? There a a few tools in that area that might help.

Maybe I should look into that again but when I tried it long ago all it seemed to do was...well...give it a swing feel which is not what I'm looking for.
Thanks,
Randy

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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 14:43:08 (permalink)
The "swing" in quantize is good for making hi-hats and shakers sound less mechanical but you have to set the percent just a little off 50%, like 52% or 54%.  60% and more starts sounding "swingy" to me, but smaller numbers avoid that mechanical 80s synth-rcok sound.
 
Just an observation, and this is totally a matter of style.  In the past, we would record over and over again until people got the parts perfect.  Then as soon as drum machines arrived, people started complaining they were "too on-beat" and started trying to make them sound like the humans.
 
Personally, I quantize or tweak almost everything (and then shift things a few ticks for doubling, etc., when needed), but I have a very unusual style of music. For Roots Rock or Americana or even Rolling Stones type rock, what I do would sound too stiff.
 
There is a HUMANIZE.CAL program you might try.

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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 15:00:50 (permalink)
Depends on what tracks in what songs need the humanization, no?  So, drumming is one thing and the humanization there is both velocity and timing... humanization on synths might just be timing or maybe you want that SPOT ON.....
 
I agree with everyone else.... it is easier and sounds best if the humanization is created in the first place and then those parts that need more accuracy, quantization might do the trick...  if you can't play the feeling, no math is going to give you the same feeling that you can create on your end.
 
Just my 2 cents,
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...wicked
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 15:42:59 (permalink)
Yah. Groove quantize can get you pretty far along, but I prefer to do something similar to what Bitflipper does. I hand enter the data, only quantize the worst offenders and rarely quantize things at 100%. Even the dance music I write, I leave it a little loose.
 
Hand editing it always the best way to me, that way there really IS something unique happening most of the time. The other big trick to do is to put in small tempo changes near the transitions of the song. slowing a song down 2bpm 2 measures before the chorus, then another bpm one measure before the chorus, and then increasing tempo 4pm at the chorus will really make that transition pop. (it is, after all, a 7 bpm change). Especially when pared with a good drum fill or another cool part that heralds it in. 
 
 

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g_randybrown
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 15:46:49 (permalink)
I don't think I explained my intention very well.
All I want to do is to randomly change the start time of the notes BUT only by a few milliseconds (like real players do in a live performance).
That's all...I would never randomize velocity or anything else, just the start times (by a frog hair).
I've just learned there is indeed a tool in Sonar that does this (right click clip/insert effect/midi fx/CW fx/quantize/random) but I won't get a chance to mess with it until Monday.
Thanks y'all,
Randy

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g_randybrown
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 15:49:26 (permalink)
The other big trick to do is to put in small tempo changes near the transitions of the song. slowing a song down 2bpm 2 measures before the chorus, then another bpm one measure before the chorus, and then increasing tempo 4pm at the chorus will really make that transition pop.
Yessir, that's what I meant when I said I use the tempo view.

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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 16:14:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby BobF 2015/05/23 20:15:52
Best way to do it if you have limited keyboard skills but a decent sense of rhythm/dynamics is to hammer out the rhythm on the keyboard without paying attention to pitch. Just bash it out on whatever keys you like, then go into the PRV and correct the pitches while holding down SHIFT to preserve the timing. If the timing's off then just use the timing tool to nudge the notes toward your required quantize value without them being tick perfect. I don't know why anyone would use any kind of script or humanize tool when the above works perfectly and gives flawless results.

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jih64
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 18:25:44 (permalink)
sharke
Best way to do it if you have limited keyboard skills but a decent sense of rhythm/dynamics is to hammer out the rhythm on the keyboard without paying attention to pitch. Just bash it out on whatever keys you like, then go into the PRV and correct the pitches while holding down SHIFT to preserve the timing. If the timing's off then just use the timing tool to nudge the notes toward your required quantize value without them being tick perfect. I don't know why anyone would use any kind of script or humanize tool when the above works perfectly and gives flawless results.



lol, that is very interesting, I would never of thought of that, I'm going to give that a whirl. Thanking You kind sir
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sharke
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 19:45:00 (permalink)
jih64
sharke
Best way to do it if you have limited keyboard skills but a decent sense of rhythm/dynamics is to hammer out the rhythm on the keyboard without paying attention to pitch. Just bash it out on whatever keys you like, then go into the PRV and correct the pitches while holding down SHIFT to preserve the timing. If the timing's off then just use the timing tool to nudge the notes toward your required quantize value without them being tick perfect. I don't know why anyone would use any kind of script or humanize tool when the above works perfectly and gives flawless results.



lol, that is very interesting, I would never of thought of that, I'm going to give that a whirl. Thanking You kind sir




Hope it works out for you! One thing to remember is that you don't have to have chords or melody in mind when you bash out the rhythm - sometimes I will just improvise a groove and then just move the notes up and down until the harmonic element emerges of its own accord. By separating the rhythm and the harmony/melody like this, you end up with things that you would never have created had you played the whole part in real time. 

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slartabartfast
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 19:51:28 (permalink)
g_randybrown
All I want to do is to randomly change the start time of the notes BUT only by a few milliseconds (like real players do in a live performance).

Except that they don't do that.
 
What real players do is to follow an internal 'groove' (that is demonstrably different than the actual real-time following of the notes of the other players in the ensemble) in a way that makes musical sense. It is impossible for an individual player to play in synchrony to another player on the other side of the stage. The physics of the speed of sound, and the physiology of the nervous system reaction time require that the musician march to his own internal drummer. And that internal drummer is no more random than the guy behind the drums. It is not the error in relating to this internal drummer that makes music human, it is the reliance on it, and the interpretation that it adds to the sound.
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exitthelemming
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 20:01:52 (permalink)
A company called NTONYX (who became JMT) had a suite of MIDI software programs that could apply timing, articulation, pitch bend and modulation values onto existing MIDI data to imitate a human player. They had hundreds of templates sorted into tempo and target instrument type (e.g. bass, guitar, reeds, brass, strings etc) and with judicious 'tweaking', the results were certainly quite authentic. Some of these templates would actually generate additional MIDI data to replicate strumming or trills, ornamentation etc There was a MIDI plug in version but I could never get this to work satisfactorily within any version of SONAR (32 or 64 bit) As a workaround, you could apply the articulations in one of the NTONYX stand alone programs (say, Style Enhancer V4) save and then import the MIDI into SONAR
 

 
 
post edited by exitthelemming - 2015/05/23 20:15:05
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BobF
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 20:12:14 (permalink)
sharke
Best way to do it if you have limited keyboard skills but a decent sense of rhythm/dynamics is to hammer out the rhythm on the keyboard without paying attention to pitch. Just bash it out on whatever keys you like, then go into the PRV and correct the pitches while holding down SHIFT to preserve the timing. If the timing's off then just use the timing tool to nudge the notes toward your required quantize value without them being tick perfect. I don't know why anyone would use any kind of script or humanize tool when the above works perfectly and gives flawless results.



This is a really cool idea that I plan to put some effort into.  I can think of several ways to apply this.

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jih64
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/23 20:20:06 (permalink)
sharke


This is a really cool idea that I plan to put some effort into.  I can think of several ways to apply this.




It certainly is, it did make me laugh when I first read it, mainly the way sharke put it, just bash away giving no thought to pitch, but I can see how it could be quite useful to me, and work quite well in the end.
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mettelus
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/24 00:29:51 (permalink)
I just was playing with that "Humanize.CAL" and the settings seem bass ackwards... low values of "enter percentage" jumble notes all over creation (like "2"), whereas high values (like "50") insert slight nuances in the existing data. Never used this before, but that certainly isn't intuitive. If subtle shifts are desired (and it seems to do "okay"), use high values with Humanize.CAL (low values, even the default "10" is too small, wreak havoc on the data).
 
Groove Quantize on the other hand is the opposite (small values => subtle shifts, high values => drastic shifts).

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dilletant
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/25 08:33:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/05/25 09:17:07
Try this CAL to randomize timing.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cme9jbh2gdj1and/Random%20Time.cal?dl=0
 
And to randomize velocities:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qct6jv393a2uxbw/VELRAND.CAL?dl=0
post edited by dilletant - 2015/05/25 08:40:47
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MarioD
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/25 09:22:30 (permalink)
Thanx,  I will try these as soon as I can.

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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/25 10:48:39 (permalink)
When writing MIDI orchestration, it's close to impossible for those of us who aren't professional keyboard players to bang out every line by hand. It's well documented that the start/stop times of players don't line up in an orchestra, with some slightly ahead and others further behind, because of several different factors such as instrument, playing style, articulation, distance hearing, etc. This also applies to drummers. Pick up any drum midi pack that hasn't been quantized, examine the start/stop/velocity times, and you may be shocked at just how loose it is, even with the same line being repeated. Beat detective, and aligning instruments to grid, has destroyed the more human aspects of music IMO. It's one of the reasons I was drawn to the underground music scenes. Most mainstream instrumentation is just too fake to have an emotional impact for me.
 
If you know what you're doing using humanize and nudge functions, you can avoid resonance peaks, and have what sounds like a human playing the instrument. So yes, that means that your start/note times do vary by incredibly small degrees (less than 5ms), and velocity variances, combined with expression (usually channel 11), lead to a more human performance. You can use different methods, but sitting down by hand and editing 10,000 midi notes is something I never want to go through again like I did in the past. 
 
I tried using the Humanize CAL in Sonar, but it's far too erratic. I gave up using it. I programmed things for a long time by hand. Sonar could use a good humanize function, and if it hasn't been listed in the features request, then it needs to be. Sonar has a far more advanced MIDI palette than Studio One, but the Studio One humanize functions are excellent. I can program a static grid of notes and chords, then hit one function, and it's already saved me hours of work. There's also a Less Humanize function that will tighten up if the first pass went to far. It sounds great, and it saves me time. It's really the number one function that I wish Sonar would integrate.

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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/25 12:28:51 (permalink)
Resonant Serpent
When writing MIDI orchestration, it's close to impossible for those of us who aren't professional keyboard players to bang out every line by hand. It's well documented that the start/stop times of players don't line up in an orchestra, with some slightly ahead and others further behind, because of several different factors such as instrument, playing style, articulation, distance hearing, etc. This also applies to drummers. Pick up any drum midi pack that hasn't been quantized, examine the start/stop/velocity times, and you may be shocked at just how loose it is, even with the same line being repeated. Beat detective, and aligning instruments to grid, has destroyed the more human aspects of music IMO. It's one of the reasons I was drawn to the underground music scenes. Most mainstream instrumentation is just too fake to have an emotional impact for me.
 
If you know what you're doing using humanize and nudge functions, you can avoid resonance peaks, and have what sounds like a human playing the instrument. So yes, that means that your start/note times do vary by incredibly small degrees (less than 5ms), and velocity variances, combined with expression (usually channel 11), lead to a more human performance. You can use different methods, but sitting down by hand and editing 10,000 midi notes is something I never want to go through again like I did in the past. 
 
I tried using the Humanize CAL in Sonar, but it's far too erratic. I gave up using it. I programmed things for a long time by hand. Sonar could use a good humanize function, and if it hasn't been listed in the features request, then it needs to be. Sonar has a far more advanced MIDI palette than Studio One, but the Studio One humanize functions are excellent. I can program a static grid of notes and chords, then hit one function, and it's already saved me hours of work. There's also a Less Humanize function that will tighten up if the first pass went to far. It sounds great, and it saves me time. It's really the number one function that I wish Sonar would integrate.


Well put (and thanks for defining "frog hair" for me)!!!!
While I can see the point of playing everything in (even banging away without regard to pitch) in some instances I can't imagine the mess I would end up with while orchestrating.
I use PRV like one would use staff view, visually drawing in notes (and even velocities and controllers).
When I do "play" a part in I inevitably have to make adjustments anyway (again hats off to you that don't need to do that).
I finally got around to trying the randomize feature in the CW quantizer and like some suggested it doesn't work the way I need it to.
The Groove Quantizer is closer to what I need but it seems to only make shifts that are later in time as opposed to random ("early" and "late"). 
I would start a FR but judging by this thread it would be a waste of time.
I reckon I'll look for alternatives...has anyone tried the "humanize" plug-in from the OP?
Thanks so much for everyone's suggestions...even Sharke's...I can imagine that could be a very cool way to make a fast run for various instruments.
Thanks again,
Randy

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#26
dilletant
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/25 13:59:14 (permalink)
There are some orchestral parts which you just can't play on keyboard by hand. For example, try to play manually timpani roll with crescendo or harp glissando. I usually step-record timpani roll with small steps like 32nd, then stretch or squeeze the passage to fit into certain amount of beats, then randomize timing and velocities. Only after such manipulations the roll starts to sound more or less realistic. The same with harp gliss.
#27
g_randybrown
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/25 14:07:16 (permalink)
Well I dunno, a tympani roll is probably one of the things I would indeed play in (but would probably have to edit somewhat) being a drummer...to each his own though no?

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konradh
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/25 16:12:37 (permalink)
I use a timpani roll sample.   The traditional Vienna string libraries have trill articulations and they are awesome.  I was very disappointed to find that Vienna's Dimension strings, while superb, require you to program your own trills.  I can't make that sound good and even the examples from Vienna sound bad to me.

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#29
Resonant Serpent
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Re: What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? 2015/05/25 16:19:25 (permalink)
You could drag the MIDI out of Sonar to a folder, humanize in Studio One, then import it back into Sonar. Sonar has a better piano roll, and metering, so I usually prefer Sonar. I just can't live without the humanize function.
 
At this point, I think everyone concedes to needing more than one host to finish out a project. I also use Reaper for varispeed recording, Live for Max for Live/soundscaping, Cubase to open old projects, Notion for old school composing, Reason for electronic drum sandboxing, Audiomulch for on the fly weirdness, etc.
 
Started off on slicing up cassette tapes when I was a kid, so I'm really stoked with the amount of tools we have at our disposal. Rather than whine that something is missing (not that I think the OP was whining), I just find what works.
post edited by Resonant Serpent - 2015/05/25 19:30:00

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