bapu
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:24:34
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batsbrew
when you can stand up in front of a club full of people, and do it live...
Mooch tried that at Buddy Guy's Legends. After his clothes were gathered up and bail was posted we had a pretty good night from then on.
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Jonbouy
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:25:06
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What's the definition of a "musician"? It all depends on the sticks you use.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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bapu
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:26:12
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Jonbouy
What's the definition of a "musician"?
It all depends on the schticks you use.
Vaudvillian'd
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:27:34
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batsbrew
when you can stand up in front of a club full of people, and do it live...
then, you're a musician.
Wouldn't that just be a "standing in a club full of people" *musician*?
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Tap
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:29:20
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A musician is what a musician does ......
MC4 - M-Audio FW410 / Behringer UCA202 - Fender Strat / Jazzmaster / DuoSonic / Washburn / Peavy Foundation M-Audio Radium 49 Roland Juno 106 / JazzChorus / Seymore Duncan Convertible - HP A1230N ( AMD Athalon 3800+ 2G Ram + 200G HD ) http://soundclick.com/cut2thechaise
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:29:25
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I've seen a lot of people do things in front of an audience that I wouldn't call music. In my opinion, when the roadies sound better running through a sound check than the "artist" does during the performance, there's a problem.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:30:29
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That's why I never sing when I am checking a mic.
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bapu
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:31:04
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UbiquitousBubba
In my opinion, when the roadies sound better running through a sound check than the "artist" does during the performance, there's a problem good chance it's a Bapu project.
Flicked.
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julibee
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:48:31
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OKOKOK.... I just got here... What's the difference between the terms "Vocalist" and "Guitarist" or "Violinist"? Surely those people are BOTH musicians?
Dammit.
While I DO play several instruments, and at varying levels of ability, I would CERTAINLY consider myself a musician, even if my keyboard skills are not what I'd like them to be, my sax is languishing in the corner and I can only successfully play 8 chords on my guitars.
Tha being said, I have several friends who are ONLY vocalists, and I would also classify them as musicians. Period.
People who splice together beats... whether their own or someone else's... also qualify. "Musician" is a form of an artist, and it describes the medium.
That being said, there are many ways to differenciate between those that are greats and those that are not. Not every Musician is a GOOD musician.
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Jonbouy
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:53:01
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julibee
OKOKOK.... I just got here... What's the difference between the terms "Vocalist" and "Guitarist" or "Violinist"? Surely those people are BOTH musicians?
Dammit.
While I DO play several instruments, and at varying levels of ability, I would CERTAINLY consider myself a musician, even if my keyboard skills are not what I'd like them to be, my sax is languishing in the corner and I can only successfully play 8 chords on my guitars.
Tha being said, I have several friends who are ONLY vocalists, and I would also classify them as musicians. Period.
People who splice together beats... whether their own or someone else's... also qualify. "Musician" is a form of an artist, and it describes the medium.
That being said, there are many ways to differenciate between those that are greats and those that are not. Not every Musician is a GOOD musician.
What JB said. Plus the fact arrangers, composers, conducters whilst not necessarily doing the do onstage must be considered as musicians too.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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trimph1
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 17:53:21
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Oh oh...define "good" now..... 
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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bapu
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 18:03:09
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Jonbouy
julibee
OKOKOK.... I just got here... What's the difference between the terms "Vocalist" and "Guitarist" or "Violinist"? Surely those people are BOTH musicians?
Dammit.
While I DO play several instruments, and at varying levels of ability, I would CERTAINLY consider myself a musician, even if my keyboard skills are not what I'd like them to be, my sax is languishing in the corner and I can only successfully play 8 chords on my guitars.
Tha being said, I have several friends who are ONLY vocalists, and I would also classify them as musicians. Period.
People who splice together beats... whether their own or someone else's... also qualify. "Musician" is a form of an artist, and it describes the medium.
That being said, there are many ways to differenciate between those that are greats and those that are not. Not every Musician is a GOOD musician.
What JB said.
Plus the fact arrangers, composers, conducters whilst not necessarily doing the do onstage must be considered as musicians too.
Keep talking guys (and gals), there's hope for me yet. Someone has got to stumble onto what I Am.
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Jonbouy
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 18:15:04
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Keep talking guys (and gals), there's hope for me yet. If music is your ian. Then you are truly a musician.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Guitarhacker
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 19:36:11
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julibee
OKOKOK.... I just got here... What's the difference between the terms "Vocalist" and "Guitarist" or "Violinist"? Surely those people are BOTH musicians?
Dammit.
While I DO play several instruments, and at varying levels of ability, I would CERTAINLY consider myself a musician, even if my keyboard skills are not what I'd like them to be, my sax is languishing in the corner and I can only successfully play 8 chords on my guitars.
Tha being said, I have several friends who are ONLY vocalists, and I would also classify them as musicians. Period.
People who splice together beats... whether their own or someone else's... also qualify. "Musician" is a form of an artist, and it describes the medium.
That being said, there are many ways to differenciate between those that are greats and those that are not. Not every Musician is a GOOD musician.
Is one of those chords Am? if so, then you truly are a musician.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Crg
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 20:08:26
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Hard question Beagle. I play the guitar (to some extent), write poetry and lyrics, have written some 2 dozen songs that actually sound like finished songs. I understand music nomenclature and tonal structure (to some extent). But I wouldn't call myself a musician. A musician is an artist who can read, put together a performance (set) from what he's read, do that performance, move on to another act and do it again, etc. , etc., and so on. I'm sure we can all be musicians (to some extent). We all have our own way of putting it together, even some really famous artists don't follow that rule. I guess I'd have to say we are all artists, musicians, poets, songwriters, yes-drummers (they're not all dumbies), and at some point of fluency in the art of making music when you can professionally fill the spot for an instrument when the call comes, you are a musician.
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Crg
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 20:13:27
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bapu
After re-reading this entire thread I've decided to NOT give up on my vuvuzela lessons.
The only lesson you get for the vuvuzela is a knot on the head and an ice pack.
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spacey
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 20:20:41
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Beagle
Michael - I had no intention of twisting your words at all. I was just asking your opinion of a specific example. I have no malice toward you for anything you've said (typed!) even if your definition of a musician is different than mine.
again - this is just a discussion - I'm not trying to do anything to your opinion except asking you to discuss it! or not. if you don't feel like continuing the discussion you could always yell "becan!!!" and point the other way and I'll probably run after it like a stupid mutt who doesn't realize you didn't throw any becan over there! 
since you differentiate between "vocalists" and "musicians," would it matter if a vocalist has a degree in music? if a vocalist could tell you that the chord you're playing is actually an A9 instead of an A2 - does that still make that person a "vocalist" and not a musician?
again - I'm NOT trying to twist your words or make you look foolish. I'm truly interested in your opinion - even tho it may be different than mine, so please don't take it that way. if you don't want to participate, that's fine, too, just ignore my question or tell me to "becan off!"
I don't mind the discussion...I've been all day pouring a big cement slab....I'm stating that to address you mentioning my participation or lack of. It's sure funny to me how something so simple can have complications. I think what you are missing in my words Reece is that it doesn't matter what anybody thinks the definition is for a musician or a vocalist. It just doesn't matter because the determination isn't made by the vocalist or the musician. It is made by other musicians and other vocalist. I may think that I'm an educated well versed guitarist and just a badass musician. (which I dont') It doesn't matter what I think. Musicians that I make music with will determine that to the best of their abilities. They will not have a problem determining that I'm not a vocalist. How they evaluate me as a musician will be how they speak of me to other musicians. When I'm asked if I'm a musician or a guitarist I simply reply that I am a student of the guitar. I will play it and they can make the determination. A vocalist may want to be considered a musician or even called one. We know in real life if you're looking for a vocalist and no matter if you're reading an add or telling someone you know of one you will call them a vocalist. I've never heard one person say, "lets call Joe to sing he's a musician" I've have sure heard many times, let's call Joe he's a great vocalist. That is my reasoning. That is my definition. The musicians working with Joe will be the ones determining if Joe is a vocalist and if Joe is the type of vocalist that will fit into the group. If you or anybody reading this wants to call a vocalist a musician....go for it, I don't care. I bet when you run an add in the paper looking for a band it'll read....vocalist looking for band. Your question about if the vocalist has a degree would I then consider them to be a musician.....well the question is a good indication that you haven't read or understood what I've already stated. You can read the answer in the 4th paragraph of post #24. I can honestly say that for over thirty years I was known as a musician and it I didn't mind. Then music changed, the musicians changed. It wasn't about music anymore....it was about everything else.....I quit playing in public and did not want anybody to know I could even play a guitar. And kept it that way for over 15 years. I can also honestly say without question that the people I have met in my life that I would call a real musician had never played in a band nor had they ever played in public for money. And they could sure old their own or make many of the self proclaimed musicians sell their instrument. And I know for sure, they could care less about what anybody wanted to call them....it's just an instrument they love to play. If you don't understand the first part of that Reece....it's kinda like bikers...you know for many years how folks looked at them. Bad, mean, Hells Angels....etc. Well musicians ( in my world) started looking like lazy ass drug head worthless bums....and all I wanted to do was rock out. And now look at the way some have talked about "musicians" they have seen on the tube.... what a joke. I'm reminded of Lost In Space..."ououou.....they eat their own"... Sorry if my opinion offends anybody....but I know when I will consider somebody a musicain or a vocalist and I'm sure you will do the same. Best regards Reece.
post edited by spacey - 2011/05/26 20:23:22
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julibee
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 20:24:18
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Guitarhacker
julibee
OKOKOK.... I just got here... What's the difference between the terms "Vocalist" and "Guitarist" or "Violinist"? Surely those people are BOTH musicians?
Dammit.
While I DO play several instruments, and at varying levels of ability, I would CERTAINLY consider myself a musician, even if my keyboard skills are not what I'd like them to be, my sax is languishing in the corner and I can only successfully play 8 chords on my guitars.
Tha being said, I have several friends who are ONLY vocalists, and I would also classify them as musicians. Period.
People who splice together beats... whether their own or someone else's... also qualify. "Musician" is a form of an artist, and it describes the medium.
That being said, there are many ways to differenciate between those that are greats and those that are not. Not every Musician is a GOOD musician.
Is one of those chords Am? if so, then you truly are a musician.
YES! I WIN!
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Crg
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 20:29:06
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UbiquitousBubba
I'll jump in without thought of consequences!
I think a musician is someone who makes music. Some instruments require a steeper learning curve than others. Disparaging instrument A because it doesn't require the same skills as instrument B is rather stupid. If it required the same skills, it might as well be the same instrument. Just because some musicians have little appreciation for skills that are dissimlar to their own, does not mean that other people do not deserve the label, "musician".
As far as vocalists are concerned, the human (or canine) voice is a marvelous, expressive instrument that requires a great deal of skill and expertise to utilize to its full potential.
The real question here, it seems to me, is am I such a musical snob that I will denegrate any other muscian who does not have the skills I value for the instruments I prefer? If so, then why should my opinion matter to anyone?
I'm sorry, what were you saying?
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Crg
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 20:50:43
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We all play music, so we're all musicians. Some of us are more proficient-talented-fluent than others, both in certain specialties and instruments and aspects of the art. When someone calls for a Tuba player for the philharmonic and you're a guitar player, it doesn't mean you're not a musician because you don't play the Tuba. The guy leading the band and the producer will let you know if you're the caliber of musician they need. Everybody has their own interpretation of what level of expertise makes you a musician. I've known teachers that put together an entire generation of local musicians. Some of them made the grade to some extent in the commercial world, some developed huge followings, some made beautiful music and works of art that many will never hear. Who can truly say with any clarity," that person is the best musician in the world." Time and attitude are long running things, here today, gone tomorrow, a time less work. We're all still growing.
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Russell.Whaley
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 21:02:29
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musicman100
Ive had female vocalists who wouldn't even roll up a mic cord or help strike gear, saying "that's the musicians job"
so vocalist ˜ musician
My uncle, who played for something on the order of 30 years in the National Symphony told me once that the call board backstage was divided up as "singers" and "musicians." So, I suppose this is a widely-held conclusion. Music and musicians... I've known musicians with a minimum of education who were so gifted they didn't need it. I've also known products of a conservatory education who shouldn't have been allowed to graduate. Music is created or interpreted. Sometimes an interpretation is so unique it creates something new. When it comes to loops and the like... there are lot of people string a bunch of samples together and add a drum track - and it's about as stimulating as watching paint dry. The are also those with a great gift for combining diverse elements and creating something new and exciting - like the really good "remix" guys - who definitely make music. As others are saying, it all comes down to definition. In my mind, those who "make music," regardless of quality, are musicians. Some are competent, some not. Some schooled, some not. Some professional, some amateur. Some are brilliant, others mediocre to horrible. Some will never venture beyond a bedroom studio and a music forum. The common element is that they either create or interpret music.
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Beagle
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 21:37:18
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spacey
Beagle
Michael - I had no intention of twisting your words at all. I was just asking your opinion of a specific example. I have no malice toward you for anything you've said (typed!) even if your definition of a musician is different than mine.
again - this is just a discussion - I'm not trying to do anything to your opinion except asking you to discuss it! or not. if you don't feel like continuing the discussion you could always yell "becan!!!" and point the other way and I'll probably run after it like a stupid mutt who doesn't realize you didn't throw any becan over there!
since you differentiate between "vocalists" and "musicians," would it matter if a vocalist has a degree in music? if a vocalist could tell you that the chord you're playing is actually an A9 instead of an A2 - does that still make that person a "vocalist" and not a musician?
again - I'm NOT trying to twist your words or make you look foolish. I'm truly interested in your opinion - even tho it may be different than mine, so please don't take it that way. if you don't want to participate, that's fine, too, just ignore my question or tell me to "becan off!"
I don't mind the discussion...I've been all day pouring a big cement slab....I'm stating that to address
you mentioning my participation or lack of.
It's sure funny to me how something so simple can have complications.
I think what you are missing in my words Reece is that it doesn't matter what anybody
thinks the definition is for a musician or a vocalist. It just doesn't matter because the
determination isn't made by the vocalist or the musician.
It is made by other musicians and other vocalist.
I may think that I'm an educated well versed guitarist and just a badass musician. (which I dont')
It doesn't matter what I think. Musicians that I make music with will determine that to the
best of their abilities. They will not have a problem determining that I'm not a vocalist.
How they evaluate me as a musician will be how they speak of me to other musicians.
When I'm asked if I'm a musician or a guitarist I simply reply that I am a student of the guitar.
I will play it and they can make the determination.
A vocalist may want to be considered a musician or even called one. We know in real life
if you're looking for a vocalist and no matter if you're reading an add or telling someone you
know of one you will call them a vocalist. I've never heard one person say, "lets call Joe to sing he's a musician"
I've have sure heard many times, let's call Joe he's a great vocalist. That is my reasoning. That is my definition.
The musicians working with Joe will be the ones determining if Joe is a vocalist and if Joe is the type of vocalist
that will fit into the group. If you or anybody reading this wants to call a vocalist a musician....go for it, I don't care.
I bet when you run an add in the paper looking for a band it'll read....vocalist looking for band.
Your question about if the vocalist has a degree would I then consider them to be a musician.....well the
question is a good indication that you haven't read or understood what I've already stated.
You can read the answer in the 4th paragraph of post #24.
I can honestly say that for over thirty years I was known as a musician and it I didn't mind. Then music changed,
the musicians changed. It wasn't about music anymore....it was about everything else.....I quit playing in public and
did not want anybody to know I could even play a guitar. And kept it that way for over 15 years.
I can also honestly say without question that the people I have met in my life that I would call a real musician
had never played in a band nor had they ever played in public for money. And they could sure old their own or make many of the self proclaimed musicians sell their instrument. And I know for sure, they could care less about what
anybody wanted to call them....it's just an instrument they love to play.
If you don't understand the first part of that Reece....it's kinda like bikers...you know for many years how
folks looked at them. Bad, mean, Hells Angels....etc.
Well musicians ( in my world) started looking like lazy ass drug head worthless bums....and all I wanted to do
was rock out. And now look at the way some have talked about "musicians" they have seen on the tube....
what a joke. I'm reminded of Lost In Space..."ououou.....they eat their own"...
Sorry if my opinion offends anybody....but I know when I will consider somebody a musicain or a vocalist and
I'm sure you will do the same.
Best regards Reece.
Well said, Michael! and for the record you're not offending me at all! It doesn't bother me if you think I'm a musician or not! I get the feeling you're making it personal when the subject and the questions I posed weren't meant to be. I guess anyone can make it personal if they wish and I"m sure some do. I am primarily a vocalist. and yes, if I were to place an ad on CL looking for a band I would certainly state "vocalist looking for a band" instead of "musician looking for a band." but if I were a guitarist I wouldn't say "musician looking for a band" either! That would not be the correct message for what others need to know. I have never played piano or keyboards or anything else live in front of any size audience, but I have sang in front of fairly large groups before (1000+). but I still consider myself a "musician" even though most of what I record is only vocals - I still write the words and melody and so I still hold the copyright to my songs regardless of how much of the instrumentation I created in BIAB or whether I've gotten someone else to play parts for me or whatever (although lately I've been doing more and more of my own instrumentation, too, such as piano, keyboards, organ, etc). but if you don't consider me a musician it really does not hurt my feelings at all. like drew said above - it's just a word anyway. Ah, yes, and you're right, I stated a question to you that you had already answered. I thought I was asking something different, but I was wrong about that. my apologies!! but you've clearly stated your opinion in your last post here and your first and I thank you for your input! cheers, my friend!
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craigb
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 21:50:30
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spacey
I don't mind the discussion...I've been all day pouring a big cement slab....
Mafia contract job?
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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spacey
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 22:21:33
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Reece, I have not stated whether I think anybody is a musician or not.
I have only stated the things that I think when dealing with people and the
many things that one may think about when determining if the person is
a musician or vocalist in their eyes. We all do that. There is no form to fill
out or list to check for all of us to use. We will determine if the other is a
musician and/or a vocalist by the "list" we each create.
It is personal. It's very personal when one starts evaluating another.
One has to work with another to fully obtain an opinion about another.
You have criteria that you use to determine and others have theirs.
Although many may choose to state their opinion such has I've read here
many times without ever working with that person. It also happens with vocalist.
How many times have we read here that Taylor Swift isn't a vocalist. ?...just a
marketing tool. Or the marketing of young pretty boys and girls..with comments
such as-they wouldn't be there without their looks or auto tune. GaGa is the last example
I'm up with. Who here has worked with her but with no hesitation ready to evaluate.
That is how some make the determination and form their opinion. Others may not.
Others may have a list of qualifications that a person must meet to warrant being
called a musician or thought of as one.
We may and do very often think, "yeah, they're a musician...just not much of one".
or "you call that singing?".. is Bob Dylan a vocalist or a musician? Do you think for a minute
that we will all agree? We will each make our own determination using the guidelines
we want to use and then we will either be honest about it or just keep it to ourselves.
I have to share this with you Reece....
I was listening to a well known guitar luthier talk about building....he was talking about
how people ( other luthiers) will talk about this wood or that wood and how this thing is
going to sound....then he states...I'm not going there...if you want this instrument to sound good....practice.
Reece if you worked with a guy that could play the hell out of a guitar...you think he is second to none..
BUT...every time you get on stage with him, go to practice, move equipment, tear down equipment
try to read some charts, learn something you never thought you'd be playing....and every single thing he
is not really there - you can't talk to him, you can't reason with him, you can't trust him...on and one...because he's wasted on something all the time it's something....would you consider him a musician?
Well there may be a thousand people that think he is a fantastic guitarist, a hell of a musician....but you may think he's a stinkin' bum.
Well that was just a quick list for an example only.
I don't thinks I have anything else to offer Reece.
I'm tired. Working cement is....work.
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Jonbouy
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 22:38:41
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Reece if you worked with a guy that could play the hell out of a guitar...you think he is second to none.. BUT...every time you get on stage with him, go to practice, move equipment, tear down equipment try to read some charts, learn something you never thought you'd be playing....and every single thing he is not really there - you can't talk to him, you can't reason with him, you can't trust him...on and one...because he's wasted on something all the time it's something....would you consider him a musician? Well there may be a thousand people that think he is a fantastic guitarist, a hell of a musician....but you may think he's a stinkin' bum. A wasted musician is still a musician. Today's stinkin' bum maybe tomorrows miracle of recovery. We all take different developmental paths, some that should be playing end up mixing cement, some that should be mixing cement end up playing, rare or perhaps unknown to get the complete package going perfectly altogether in any individual. I guess we all do the best we can with what we got. I'd say I was a musician rather than a beautician because I know nothing about lip gloss. Whether that means squat or whether I'm any good is neither here nor there it's just a job title to me. If I was the garbage man that played from time to time I'd be quite happy being called the garbage man.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/05/26 22:41:28
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Beagle
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 22:54:10
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I'd have to agree with JB. just because he's an a$$ or a junkie or a bum doesn't mean he's not a musician.
yeah, we've all got our critieria on what a musician is and isn't. that's the whole reason I started the thread, tho. just to discuss it.
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spacey
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 23:07:34
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Reece, you and Jon sure have the right to make your determination....
which is exactly what I've been saying we all do.
I'm glad to hear your opinions. I was that guitarist to a good number of people in 1986.
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yorolpal
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 23:14:53
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musicians play instruments. However, as Eugene Chadborne has so abley shown us, and instrument can be something as esoteric as a very large bra stretched across an amplified garden rake. HTH.
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Jonbouy
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/26 23:18:58
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yorolpal
musicians play instruments. However, as Eugene Chadborne has so abley shown us, and instrument can be something as esoteric as a very large bra stretched across an amplified garden rake. HTH.
Lycra is cheating though, no? Ah I get it now. BIAB = Boobs in a bra. Am I right? Could I study to become a virtuoso in this case? Stramgely, I don't know why but this just brought to mind some of what I consider to be among incredible musicians. The Penguin Cafe Orchestra, one should check them out if they are unfamiliar to you.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/05/26 23:27:58
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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spacey
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Re:What's the definition of a "musician"?
2011/05/27 00:07:01
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The spectrum is so diverse that there is no limitation to a musician's qualifications.
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