What's the officially recommended max number of Take lanes per track and...

...if 30 or so is fine why are people happy with the current vertical zoom behavior?
 
 
Adjusting audio clips' split points in Take lanes has been very exhausting and time-consuming for me, and my frustration finally reached its peak this morning. Since I don't see anyone else suffering from the same issue, I'm now starting to believe that the majority of people here actually don't comp takes in Sonar.
 
Let's say you have 30 (or even 20) or so Take lanes filled with audio clips in a single track, and you want to adjust the comping split points in two of the lower lanes. To accurately adjust the points, you need to zoom in the clips, and you want to do it QUICKLY (i.e. efficiently). Horizontal zoom is easy. Vertical zoom is a PITA.
 
First, the Zoom tool (Z-drag) doesn't work properly in Take lanes, but only a handful of people seem to complain about it. Ironically, I actually love its current incorrect behavior as it allows me to view 40+ lanes at once on my laptop screen. If the Bakers fixes it, I'll probably stop upgrading.
 
What I heavily suffer from is the vertical zoom behavior that I see when I drag the bottom edge of the lane header up/down. If I do it, the clips I want to edit suddenly go out of sight and I have to largely scroll the mouse wheel or use the scroll bar to find them. And I have to do this EVERY time I want to adjust clips' split points. But, surprisingly, no one else seems to find this behavior annoying, since no one has shown his/her support for this request (0 vote so far). Really, what am I missing? How do you quickly zoom in clips in lanes to adjust split points? Share your technique, please.
 
So, Bakers, at least you comp takes on a regular basis, don't you? And you know what I'm talking about, don't you? The comping feature itself is awesome, but Take lanes make it much less awesome. Please consider implementing the feature requested above even if it continues to get no votes, especially if this feature is too difficult to implement.
 
Thanks
 

I have a personal bias that a comped performance should have as many "uncomped" sections as possible. Ideally I wouldn't comp at all, but sometimes a part needs fixes  So, I hardly ever go beyond 8 takes, and 4-6 is more common. If I don't feel I've nailed the part by then, I start over. 
 
The only time I use more Take Lanes is when I'm not comping, like doing massed vocals or whatever. What you're encountering is something I don't encounter, but I can certainly see where doing 30-40 comps could get really unwieldy.

To the OP...
 
1) There is no "official" max because it's designed to allow as many takes as your system can handle processing.
 
2) There have been a slew of complaints about the seemingly illogical way Take Lanes zoom and the max/min height (and I've made many of those complaints).
 
The ideal solution, that I've been saying since X2 (when Lanes were introduced) is to have all the same height adjusting properties that tracks do as well as a quick way to Show/Hide lanes.
 
Now as a dude who creates a LOT of lanes I'd kind of like to address some things for those who don't think a good player should NEED that many lanes. When I see stuff like that posted I do find it a little offensive but I think in many cases the people posting that stuff just don't understand certain workflows or are not really producing hyper technical stuff and/or not exploring creatively as much. That ain't a slag at them either... it's just a different workflow/different style issue.
 
The times I end up with the most lanes is when I am writing. I write a lot of extremely complex riff based stuff that jumps around all over the place, has a lot of tags/lead ins/possible variations. As I work on riffs I'll try out some stuff without recording it then get a starter take down for a section (which may just be a bar or two). Then I'll try some variations at the same spot. Sometimes it's a lot of variations which can end up being a half dozen takes. Then I'll move on to the next section and do the same thing. My tunes generally never have less than ten or so distinct theme riffs and then those riffs tend to all be played differently each time to add extra movement and lead into the next part better. As I do this all I may move parts around, extend things and do all sorts of other crap. I can end up with easily 40 or more take lanes in my "scratch tracks".
 
Then I'll go through and make notes on everything I like and don't like about certain sections/takes. I'll make a few comps of all that to start hammering out the final version of everything.
 
THEN I'll practice the heck out of what I decide to be the best version with any new nuances added in (because now I'm getting comfortable with it all and I've had time to sleep on the composition which helps me weed out the crap). Usually that ends up with me recording much larger sections of the song but not full takes just yet. So I may do a few takes of the first third, a few takes of the second third, etc... So again I end up with a bunch of takes... but not as many. Then I start listening for playing issues (so I can improve the performance) and cobble together a "Pre final".
 
I then usually do it all over again except for the other instruments. For example I will usually start off with simpler drum loops just to write over then once I've got the structure and riffs down I'll record a bunch of live stuff from my padKontrol... and yes, I do comp those MIDI performances... but that's another discussion. Then I'll do the bass and perhaps some harmony guitar or whatever. I use the same process each time.
 
THEN I'll start recording my finals. I've worked with and performed the song so many times at that point it's like I've been rehearsing with a band (which is the one major downside of home recording... you aren't forced to practice over and over and over again even after you know the parts). Even though I know the material like the back of my hand I still record a buttload of takes trying to make it through the whole song without stopping or screwing up (and I write pretty hard/fast crap so yanno... shiz happens that wouldn't be notice on stage but WILL be noticed on a recording).
 
This way I never have to punch in after the fact. I go through and make notes on every lane again writing down anything that sound good or bad with time codes so I know where stuff happens until I widdle it all down to the best of the best of the best. I then create multiple comps based on those notes.
 
Then I go to the other instruments (which I have also repeated that process for) and create notes on everything except this time I compare all the takes to comps I made of the main rhythm guit. So some stuff will work better with Rhyth guit Comp 1 and other stuff Rhyth guit comp 2, etc. I look for tightness, complimentary tone, tuning issues, etc. So having all those extra takes, even if they are all "perfect" on their own makes editing together a super slick end product actually easier then trying to punch in or do wierd timing adjustments or worst of all... not being absolutely happy with the song.
 
Now some might think that maybe I just suck and that's why I have to make so many takes. Well no, usually by phase two of this process the performances are spot on and totally releasable but like I said... it's like writing with a band in the studio vs. going into a studio with a band that has been rehearsing and gigging on a pile of songs for years. The latter is going to sound WAY tighter and better because it's been played so many times in so many ways that all kinks have been worked out. Since I'm not working with a band anymore (unfortunately) this is the next best thing to band practice and touring.
 
Anyway... just trying to show how one might end up with a pile of takes. And I was just talking about the main rhtyhm. Solos is another matter altogether. I end up with MOUNTAINS of takes with that because it's all improv at first and then maybe I'll write around some stuff or just keep improvising other things but with a bit of a loose structure in mind based on some of the pure improv I did.
 
So yeah it would be REALLY freaking awesome to have more logical control over how lanes are displayed and sized. I DESPERATELY want some kind of Hide function and preferably some kind of Take Lane "Manager" similar to the Track Manager that has a Show/Hide notes in the manager or VIA a tooltip for take context (like hover over the take name in the Manager and your notes pop up so you know what it is before "Showing" it). Currently I have to move my comps into a new track to get rid of the clutter without losing the original takes (I also archive the original to save system resources).
 
Once I get some video screen cap software I'll probably make some vids of some of my workflow. Might make more sense that way as opposed to insane ramblings like above. lol
 
Cheers.

The other benefit to my approach is I don't need to specifically record guitar doubles for panning/thickening. I just use an alternate take/comp and drag it into a different track.

Thank you all for the replies! 
 
 

brundlefly
I think I'd go batty trying to comp more than 4-5 takes in any one section. Do you actually have that many takes of the same part, or are you not consolidating takes in different sections to use the same lanes?

 
There are a few sections in a song that are not easy for the singer to sing or require different versions of singing (different tones of voice, etc. for experiment), and those sections end up creating tens of lanes. The following screenshot is from the project I was working on yesterday. As you can see, it looks quite messy and I probably should consolidate lanes before working, but that wouldn’t even be necessary if the vertical zooming was more efficient. Also, in order to adjust split points, the two lanes need to be zoomed in and both visible in the same screen, meaning you need to change the order of lanes and thus end up messing up lanes like I did in the screenshot.
 

 
 

Anderton
Ideally I wouldn't comp at all, but sometimes a part needs fixes  So, I hardly ever go beyond 8 takes, and 4-6 is more common. If I don't feel I've nailed the part by then, I start over. 

 
I agree that this is ideal, but the reality is different for me.  Not everyone can perform well, and it’s great for a songwriter who’s not very good at singing to be able to create a great vocal track himself using the comping feature, without having to hire an excellent singer. Also, if you can create a satisfactory comped result with only 4-6 takes, I would say you can do it in any other DAW (since you just need to record to 4-6 lanes or tracks and simply cut and paste the clips) and don’t need to utilize this great comping feature CW invested their time in developing. When it was introduced in X3, Studio One users said CW copied the feature, and while it may be true, I can definitely say--as someone who have used the comping features of both DAWs--that Sonar’s comping capability is superior to that of S1, and is probably the best among all DAWs. What other DAW allows you to quickly audition takes in that particular section (split portions of the clips) by simply clicking the lower half of the clips? Comping in Sonar is really awesome, but when it comes to adjusting split points, it’s very inefficient due to the current vertical zoom behavior.
 
 

FreeFlyBertl
... and it's not just extremely boring but it wears your hearing out quickly because unless you know upfront what you want (and thus just look for it in the takes) you'll be comparing the same thing over and over again and not know whether you really got the best ...

Worst case scenario is recording yourself - because usually you are never satisfied - and that's then the 30+ take lanes situation. Some advice would be to get somebody to either help you in the recording process with quality feedback on what is good/authentic (sort of taking over the producer role) or let someone else do the take selection/comping (taking over the mixers role) ... trying the musician = producer = mixer approach is the most difficult and there are only few people on this planet who could do this (and even they don't) ...

 
Oh yes, it’s extremely boring, but believe me, after hours of auditioning and comping the takes I sung myself and adjusting split points, I was able to produce a great vocal track that I would never have been able to by only comping 4-6 takes and fixing occasional parts. I’m only wishing if I could reduce the time it took to adjust split points.
 
 

mettelus
I have not specifically tested this, but zooming requires a reference point (anchor), and is good practice to select the anchor and then zoom. Horizontally is easy, since the now time is the center. Are you saying that if you select a chosen center take and zoom that it doesn't stay centered?

 
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. It doesn’t stay centered. Inconvenient, isn’t it?
 
 

Beepster
2) There have been a slew of complaints about the seemingly illogical way Take Lanes zoom and the max/min height (and I've made many of those complaints).

 
So, I guess they either gave up and switched to some other DAW or don’t bother checking the F&I forum section.
 
 

Beepster
The ideal solution, that I've been saying since X2 (when Lanes were introduced) is to have all the same height adjusting properties that tracks do as well as a quick way to Show/Hide lanes.

 
I posted a similar request here, but didn’t receive many votes (only a handful, as I said).
 
 

Beepster
Now as a dude who creates a LOT of lanes I'd kind of like to address some things for those who don't think a good player should NEED that many lanes. When I see stuff like that posted I do find it a little offensive but I think in many cases the people posting that stuff just don't understand certain workflows or are not really producing hyper technical stuff and/or not exploring creatively as much. That ain't a slag at them either... it's just a different workflow/different style issue.

 
I think I strongly agree, Beepster.
 
 

Keni
as I don't currently have a need to perform these songs live... <sigh>...

 
Me, too... <sigh>...
 

Anyway, votes are still welcome. 

The only thing I don't get in your approach is how there are 30 takes that are worthwhile in such a short section. I can easily see doing a part 30 times with a less than great singer. But surely you don't end up with 30 takes that are worth keeping? There must be twenty you can delete right away?

I completely agree with your point about zooming and vertical scrolling by the way. I would really like some "temporary split screen" to line up tracks without actually moving them. Kinda like what VocalSync does.

Anderton
 
If you're referring to my post, you're missing an important qualifier: "So, I hardly ever go beyond 8 takes, and 4-6 is more common. If I don't feel I've nailed the part by then, I start over." It may require a lot more takes overall, but remember I've done a lot of production and part of that is knowing when something's not working with an artist. By knowing when something isn't working and editing as I go along, there are fewer tracks to evaluate and then speed comping becomes insanely fast.
 
Another reason for not doing too many takes at a time is I'd rather have a part with a few flaws that "tells a story" than worry too much about details. 
 
As to writing, that's a whole other topic...but I do a lot of getting parts down fast to write the song without being concerned if the sound is right, the edits are great, etc. After the song is done, then I'll go back and replace the parts with ones that are more thought out...not unlike what you do, in a way.

Although your post got me thinking about it I was more referring to certain folks who are much less... erm... diplomatic than you were (essentially I'm talking about smarmy ding dongs who try to make it into a superiority thing... which you didn't).
 
As for the other thoughts... I'll scrap/delete anything I know isn't going to work immediately as I track (I've got the R - Spacebar - Ctrl + Z routine so ingrained in my muscle memory I've somehow gotten to the point where I catch myself reaching out and doing it without even opening my eyes even though my hands are on the guit). But if something may be useable or has an "interesting" mistake it stays for later inspection.
 
Hanging on to older stuff even if I think I'm getting better takes down has actually ended up garnering better results because every so often I'll go back to the very first takes and there will be a gem amongst them that I prefer (usually because of a looser feel or there was a part I had moved away from but end up liking it again).
 
Well I'm sure you have experienced all that. Point is I'm kind of a clip pack rat. I don't like getting rid of anything unless it truly is unuseable garbage. I can always go back and delete that stuff once the tune is done... then again I may want to do an alt version later on or maybe if someone wants to use the song for something I can offer up those other tracks for them to play with/choose from.
 
This of course hogs up my drive space but it's easy/cheap enough to move it off the system.