What's Counterpoint?

What's Counterpoint?

Quite literally, two or more melodies set against each other.

There are specific principles and "guidelines" (read: breakable rules) associated with it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint, mostly to preserve independence of each part.

Some people, including big-name producers, ignore it entirely, while others (present company included) believes that at the very least the bass line and the melody should have at least a semblance of a contrapuntal relationship, with good voice leading among other parts.

look up: Gradus ad Parnassum

Literally "point against point." It is the idea of using independent lines instead of block chords to create harmonies. There is no one style, but one thing is certain, every great composer in every age was a master of it.

ORIGINAL: John

The best examples are Bach's works. It ain't easy either to do it right but when it is done right it rocks.

I won't argue that, but I confess I'm partial to Mozart's works to illustrate counterpoint. And, yes, it ROCKS, baby!

Counterpoint is when you play the music at the wrong time and it sounds good. Harmony, on the other hand, is when you play the wrong note and it sounds good.

Sorry - I couldn't resist.

-Al

Strictly speaking, counterpoint is the writing a two or more musical lines that are each, alone, musically interesting, and which also combine in a pleasing way (with "pleasing" being subjective.)

Canons are a very familiar form of counterpoint -- "Row, row, row yor boat" is a canon when sung by a group of people, each entering one after another. Your ear can follow any individual voice, or listen to the overall effect of the voices singing the same tune but at different times.

Counterpoint is virtually non-existent in popular music. It is virtually constant in jazz.

"Counterpoint" can be distinguished from voice-leading or part-writing, which can simply mean moving from one chord to another in an appropriate way. Obviously this is a matter of degree, not absolutes.

ORIGINAL: BeachBum

Ok, lets talk pop music?

Is counterpoint used in radio pop music?

Is counterpoint two vocal melodies at the same time, two singers singing a different vocal melody? Or is the harmonizing?

Or is counter point only between instrument. Like the guitar plaing E G B E G B, and the bass playing E E E E E E E.

I think like what one poster said earlier,counterpoint is for sure present in pop music.Every time there are at least two,three elements in the mix you're sort of dabbling in counterpoint.If the bass is playing root notes for example - C,F,G and C,and the vocal is singing in thirds E,A,D,E this is counterpoint -two independant melodies.Simple counterpoint,but its still there !
Your example of the bass playing E,and then the guitar playing arpegs is a good one.In counterpoint this is called Oblique motion (one part remains on one note,whilst the other moves).This is when the parts are said to have maximum independence,and really this is the whole point of counterpoint - to have two or more melodies which are independant but at the same time still make towards a cohersive whole.
As far as two vocal lines are concerned I guess the simplist form of counterpoint might be a main vocal and backing vocals.
EG The main vocal is singing 'I wanna be....' and the backing vocals might take another melody on 'u wanna be'.The idea in counterpoint is that both the main vocal and backing have sufficient interest on there own.Ie you could mute either track,and still the parts would stand in the mix.I think the main differance between counterpoint as used now,compared to the classics,is in the mix and the expectations of the listener.Sure we can have a vocal,a lead instrument and the bass all doing solos at the same time...but its very rare.What tends to happen is that the vocals will take centre stage for a while,and then another instrument will take its place when the vox is resting.Whilst there might be counterpoint going on between three differant elements the listener (in pop) will always have solid cues by the producer as to which element should be the most present at that time.
Kev

I didn't mean to be provocative. How much counterpoint a piece has isn't a measure of its quality (unless it is submitted in response to an assignment to write a fugue.)

Classical music (my arena) has tended to move between periods where contrapuntal complexity is often desired (Bach or Ockeghem) and periods where it is often avoided (Monteverdi, Mozart). Ideal counterpoint aims at each line having equal melodic value. It is not the same thing as good voice-leading, e.g. knowing how to write a bass line so it compliments a melody.

Most popular music, and most rock, frankly has very little to do with either harmony or counterpoint. Measured by those two criteria, it's extremely primitive. But harmony and counterpoint aren't where the action is in most pop and rock.

ORIGINAL: TomN

Can anyone post some audio clip examples? That would be cool.

This would be the best bet ! .I'll see if I can come up with owt this weekend.
Kev

ORIGINAL: TomN

Can anyone post some audio clip examples? That would be cool.

Ok Heres a short clip.In the intro theres a piano playing bass,and a wind instrument playing the melody.Notice the wind instrument begins half way through the bar,and rarely plays at the same time as the piano.Each part is written to be independant,and to retain its individuality as much as possible.The technique I've used is taken from Fux http://www.ars-nova.com/cpmanual/fundamentals.htm Worth checking out if you'd like to learn how to start using counterpoint !
The example moves into a section with Piano,guitar,VOX,and again the wind.Please notice again,how each part is seperated and trys to move towards independance as much as possible.The mix isn't brilliant I'm afraid,but it should give you a better idea hopefully of what counterpoint is about.
Please follow the link below,and click on 'counterpoint' example.
Kev

ORIGINAL: TomN

Yeah I can hear that. It's like two different parts woven together. Steve Morse actually does this really well with many of his songs.

I could be way off, but I seem to remember learning something about Counterpoint that was a little different (or maybe the same). It was that if the instrument playing the higher melody line ascended the "countering" lower freq. instrument would Descend and vice versa. So they would be moving in opposite directions. Creating what would look like two out of phase sine waves if you looked that actual sheet music andconnected the dots (notes). It's like the High Notes and the Low Notes are either moving towards each other or away from each other, and everything else is sort of modulating inbetween (For the RF Buffs).

Steve Morse has a song that's actually called "Point CounterPoint". I'll see if I can dig up a way to post a sample of it. Actually here's a perfect video of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8giiLqabBuE

Hi Tom,
Yep what you are descibing is contrary motion - two parts moving in opposite directions.
The example you've posted is much clearer than mine...it reminded me a lot of Bach !! What I tried to do was post an example close to how it might be used in todays production.I did those exercises for about a year and a half,and ever since I've been trying to mould the technique into my composition with it sounding like an exercise lol.In that sense its not pure counterpoint...but I hope it gives some idea of how its princimples might be used.
Thanks for the link by the way ! I enjoyed the piece.
Kev