AdamGrossmanLG
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When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
Hello Everyone,
I thought I would start a little topic on when do you print your softsynths to audio and what do you do with the original MIDI/synths?
I am usually very reluctant to bounce to audio because I am afraid I am going to want to change the patch, change the notes, etc... Yes I can save the patch and original MIDI, but I guess I just never feel done.
Was wondering - when do you guys print your MIDI to audio? Also, do you keep the original synth/midi in the track but just archived or just delete them completely?
Just trying to get some ideas!
Thank You!
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AT
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/01 21:47:05
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Freezing synths is also good so you have a copy of the track, the actual sound. Just in case your synths don't work - the audio is still there.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/01 21:54:12
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AT
Freezing synths is also good so you have a copy of the track, the actual sound. Just in case your synths don't work - the audio is still there.
you know i got into a habit of not doing that. Ive had a few synths over the years where after I unfroze the track, the preset reset and I could never get the same sound again. This was many years ago though, maybe I should try again :)
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sharke
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/02 00:43:46
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☄ Helpfulby arlen2133 2016/09/01 19:16:53
It's simple. As soon as you feel good about the part (i.e. you're listening to it on loop and enjoying it) then print it. If you don't, there's always the chance that your fiddling will destroy exactly what it is that makes you feel good about it. I did this countless times before getting into the habit. At some point in the musical process you have to draw a line under things and put a lid on them. Doesn't matter if you're a home hobbyist or a platinum selling superstar in a multi million dollar studio recording the next hit.
Take any of your favorite songs by any of your favorite bands. Every single part in those songs have at some point have had a line drawn under them, whether they're MIDI driven synths or live performances selected at the end of a succession of multiple takes. Take one of Dave Gilmour's classic guitar solos. They may now sound like classic, iconic performances that can't be improved upon, but I'm willing to bet that at some point before the album was mixed he thought "maybe I could have played them better if I'd done a few more takes." But he didn't, he put a lid on them and they went on to become classics.
My usual routine is to print the track to audio with Sonar's synth recording capability, hide the MIDI track, set the audio track's input to "none" to disconnect it from the synth, then turn the synth off in the synth rack. If at some point during the mixing process you really start to think that the part is problematic, you can always unhide the MIDI track, turn the synth back on and reconnect the audio track to the synth. But because that's anything but a one-click process, you'll probably only do it if it's really necessary. There's no need to delete the synth, just turn it off in the rack.
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dcumpian
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/02 08:17:12
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I go one step further than Sharke, I remove the synth completely. The midi track is archived, and the synth's settings are saved in the project folder as a preset, in case I ever need to recall it. Honestly, I believe it is best to print all tracks and effects before you are completely done with a project. That way you can save a version of the project with no plugins in case you ever need to open it years down the road and the current plugins either don't work or no longer exist.
Regards,
Dan
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Guitarhacker
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/02 08:18:45
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In a small project, almost never.
Back in the day, when I had a system with limited resources, I would render the audio to wave and reuse the synth with a new sample for a different track. I would keep the midi track and hide it in the event that I wanted to change something with that track at some future point.
Midi tracks take up very little hard drive space so keeping them is not a big deal. Just keep notes somewhere regarding what synth and sample/patch was used.
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bitflipper
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/02 10:58:12
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☄ Helpfulby Mitch_I 2016/08/02 11:21:58
When possible, I never bounce soft synth tracks. That's just OCD, though. The thought that I might want to make a last-minute tweak keeps me from commitment.
In the case of drum tracks, I do make changes right up to the end because they're fake drums I'm trying to make sound more realistic. Real drummers interact with and support the other instruments. You don't want a metronome drone for a drum track, even if that's what you initially started out with. I add ghost notes, accents, advances and short fills in places where the mix needs them, and can't know where those places are until late in the mix.
There is a downside to this, however. One obvious problem is you might exhaust your RAM and CPU and have no choice but to freeze some synths. But I ran into a less-foreseeable problem when I moved from a 32-bit system to a 64-bit system and there were a couple synths and effects that weren't compatible. I lost the ability to modify a few projects as a result. Fortunately, my old computer had been underpowered so most tracks had been frozen out of necessity. Losing synths and effects is a real possibility due to draconian licensing schemes that constantly threaten to disable themselves, so freezing them is insurance against that.
Another possibility is that a synth or sample library doesn't sound the same after freezing. It's not common but it does happen. There have been times when I didn't realize the problem, until I un-froze a synth for editing only to find that I could not get back to its previous sound. Sample libraries can be prone to this, if you've installed an update or modified an .nki since the original library was frozen.
So to summarize: freezing optimizes computer resources and can be good insurance. But it does restrict your creative freedom. Security versus freedom, it's an age-old balancing act.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Midiboy
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/03 08:24:31
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I almost never freeze synth tracks...I have 32gb of RAM and 12 cores. I have no reason to freeze them. Freezing them only takes up MORE HD space. The only time I really do freeze them is for effects. If I want to completely manipulate the sound by doing random stutters, add reverse reverb, or do strange effects not possible via MIDI or other VSTs I have.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/03 10:01:07
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CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/03 11:06:51
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I used to bounce all at end of tracking i.e. start of the true mixing stage - now I use synth record (as it allows to bounce all in one go rather than waiting forever for a sequential freeze) and more often I record the synth audio while tracking and only record MIDI for backup - which helps in the decision process because if you like the audio track and it fits the tune why bother fiddling any more with it?
I always backup the MIDI tracks and try to save the synth settings (but mostly to have templates for starting other tunes because IMHO you can never be sure if you ever get exactly the same sound back later, all vendors claim to be backward compatible but all of them provide regular updates adding fixes and features, so if you remix years later you can't be sure it'll sound the same)
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sharke
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/03 16:27:27
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I use the synth recording function as well but you have to be aware that the larger your buffer size, the more the timing will be off. If for example I record a straight four to the floor kick drum from Geist with my buffer size at 256k, the resulting waveform is clearly a little off the beat when zoomed in. If I set them to 96k it's right on the mark. I actually spoke to Noel in relation to this because I thought I was going mad, and he told me that you should use a smaller buffer size when recording synths.
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Kev999
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/03 17:48:36
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SilverBlueMedallion
...when do you guys print your MIDI to audio? Also, do you keep the original synth/midi in the track but just archived or just delete them completely?...
I bounce or export individual instruments for 3 reasons: - Although I don't often max out CPU or RAM, I do have a low limit on the total amount of UAD plugins that can be active within a project at any one time. Hence the need for the occasional bounce.
- If an instrument is deemed "ready", I don't want to be distracted by having the option of messing with it further.
- A program with fewer softsynths and effects will launch quicker.
The way I normally do it is as follows. For example, if I want to print the piano softsynth, I start by saving a a copy of the project in the same folder under a name like <original-name>_PIANO and export the piano as a 24-bit WAV. Then I go back to the original project, delete the piano softsynth and import the WAV. If I later decide that I am not happy with the piano sound after all, I can easily go to the <>_PIANO project and alter it and re-export/import.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/06 17:03:05
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I use external hardware instruments (as well as VST's) and there the tendency can be to easily leave them alone and not print to audio even right up to the mix but overall I think it is best however to print any external midi parts though.
The idea that you may always be wanting to change part is silly in reality. At some point you have to let the music alone and just mix it anyway. Opening up midi parts later on say a year later and just having midi tracks present with no information as to what instruments and what sounds were used can also be frustrating. Even if it is just an idea for example. If you do this though it is best to include as much information as you can ie what instrument and what patch. Also try printing just a stereo mix of a bunch of hardware synths too. It will at least give you a mix and you can hear what the sounds are too.
Don't agree with bitflipper about printed audio not sounding the same. I am just not hearing that ever. If I print an external synth it sounds excellent and I cannot tell any difference. As far as printing a VST instruments I am pretty well hearing the same thing too. (certainly in Studio One that is)
What can happen with some VST instruments is there may be variations each time you print a part especially off line or fast. That is what Dave may be hearing, not a sound quality difference. In those cases it may be best to print these parts in real time which you can now do in Sonar easily. Some VST's just behave better at real time. If you really like what a VST does in real time then try printing it that way. It does not take that long.
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Danny Danzi
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/10 00:24:38
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I haven't bounced a synth down in forever. I always use them in real time.
However, and maybe one of you guys that knows better than I can comment here....
One thing I have noticed is, some of my older projects where I bounced the synths, they literally had a bigger sound size. Meaning, the bigness of the actual sound was like....well, huge. I don't seem to get that these days unless I tweak for "big". Is there something that happens to the sound once we bounce it compared to if we don't?
I don't know how it can be possible to have a larger sound size by bouncing....but I know every song where I did this compared to songs where I did not. Anyone know anything about this? Maybe I should start bouncing again. LOL!
But I seriously don't have a need to bounce with the power I have in my machines today.
-Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Jeff Evans
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/10 01:49:21
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That is interesting Danny for sure. Maybe they are just bouncing a little louder and could it be a volume change you are hearing. The main thing is to match any live synth levels to the bounced level.
Another thing to watch is some software may bounce a virtual instrument with some included effects inserted on that same channel. Then the bounced audio with effects printed in could be running through the same channel adding in the effects the second time around. I have seen that happen in some programs.
With Studio One there is a transform to audio mode that includes effects but brings the new bounced audio in onto a fresh track with no effects so they playback the same. The original instrument is then muted so you dont hear both, only the bounced audio.
I am hearing the opposite in terms of bouncing. I am hearing virtually an exact replica of either a hardware synth in my case or a virtual instrument being bounced. I bounce synths at the ref rms level in my case and then reset the fader on the bounce playback channel for the required balance in the mix.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Slugbaby
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/10 08:55:39
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I'll print synths to audio right before I export each track as a WAV and call my project "closed."
Then, i give the WAVs to my engineer/producer who helps me mix and master the track. He and his studio (Soundhouse Studios, Toronto) can work the magic from there. If i need to go back and reprogram the synth, or "fix" something, I simply open the project back up in Sonar and tweak. Then re-export to Audio, and send him the updated track.
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batsbrew
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/12 11:01:13
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the good thing about either bouncing down the synths to print,
or freezing in place,
is that you free up the CPU to a degree, and, you have committed the 'sound' of the synth off line, which means the system takes as much time as it needs, to create the audio, and not DURING a bouncedown.
i guess i'm just old school that way, but i always want to deal with audio,
versus midi data creating audio on the fly.
typically, if i have keys in synth, or i'm working with Superior Drummer,
i leave it midi throughout the 'writing' and arranging stage,
but once i know i like my sounds, and have finished arrangements, i commit.
it makes me more cognizant of making decisions, and moving on.
leaving it in midi, means you can tweak it forever.
until you die.
LOL
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Danny Danzi
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/12 12:50:43
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batsbrew
leaving it in midi, means you can tweak it forever.
until you die.
LOL
*Raises hand from coffin* guilty as charged! Lol!
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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bapu
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/12 15:30:28
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bitflipper
Another possibility is that a synth or sample library doesn't sound the same after freezing. It's not common but it does happen. There have been times when I didn't realize the problem, until I un-froze a synth for editing only to find that I could not get back to its previous sound. Sample libraries can be prone to this, if you've installed an update or modified an .nki since the original library was frozen.
Especially when you consider round robins. What you freeze may not be what plays the next time it's unfrozen. Then again that could be tru from play to to export, right?
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sharke
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/27 12:57:53
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Danny Danzi
I haven't bounced a synth down in forever. I always use them in real time.
However, and maybe one of you guys that knows better than I can comment here....
One thing I have noticed is, some of my older projects where I bounced the synths, they literally had a bigger sound size. Meaning, the bigness of the actual sound was like....well, huge. I don't seem to get that these days unless I tweak for "big". Is there something that happens to the sound once we bounce it compared to if we don't?
I don't know how it can be possible to have a larger sound size by bouncing....but I know every song where I did this compared to songs where I did not. Anyone know anything about this? Maybe I should start bouncing again. LOL!
But I seriously don't have a need to bounce with the power I have in my machines today.
-Danny
Could this be that when you play back the bounced track, you still have the output from the synth coming through the track as well as the bounced audio? Because this sometimes catches me unawares when I record synths. When I'm done recording it I always play it back to check that it sounds OK. And sometimes I forget to set the input of the track to "none" in order to stop the synth output coming through as well. Result - HUGE sounding synth track!
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Cookie Jarvis
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/27 22:28:01
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Here's how I handle my projects-
First of all I don't mix in Sonar so the only effects I use are guitar related( Amplitube, GTR, PodFarm, etc.).
When I have finished the recording phase I save as is. Next I bounce down all softsynths, then freeze the synths, and finally archive them. Now I save again as "Project archive". The last step I do is to delete the archived synths and their associated tracks and save again as "Project audio only". Now I'm ready for any eventuality. I burn my projects to DVD and delete from the computer...it's a lot easier to pop a DVD in than to try and read from a failed HD ;)
Bill
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Kev999
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/08/27 22:55:29
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ADDENDUM TO MY EARLIER POST
A couple more reasons to print:
4. You may wish to open the project in another rig in which the relevant plugins are not present.
5. Several years from now, after a few successive upgrades, some of the plugins that you currently rely on will no longer work in their current form. I have learned this the hard way.
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/09/01 06:50:28
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These days I usually only convert softsynth to audio when I need to do some kind of manipulation on the track that can only be done in audio such as reverse masking or slicing.
Side question. When I do convert synth to audio, I usually just freeze the track and copy the resulting wav to a fresh audio track. That method always seemed to work perfectly for me. But from what I'm reading here, some folks actually bounce down to audio by recording during playback in real time. Is there an advantage to doing it that way?
Seems to me that by recording in real time you're putting your audio through a d/a conversion and then an a/d conversion. Which could open you up to timing issues as well as sonic issues depending on the quality of the converters you're using. I could see doing that if you were using some kind of high end outboard processing on the track. But otherwise I'm not seeing any advantage to flying the audio out of the box and then right back into the box. What am I missing?
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sharke
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/09/01 10:35:06
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JohanSebatianGremlin
These days I usually only convert softsynth to audio when I need to do some kind of manipulation on the track that can only be done in audio such as reverse masking or slicing.
Side question. When I do convert synth to audio, I usually just freeze the track and copy the resulting wav to a fresh audio track. That method always seemed to work perfectly for me. But from what I'm reading here, some folks actually bounce down to audio by recording during playback in real time. Is there an advantage to doing it that way?
Seems to me that by recording in real time you're putting your audio through a d/a conversion and then an a/d conversion. Which could open you up to timing issues as well as sonic issues depending on the quality of the converters you're using. I could see doing that if you were using some kind of high end outboard processing on the track. But otherwise I'm not seeing any advantage to flying the audio out of the box and then right back into the box. What am I missing?
I don't think there are any D/A conversion issues by recording softsynths in real time, not with Sonar's recent synth recording functionality (perhaps you missed that announcement? You can now record a soft synth directly in Sonar). It's no different to freezing the track except that it's happening in real time so that you can do things like manipulate the synth's controls on the fly. The audio isn't going anywhere near your converters during the recording, it's all in the box. Unless you're talking about external hardware synths, but even in that case, the conversion is going to have to happen sooner or later, no?
post edited by sharke - 2016/09/01 10:56:21
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/09/01 11:07:13
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Hmm.... So is there a trick to setting up the routing to capture the synth audio before it hits the converters?
The only way I'd know to do it would be to route the output of the synth to my audio I/O and then patch that output to a set of aux inputs and route to a fresh audio track. Is there some other way to do it that doesn't involve the I/O box?
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notscruffy2
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/09/01 18:52:53
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Danny
I freeze solely to keep track of what I thought was done. The next morning I thaw out those that need fixin.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/09/02 04:15:53
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JohanSebatianGremlin
These days I usually only convert softsynth to audio when I need to do some kind of manipulation on the track that can only be done in audio such as reverse masking or slicing.
Side question. When I do convert synth to audio, I usually just freeze the track and copy the resulting wav to a fresh audio track. That method always seemed to work perfectly for me. But from what I'm reading here, some folks actually bounce down to audio by recording during playback in real time. Is there an advantage to doing it that way?
Seems to me that by recording in real time you're putting your audio through a d/a conversion and then an a/d conversion. Which could open you up to timing issues as well as sonic issues depending on the quality of the converters you're using. I could see doing that if you were using some kind of high end outboard processing on the track. But otherwise I'm not seeing any advantage to flying the audio out of the box and then right back into the box. What am I missing?
There is definitely no DA / AD conversion involved for VSTi. It's as simple has arming synth output tracks for record and hitting the record button. Everything else is handled by Sonar i.e. the signal never goes outside Sonar. It is a major time saver compared to the sequentially executed freezing synths, which e.g. for multi-out drum VSTi can take much longer than just one song playback ... plus you can print your external synths at the same time ... while listening closely on headphone check for glitches, crackles, ... Another possible advantage: unfreeze removes your WAV file (unless you manually copied it somewhere else) i.e. if after changing your synth settings, you don't have the previous one to compare to / comp from ... while with synth recording you keep the previous "takes" already properly grouped (if you have that setting enabled) ...
GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER +++ Visit the Rehab +++ DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600 Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture) Control-Surface: VS-700C VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really)
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sharke
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/09/02 10:40:45
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JohanSebatianGremlin
Hmm.... So is there a trick to setting up the routing to capture the synth audio before it hits the converters?
The only way I'd know to do it would be to route the output of the synth to my audio I/O and then patch that output to a set of aux inputs and route to a fresh audio track. Is there some other way to do it that doesn't involve the I/O box?
With a soft synth you can literally just set the input of an audio track to the synth's output, arm the track and hit record. Synth recording was added to Sonar about a year ago in response to years of demands. It doesn't go anywhere near your converters.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/09/02 10:45:15
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Rob[atSound-Rehab]
It is a major time saver compared to the sequentially executed freezing synths, which e.g. for multi-out drum VSTi can take much longer than just one song playback ... plus you can print your external synths at the same time ... while listening closely on headphone check for glitches, crackles
The thing is, if you have your buffer set low enough (which I believe you should do when synth recording otherwise the resulting track is out by a few samples - I've seen this with 100% quantized kicks from a drum synth) then you might hear crackles, but these aren't printed. When recording soft synths I set my buffer to 96, turn all other synths off and bypass all FX. Sometimes I will hear the odd pop and crackle whilst recording, but I don't hear these when I listen back to the track.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: When To Print Softsynths To Audio?
2016/09/02 19:56:16
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sharke
Synth recording was added to Sonar about a year ago in response to years of demands.
Ok so I'm not crazy. Until a few months ago I was on version 8.something-or-other. Seems to me at that time, the only way to capture VST synth audio was to involve the I/O box, which is why using the freeze function is my goto.
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