When do you add reverb?

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optimus
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2012/03/02 06:42:40 (permalink)

When do you add reverb?

I am relatively new to audio recording and need to know when is reverb added to the track. For instance, when recording a vocal track, is reverb added to the track when mixing, or is left until every thing is mixed down to stereo, and then applied over the entire mix.
 
I have tried both methods and am not satisfied with either. I have tried all the reverbs in the Cakewalk suites but can't seem to get that, for want of a better description, airyness and space I hear on records. I can get an illusion of the vocal being up close or more distant but not the air.
 
Is there a methodology or procedure to adding reverb and what am I doing wrong. How do the experts do it?
 
Thanks for your help. 
#1

16 Replies Related Threads

    ChuckC
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 08:21:03 (permalink)
    Ok I will try to help ya here Optimus.  Welcome to the forum!

       My guess is that (like many people starting out) you tend to add too much reverb and that can make them sound like they are a half a mile down the canyon singing.  I did it too.     I would suggest setting up a bus and put the reverb on the bus set to 100% wet, then put a send from your track to that bus and mix to taste.  I can say that unless your going for a really dramatic verb effect in most cases you don't use much.  play the whole song turn the verb up til you notice it, then back it off a hair.   now if you play the song the verb won't jump out at you but if you muted the verb bus you would notice something missing.    
         As to the "air" you are looking for you will probably find that using an EQ.  try adding a high shelf to your vocal and bring it up until it sounds crisp and airy, again don't over do it because this can bring out some issues with your "Ssssss" sounds getting annoying (which you can fix with a Desser).  
    I hope that helps.

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    #2
    ohgrant
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 08:26:01 (permalink)
    I can tell you when I started, reverb was one of those effects that I totally failed at. The result was more mud. Now during the tracking and mixing phase of a project I use reverb much more sparingly, mostly just a few convolution reverb instances like a cabinet impulse for the guitars or one of the drum impulses for the drums. For vocals I get more mileage from delay than reverb.

    Me
     
    #3
    optimus
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 09:10:51 (permalink)
    " I would suggest setting up a bus and put the reverb on the bus set to 100% wet, then put a send from your track to that bus and mix to taste."
     
    Thanks for the suggestion ChuckC, but this highlights another of my inadequacies. I have tried using busses but nothing seems to happen. Obviously I'm missing something crucial here. I don't seem to get my head around the idea. I usually dump the effects into the effect bin of the relevent track, then
    bounce the lot down to one stereo track.
     
    So some help here would also be appreciated I guess. 
     
    Ohgrant, I'm afraid you're way ahead of me here. What is convolution reverb and cabinet impulses.
    #4
    jsaras
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 09:18:29 (permalink)
    None of the Cakewalk reverbs compare to Valhalla Room. It's the best $50 I've spent in a long time. Try the demo and be prepared to part with your money.

    http://www.audiorecordingandservices.com ("one minute free" mastering)

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    #5
    ChuckC
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 09:44:00 (permalink)
    Ok, we are heading back to mixing 101... (it would help to know what version of sonar you are using)

      Alright well let's say you were mixing a song with 8 channels of drum tracks, 4 guitar tracks, a bass and 3 vocal tracks.   If you only have tracks and one master bus  and towards the end of the mix you find the drums are a little too low, you now have to raise equally 8 drum faders.  Are ya with me so far?

    go into mixing console view, on the right side of the master fader right click and add a stereo bus, name it "drums" and set the output of the bus to master.  Now at the bottom of each drum track change the output to go to "drums" instead of master.  (you need to do this when the music is stopped not playing).   Now you can raise and lower the drums as a whole instrument or add effects to them as a whole!  You can do this again for guitars, vocals, etc.          
       Now, add a bus called verb and set it's output to master, add your instance of reverb to it's FX bin.   then you can go to your vocal tracks (or vocal bus) and (in mix console view) right click and add send, assign the send to go to the verb bus.  kinda works like an aux output.  I generally turn the "post" off so that I am sending the singal pre-fader rather than post fader.  If you don't do that and move the fader of that bus/track it will effect how much signal you are sending to the verb bus which can screw you up sometimes and levels go haywire.

       So in summary,  All buses do is make mixing a little easier and allows for the processing of multiple tracks together (like adding compression to all of the guitars as a whole rather than as individuals at the track level) or sending multiple instruments to the same reverb to put them in the same "sonic space". 

    So right now lets say you have those same 16 tracks all going to the master bus.

    We want to set up so that you have:
    8 drum tracks-->drum bus --> master bus
    4 guitars --> guitar bus--> master bus
    1 bass--> bass bus--> master bus
    3 vocals--> vocal bus---> master bus

    Then sends from either the vocal tracks or the vox bus --> verb bus--> master bus

    Seems complicated but it will make your life a lot easier I promise.

    ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S  Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's,  lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's,  DI's,  Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t.
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    #6
    ohgrant
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 10:12:44 (permalink)
    OptimusOhgrant, I'm afraid you're way ahead of me here. What is convolution reverb and cabinet impulses.
    If you have Sonar, you should have Perfect space, if not you can try liquid sonics Reverberate very nice. Chuck has some great advise. Pretty important to learn how to set up and use busses first IMO.

    Me
     
    #7
    optimus
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 10:13:12 (permalink)
    Thanks ChuckC, printed your instructions and will try out tomorrow. Yes I see the logic in it but it will have to wait till morning.
    It's 1.45am down here in Aus and I need my beauty sleep.
     
    Many thanks 
     
     
    #8
    bitflipper
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 10:49:58 (permalink)
    I've never looked at the demo projects that come with SONAR, but surely one of them includes a reverb bus. A picture is worth a thousand words. 

    The biggest reverb-related problems I hear in peoples' mixes are: 1) reverb's too loud, 2) decay times are too long, and 3) reverb is not filtered, aggravating boominess and sibilance. 

    One piece of advice, optimus: if you're having trouble with reverb techniques, buying another reverb plugin is not going to help you. Even though I agree with Jonas' opinion on ValhallaRoom, I'd recommend holding on to your money for now. The Sonitus Reverb is quite adequate for anything short of a Vangelis cover.





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    #9
    jsaras
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 11:21:03 (permalink)
    Busing is important, but that's not going to change the actual sound of the reverb itself.  You are likely describing the sound of a plate reverb. It adds length, but it doesn't necessarily put the vocalist in a particular "space".

    Aside from the UAD EMT 140, my favorite plate reverb plugins are Valhalla Room and Audio Damage EOS.  Perfect Space has some plate impulses that you could try out.

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    #10
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 15:35:10 (permalink)
    my general rule of thumb for reverb. Most of the time but not always. 

    I add it to a track or a bus. turn it up to where I can hear it well..... make the adjustments to tails and room size and all the other things, then I normally turn it down to where I can not hear it ... then bump it slightly. 

    Remember that reverb is cumulative. If you have it in a track and have some more in a buss and have an  overall verb in the master, you risk having too much because they are additive in nature. 

    I have set up in that way and ended having to remove one or more of the verbs to keep it clean. 

    I almost always have verb on a guitar and at times it is high enough so it is audible and that is intentional when you hear that on my stuff. 

    Reverb is one of the most overused and abused FX that exist. It's often used to cover up a bad performance. 

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    jamesyoyo
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 16:29:29 (permalink)
    I think the other thing to consider is reverb, not as a traditional long wash, but short reflections to give instruments space from each other.
     
    For example, a lot of times on hobby mixes you will hear a guitar panned hard to one side. If you solo it, you would hear it only in one ear, very unbalanced because in real life you cannot hear something like that naturally unless you are deaf in one ear.
     By adding a very short ambient room reverb, pan it to the opposite side and voila! an instant sense of space.
    #12
    dmbaer
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 17:47:15 (permalink)
    optimus

    I am relatively new to audio recording and need to know when is reverb added to the track.
     
     
    The best thing you could do at this point is to pick up a copy of Mixing Audio by Roey Izhaki.  It has a lengthy chapter about reverb, as well as comprehesive treatment of many other aspects of mixing.  I also could give a strong recommendation to Mixing Secrets by Mike Senior.  It covers much of the same material as the Izhaki book, but from a somewhat different perspective.  I learned much about reverb from both.


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    bandontherun19
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/02 19:35:52 (permalink)
    Early and often, wetter is better.
     
    And Altiverb, go big or go home!
     
    http://www.audioease.com/Pages/Altiverb/
     
     
    post edited by bandontherun19 - 2012/03/02 19:39:55

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    LpMike75
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/03 03:33:02 (permalink)
    As an alternative you could try delays instead of reverb and see if that sound is what you are seeking.

    1/8 and 1/4 note delays really soft can add a sense of space and fullness without getting that 'cloudy' feeling.  To add what Jamesyoyo stated, if you pan a guitar to the left and pan the delay quietly to the right you will get nice effect.


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    optimus
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/03 18:51:43 (permalink)
    Thanks all. Lots to read and experiment with and think about.
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:When do you add reverb? 2012/03/03 20:42:01 (permalink)
    LpMike75


    As an alternative you could try delays instead of reverb and see if that sound is what you are seeking.

    1/8 and 1/4 note delays really soft can add a sense of space and fullness without getting that 'cloudy' feeling.  To add what Jamesyoyo stated, if you pan a guitar to the left and pan the delay quietly to the right you will get nice effect.


    excellent point and yes, I have used reverb and delay.... both alone and together in various combinations. Delay will often give the same effect as reverb but in a slightly different way..... sometimes it's better. 

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