"When you and the performers can't hear the same thing"

mike_mccue
I Have found it is easy to convey these sorts of ideas to a solo artist, but when you are working directly for a band, it gets really hard to convey these ideas to the "band." I think that is because a band is a conglomeration of ideas and attitudes and you can't effectively change the "band" without tilting the internal balance that they have at the present.
 
When you are working for a 3rd party investor and simply assigned to help the band it's much easier to coax the band into accepting outside ideas. The band knows they are working for someone and you have been assigned to help by the same investor.
 
When you are working for the band, especially if the mismatch in ideas is meant to cover up a weak spot in the band, it becomes very difficult to seem helpful if you are actually highlighting issues that they have learned to ignore, tolerate, or avoid resolving. That is not a lot of fun and it isn't what the "band" is paying you to do... although one or two members may be indicating that this is what they want you to do.
 
When you work for a solo artist it is a lot easier to coax them to make a retake, or abandon a bad trip and start over. It is a lot easier to establish a trust because you can do it privately and show them ways to make their presentations better without any of the baggage that spills out when you tilt the balance of a "band" of collaborating musicians.
 
I'm not saying I have answers, but I have observed that older established bands are easier to make happy and younger ambitious bands are often times unprepared to make the hard decisions. The thing is, often times, the younger bands can expand your personal *vision* and the way you hear things so I prefer to err on the side of letting them have what they say they want even if it's not what they want because if you make a mistake of not recognizing their artistic intent and err in the other direction you miss out on learning the best of the fresh new ideas.
 
 
best regards,
mike

 
Good post, Mike. To be honest, I don't think anyone will be able to nail this with one solid "way to go about it" because of all the variables involved. Most well-seasoned bands would never make rookie mistakes like being too effected, buzzy or to the point of literally degrading the sound to "bad" in an un-artistic way. I'm "assuming" there, so we can take that speculation with a grain of salt. But most times, the younger bands can play and write yet don't have a clue about the production aspect. You can tell in under 5 minutes whether they are trying to make an artistic statement or they're just plain clueless. So I think we have to also take heed of the obvious and maybe not give them the benefit of the doubt in THIS particular scenario. The issues John pointed out to us *could be* artistic, but from my own personal understanding of what he's given us without hearing it, it sounds like a client that just doesn't understand what goes on in the studio.
 
Another example is what Ben mentioned about the Sex Pistols. To me that band was raw and in your face, but the production didn't degrade the music to the point of ruining the material. This is a good example of artistic where as the way John explained his situation, it sounded more like noise, degradation, hiding/covering up the mix....or the guys simply not knowing what or how to listen when in the studio.

In this situation, a meeting of the minds is always a good way to initiate communication. For example, when I'm in a situation like this, I always do my best to let the band run wild until they need to be reeled in. As you said, these bands CAN and HAVE expanded me in so many ways, it's actually amazing. So I'd never want to take away from their craft. I go into everything with an open mind and even if I don't like something, will only comment if I'm asked and even then, I'll reply with "are you really sure you want my take?" However, being in this business a super long time as well as having really good communication skills with my clients and knowing a little bit about music and production, I can easily read between the lines when something is artistic and when something may be "wtf". I even allow experimentation and will be the first to jump on something new. But we have to give ourselves credit as engineers too. Sort of like in business where the old saying is "the customer is always right"? I've never agreed with that statement and actually have a thing on the wall that says "don't give me that customer is always right sh!t pal because it holds no power here!" LOL!
 
My point in saying that is, it's like I mentioned to Ben. When something is good, we can lo-fi it, analog it, process it, add some drive or saturation for "effect" purposes. When it enters the mix as sonic noise in a bad way that degrades a mix and most of all, the impact of the song, you have to draw the line on where artistic and catastrophic meet. LOL!
 
And though some may disagree on the whole name credibility thing, it depends on where you are in your business. If you do side jobs, you're probably not as concerned with word of mouth. When you're in a situation like me, the last thing you want to hear from the grapevine is "that album you did for so and so....the band and everyone else has been talking about it and thinks it was horrible."
 
Some can let that roll off their backs...but I sure can't. If I knew the album was bad and I just did it to please the client for the sake of a pay check, I did them a disservice and I can't live like that nor can I run my business that way. I'd rather walk from the job over being a button pusher for money. I've made my money thank God, so though this is one of my main sources of income, I do it feeling great about every job I've ever done as well as going all out to accommodate every client I've ever had. When that project leaves me, we both gave it the nod of approval or it doesn't leave. If someone passes around the grapevine that it sucks, to me that becomes hearsay because I know I did the best I could with what and who I had to work with, ya know? I don't allow people to make decisions for me that make me sick inside. I've walked from more jobs like that than I can even mention and honest when I tell you, I'm glad to have the power to do that. So when I'm asked what my opinion is, I don't hold back and speak my mind...without annihilating anyone of course. But I show them what's wrong, tell them what could be done to fix it, and offer to show them what my vision is.
 
Whether the above is right or wrong for my particular business practice, I feel fantastic running the business I run and never have any regrets. If they want my advice, they get it ten-fold. If they want to do their own thing, they can do that until it starts to sound like someone fell down the steps or there's a train-wreck somewhere. If they don't like my way of handling things, I have no problem having them pay what they owe and then releasing the wave files so they can go to someone that will further ruin their material for them. At least I can sleep at night. :)
 
-Danny

John T
Some excellent advice in this thread, thanks.
 
I'm going to offer some advice back: those of you who have thrown in some variant of "tell those guys they don't know what they're talking about and then show them the door" need to check yo selves before you wreck yo selves.

This is a reputation-based trade that we're in. Reputation on skill, reputation on time keeping, on getting things done, reputation on not being an ignorant rude jack-ass. The last of those four being nowhere near the least. Try being a working sound engineer with a reputation around town for dissing musicians and see how far you get.

This band is a good band. More importantly, a good band made up of really nice, cool people, who apart from the not-getting-it problem we're having, which is a mutual, cuts-both-ways thing, are an absolute pleasure to work with. I've got zero desire or need to disrespect them or their music in any way. I'd like to help them make it better, is all.

Well said. You find out who really owns a business that is successful and who may have a studio that is for side jobs or the hobbyist approach based on the answers. Reputation is so important...no one realizes this until they walk in our shoes. Having a day gig that pays well doing something else and running a studio for your head or for a little side work doesn't count like it does for guys like John and I. In this economy, praises from clients to the outside world instantly help to gain trust from strangers based on recommendations their friends make. Not to mention, people will pay a little more for someone that goes that extra mile. :)
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi

John T
Particular thanks to Danny and Jeff, who have brought their reliably wise counsel to the table. Also agree with Randy, re: reference points. I actually already did that, but it kind of highlighted the problem: there's a bit of a gap between what they actually sound like and what they think they sound like. They're not inferior to what they think they are, but they are different.

You're quite welcome. We're all here for each other. I know you pretty much had all the answers and knew what you were going to do ahead of time. BUT...it sure does help to vent or bounce a few questions off of us just for the re-assurance part. Good luck with everything John...those guys are lucky to have you on their side. :)
 
-Danny

Well, I rarely disagree with Danny, but we are not all here for each other. I'm here on the off chance Punky Meadows will stop by, see my brilliant advice, and want to hang out. Nothing more!
 
Randy