Helpful ReplyWhich 61 key keyboard controller?

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GjB
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2017/06/28 05:10:42 (permalink)

Which 61 key keyboard controller?

I'm looking to get a keyboard controller as soon as possible. 61 keys feels right (after having owned old Technics SX KN3000 and KN5000 keyboards a long time ago).
I'd like it to have faders, knobs and pads.
My budget for now is about $500 (equivalent).
The day after tomorrow, I'm looking to check out the M-Audio Code 61 which comes in at less than $300 equivalent (which seems cheaper than my memory of the older Axiom keyboard prices when new), but I realize that the Code range is not so new now, technology and competition is moving forward, and I haven't seen or felt the quality of them. (I usually watch reviews on YouTube.)
 
If you'd recommend any other keyboard controllers, I'd appreciate the heads up. Thank you.
 
Edit: I just found this post too, which is helpful.
post edited by GjB - 2017/06/28 06:09:00

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#1
Cactus Music
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/28 14:32:08 (permalink)
All I can say about keyboards is one factor often overlooked when shopping  is the  most important of all. 
FEEL! -- How does it feel under your fingers? 
You wouldn't buy a guitar if you didn't like the way the neck felt so the same applies to keyboards. And we all have different opinions on this just like we will have with any instrument. 
So I bought my Roland A49 solely based on I love the way it plays and feels compared to all the others that were on display the store that day. Of course I was also comparing features too which it also had the correct stuff for me as well.

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
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 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
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mettelus
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/28 15:20:33 (permalink)
+1 to the feel comment. One person's joy is another's misery, so unless it suits you it could end up a waste. Any big music shop with demo keyboards can be your fun house for a couple of hours and you will get the touch time on the different keyboards. Features is another consideration since a simple MIDI controller to drive virtual synths is less costly, but if you want more features there is also the risk of some not working well with a given DAW. "Class compliant" is something to look for to ensure basic functionality, but won't guarantee the full feature set if too complex. You will also want to buy from a source with a liberal (often 30 day) return policy so you have an out if you get it home and things go awry on you.

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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BobF
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/28 15:28:41 (permalink)
Integration with your DAW will also be important for those knobs and faders ...

Bob  --
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azslow3
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/28 17:59:49 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2017/06/28 20:22:24
+1 to the feel comment. But that is IMHO.
 
For "faders, knobs and pads", while it looks like IMHO or even as an Ad., these are facts. You have following options:
1) controller with original Sonar integration. Nektar LX-61. The only in that category. Faders/Knobs/buttons are simple, but it does what documentation specify.
2) controller dedicated for particular plug-in framework control. NI or Akai Advance. That will not control Sonar except transport, till you switching the board into MIDI mode you use (3) or (6).
3) any other controller when you ready to be limited by:
3.a) Generic Surface plug-in. Tracks control (no buses) + transport + very limited Plug-in mapping. No feedback.
3.b) ACT MIDI plug-in. 8 faders + 8 knobs + 8 buttons (counted including transport!). No feedback.
3.c) (a)+(b) together, will have bad "side effects" when you work with MIDI tracks.
3.d) "MIDI Learn" in Sonar, was broken at many places before, claimed to be fixed in the latest update (I have not checked yet).
3.e) "MIDI Learn" inside VSTi (can be used in parallel with other methods, but can not share controls with them till they are switched on the device or in (6)).
4) keyboard and DAW controller separately, like X-Touch, MCU-Pro, Faderport. All 3 have good Sonar support, but for the first two comments in (5) also apply. Or Console 1 for own and UAD FXes (only).
5*) controller with partial MCU emulation. M-Audio / Behringer Motör. You will need my MackieControl plug-in mod, but it is open source. You will have feedback where hardware support it (for Motör with motor sensors). Partial FX control (hard to setup, manually editing XML files), no SoftSynth control, in ProChannel EQ and Comp. only.
6*) any controller with the number and kind of faders/knobs/pads you like (except Naktar Panorama). You will need my AZ Controller (free to use but proprietary and not open source) and cooperate with me (so spend quite some time) to make it work as you like (all available for surfaces by Sonar functionality can be programmed, specifically for your needs, with feedback on device, computer screed and/or phone/tablet throw network). Technically everyone can configure it for own needs. Practically only one person has managed to make complicated configuration without me).
 
Finally, if you want control plug-ins using Sonar Dynamic Mapping (in options (1),(3) and (6)), you will probably have troubles without yet another my tool

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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/28 18:23:22 (permalink)
+1 on the "Feel" factor
 
If you can... go check out several MIDI controllers in person.
It's great that MIDI controllers are so accessible (affordable)... but quality varies radically.
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
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Jesse G
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/29 03:42:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/06/29 22:44:14
I purchased the M-audio Code for Christmas as a gift to myself and haven't looked back.  
 
Take a closer look at the M-Audio CODE 61

Peace,
Jesse G. A fisher of men  <><
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Cakewalk and I are going places together!

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GjB
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/30 12:06:42 (permalink)
Cactus Music
All I can say about keyboards is one factor often overlooked when shopping is the most important of all. 
FEEL! -- How does it feel under your fingers? 
You wouldn't buy a guitar if you didn't like the way the neck felt so the same applies to keyboards. And we all have different opinions on this just like we will have with any instrument. 
So I bought my Roland A49 solely based on I love the way it plays and feels compared to all the others that were on display the store that day. Of course I was also comparing features too which it also had the correct stuff for me as well.




Thanks Cactus Music,
Yes, I agree that feel is very important. I expect that your Roland A49 was easy to setup with Sonar, too.*

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GjB
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/30 12:08:38 (permalink)
mettelus
+1 to the feel comment. One person's joy is another's misery, so unless it suits you it could end up a waste. Any big music shop with demo keyboards can be your fun house for a couple of hours and you will get the touch time on the different keyboards. Features is another consideration since a simple MIDI controller to drive virtual synths is less costly, but if you want more features there is also the risk of some not working well with a given DAW. "Class compliant" is something to look for to ensure basic functionality, but won't guarantee the full feature set if too complex. You will also want to buy from a source with a liberal (often 30 day) return policy so you have an out if you get it home and things go awry on you.



Thanks mettelus,
I enjoyed spending time with a few keyboards today, deciding what felt better and for what price, etc.
 
 

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GjB
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/30 12:10:45 (permalink)
BobF
Integration with your DAW will also be important for those knobs and faders ...


Thanks BobF.
I'm hoping that the one I bought will integrate well with Sonar, although maybe not as easily as it does with some other DAWs apparently..

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GjB
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/30 12:19:24 (permalink)
azslow3
+1 to the feel comment. But that is IMHO.
 
For "faders, knobs and pads", while it looks like IMHO or even as an Ad., these are facts. You have following options:
1) controller with original Sonar integration. Nektar LX-61. The only in that category. Faders/Knobs/buttons are simple, but it does what documentation specify.
2) controller dedicated for particular plug-in framework control. NI or Akai Advance. That will not control Sonar except transport, till you switching the board into MIDI mode you use (3) or (6).
3) any other controller when you ready to be limited by:
3.a) Generic Surface plug-in. Tracks control (no buses) + transport + very limited Plug-in mapping. No feedback.
3.b) ACT MIDI plug-in. 8 faders + 8 knobs + 8 buttons (counted including transport!). No feedback.
3.c) (a)+(b) together, will have bad "side effects" when you work with MIDI tracks.
3.d) "MIDI Learn" in Sonar, was broken at many places before, claimed to be fixed in the latest update (I have not checked yet).
3.e) "MIDI Learn" inside VSTi (can be used in parallel with other methods, but can not share controls with them till they are switched on the device or in (6)).
4) keyboard and DAW controller separately, like X-Touch, MCU-Pro, Faderport. All 3 have good Sonar support, but for the first two comments in (5) also apply. Or Console 1 for own and UAD FXes (only).
5*) controller with partial MCU emulation. M-Audio / Behringer Motör. You will need my MackieControl plug-in mod, but it is open source. You will have feedback where hardware support it (for Motör with motor sensors). Partial FX control (hard to setup, manually editing XML files), no SoftSynth control, in ProChannel EQ and Comp. only.
6*) any controller with the number and kind of faders/knobs/pads you like (except Naktar Panorama). You will need my AZ Controller (free to use but proprietary and not open source) and cooperate with me (so spend quite some time) to make it work as you like (all available for surfaces by Sonar functionality can be programmed, specifically for your needs, with feedback on device, computer screed and/or phone/tablet throw network). Technically everyone can configure it for own needs. Practically only one person has managed to make complicated configuration without me).
 
Finally, if you want control plug-ins using Sonar Dynamic Mapping (in options (1),(3) and (6)), you will probably have troubles without yet another my tool


Thank you azslow3 for all of your input there.
Yes, I did notice new things like 'MackieControl' in the settings. I need to work out how to get the best integration possible for my setup. I've only just started playing with the setup today. Thanks again.

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GjB
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/30 12:23:00 (permalink)
Jim Roseberry
+1 on the "Feel" factor
 
If you can... go check out several MIDI controllers in person.
It's great that MIDI controllers are so accessible (affordable)... but quality varies radically.
 


Thanks Jim, I quite agree, and I noticed that today.
 
Edit: Sorry everyone. I should have replied to you all individually - but in the same post. I'm sorry to have spammed this thread with too many reply posts. I can't delete them.
 
Jesse G
I purchased the M-audio Code for Christmas as a gift to myself and haven't looked back.  
 
Take a closer look at the M-Audio CODE 61


 
Thanks Jesse G.
 
I just bought the Code 61 today! It is better quality than I had expected - after researching it for the past week or two.
I actually really like it, and the keys feel really nice, too.
The only thing I am a tiny bit disappointed about is this:
 

So, I'm curious about the best way to get the maximum Code 61 integration setup with Sonar.
The keyboard works well to play sounds in Sonar, but I was hoping that most of the other stuff could be setup with just the import of an ACT file. Anyway, very early days yet. Baby steps. Thank you all.
post edited by GjB - 2017/06/30 13:06:25

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mettelus
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/30 14:32:16 (permalink)
Alexey (azslow3), who posted above, is an excellent resource for controllers. If you hit snags during setup, he has a lot of insight and resources he has made to get the most out of a controller with SONAR.

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azslow3
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/30 14:53:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby GjB 2017/09/30 05:51:01
GjB
So, I'm curious about the best way to get the maximum Code 61 integration setup with Sonar.
The keyboard works well to play sounds in Sonar, but I was hoping that most of the other stuff could be setup with just the import of an ACT file. Anyway, very early days yet. Baby steps. Thank you all.

"Import ACT file" is not going to work. You can get some functionality with "ACT MIDI" and/or "Generic surface". But even when you get throw all assignments, you will "hit the wall" of limits and bugs. So I repeat, that way you get some functionality, but for sure not "the maximum", not even reasonable.
 
Not the maximum, but reasonable and fast to setup results you can get using the following:
1) switch Code to MackieControl mode. Check the documentation and/or guides for using it with Ableton (in the part what you should do on Code hardware side)
2) in the Sonar Preferences, MIDI, enable Code MackieControl input and output. They should be visible as "Code 25 (Port 3)" / "Code (MackieControl)". Important they are "Port 3" or explicitly marked as "Mackie" (for input and output)
3) in the Sonar Preferences, Control Surfaces, add "MackieControl". Set "Input" and "Output" to mentioned before ports (NOT to other!). In the Control Surface toolbar module you should see "MackieControl" / "Connecting...". And nothing works... that is expected (M-Audio has not implemented Mackie emulation correctly).
4) exit Sonar, follow http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,341.0.html . Including "Configuration" section to set "Disable handshake". Your Code should be able to control Sonar now. Tricky part is to find which function is triggered by which buttons (M-Audio has "forgotten" to write the documentation).
 
Finally about "the maximum". AZ Controller (and there is no other options). You will need to invest a lot of time into deciding what you want the device does in Sonar, have patience waiting till I implement that in preset and again time to test the result is working (I do not have the device). "Maximum" does not come for free (in terms of your time, money are not involved since AZ Controller is free to use).

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Jesse G
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/30 16:36:36 (permalink)
azslow3, 
 
When is the book coming out,  we can have it as good night time reading.

Peace,
Jesse G. A fisher of men  <><
==============================
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azslow3
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/30 17:22:00 (permalink)
Jesse G
azslow3, 
 
When is the book coming out,  we can have it as good night time reading.

Easy way to have nightmare, English native speakers will see Putin is hacking there computers from control surface 
 
But thank you for the tip, I better make separate topics on my forum and put the link instead of toomanycharacters here... 

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Jesse G
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/06/30 21:02:06 (permalink)
azslow3
Jesse G
azslow3, 
 
When is the book coming out,  we can have it as good night time reading.

Easy way to have nightmare, English native speakers will see Putin is hacking there computers from control surface 



 
I am burning and throwing out my control surface just at the thought of that.

Peace,
Jesse G. A fisher of men  <><
==============================
Cakewalk and I are going places together!

Cakewalk By Bandlab, Windows 10 Pro- 64 bit, Gigabyte GA-Z97X-SLI, Intel Core i5-4460 Haswell Processor, Crucial Ballistix 32 GB Ram, PNY GeForce GTX 750, Roland Octa-Capture, Mackie Big Knob, Mackie Universal Controller (MCU), KRK V4's, KRK Rockit 6, Korg TR-61 Workstation, M-Audio Code 49 MIDI keyboard controller.[/
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auto_da_fe
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/01 00:49:17 (permalink)
 If you have Komplete, do not forget Komplete Kontrol.
 
If you do not have Komplete, then it puts it out of the price range.
 
Jeff

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GjB
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/01 16:23:53 (permalink)
Yes, thanks mettelus, azslow3 has the resource and knowledge about controllers.
 
azslow3, thank you very much for all of your instructions. I think I've done most of what I'm supposed to have done.
 
But how can we test to see that we have control and have made progress? I can play music of course as before, but I was hoping I could adjust (and animate) the Master volume slider in Sonar for example - with the Master slider on my Code 61. How can we check that we have adequate (or more than before) control? Sorry for the beginner type question.
 
I see that Jesse G has a Code 49. In beginner terms, what example things can you do with Sonar (where you can see the changes happen in Sonar) via your Code 49?
 
Thank you very much. 
post edited by GjB - 2017/07/02 00:58:28

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azslow3
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/01 20:54:06 (permalink)
The simplest way to check MackieControl plug-in is working correctly is to use transport buttons. Press play and Sonar should do this. If nothing happens, check the routing (Code port used as Input/Output for MackieControl plug-in, you can try to re-select them... it seems like 2017.6 can show one port while using another).
 
If transport is working, that means at least input is connected correctly. What plug-in does with original device you can check pressing "F1" after opening Utilities / Mackie Control - 1. Which buttons/pads on Code correspond to which buttons on MCU is not documented. May be Jesse has found that already. If mode keys are imitated, the behavior can change. Unfortunately Code has no display to show you what is going on. In default mode, select/mute/solo should work as well as pan/volume.
 
To specify what master fader controls, check "Master fader" section in Mackie Control configuration (default is the first hardware output volume).

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GjB
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/02 02:12:20 (permalink)
Thanks very much.
So far the following works in Sonar via my controller keyboard:
The Play, Stop and Fast Forward buttons work 100% of the time. The Rewind button sometimes doesn't work (although the display changes on the controller) unless I Fast Forward first. The Record button doesn't do anything at the moment.
 
Just to make sure at the moment, here are my settings:
 
Audio - Devices

 
Audio - Driver Settings

 
MIDI - Devices

 
MIDI - Instruments (I haven't manually changed this.)

 
MIDI - Control Surfaces

 
Just to throw in a noob question, I'm assuming that I don't need to use any MIDI cables between my Code 61 and Focusrite 2i4? There's no added feature or benefit? (I do have some unused ones from 20 years ago.) All I'm using at the moment are the USB cable from the controller to the PC, and the USB cable from the 2i4 to the PC.
 
Thank you for your time.

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azslow3
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/02 08:14:30 (permalink)
The configuration looks fine. No extra MIDI cables required.
 
I find it strange rewind does not always work and record does not work at all. There are bugs with fast moving in Sonar, under some conditions. But I have never seen record is not working, have you tested with some track armed?
And what about faders, knobs, buttons, pads? They should do something...

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#22
GjB
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/02 08:48:44 (permalink)
Yes, sorry that's my mistake! I wasn't arming the track. With the track armed, the record button on the Code 61 starts the recording in Sonar. Thanks
 
The pads work and produce sounds. The Code 61 Master Slider changes Sonar's Master audio volume and the green peak meter in Sonar changes accordingly, but it doesn't move the Master volume slider up or down in Sonar. Is it supposed to?
 
The Code 61's F2 and F3 sliders also change the sound parameters, and the E1 knob adjusts the balance, I think.
 
I haven't tested the other buttons and things, as I'm still learning the basics and researching bits and pieces.
 
I'm fixated on having Sonar's Master volume slider move up and down if I adjust the volume slider on the Code 61. As a beginner, I'm not sure if it is supposed to be able to or not. (If not it's no big deal.)
 
Thanks very much. It's all good fun.

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#23
azslow3
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/02 17:22:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby GjB 2017/09/30 05:51:21
GjB
I'm fixated on having Sonar's Master volume slider move up and down if I adjust the volume slider on the Code 61. As a beginner, I'm not sure if it is supposed to be able to or not. (If not it's no big deal.)

As I have mentioned before, open Utilities / Mackie Control -1 and in the left lower corner set what master slider should control. Can be Hardware outputs (default) or a bus (of your choice, by number).
 
I have looked into Code documentation again, in fact they document Mackie Control mode. So read "Code Series User Guide", search for chapters with Mackie Control, separate for each controlling group (f.e. Faders / Modes/ Mackie Control/HUI Mode). You can start with page 96 to get general idea.
Unfortunately it looks like Code has only Mackie Strip controls and does not imitate any right side original Mackie unit buttons. That significantly restrict what Code can do.
I have mentioned before, to get more you have to invest time into AZ Controller.

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#24
GjB
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/03 11:00:29 (permalink)
Thanks for all of your help azslow3. I'll look into AZ Controller in the near future when I need to dial things in even more.
 
At the moment, I've also got more things to work now. I followed this video on YouTube `M-Audio || Introduction & Overview on the Code Series'. I wasn't in Mackie mode! A simple noob mistake, I'm afraid. So as soon as the Code 61 is in Mackie mode, the buttons turn to green as opposed to being multiple colors. Then the faders control the track volumes, the buttons select the tracks, and knobs control the panning of the tracks (for now).
 
As for the Master slider, thank you. I followed what you said (Utilities - Mackie Control 1) and then changed the Master Fader option from Master to Bus, which now controls the Master volume. (I hope that was the correct thing to do.)
 
It's great to see the volume dials move in Sonar now when I adjust the faders on the Code 61. Call me a noob, but it's starting to feel like a studio. I'm loving Sonar so far.
post edited by GjB - 2017/07/03 11:49:24

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#25
azslow3
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/03 15:36:53 (permalink)
GjB
Thanks for all of your help azslow3. I'll look into AZ Controller in the near future when I need to dial things in even more.
...
It's great to see the volume dials move in Sonar now when I adjust the faders on the Code 61. Call me a noob, but it's starting to feel like a studio. I'm loving Sonar so far.

I am glad you like your setup. And you are welcome in case you have future questions.
 
But please do not look into AZ Controller yourself... It is complicated even for MIDI experts and programmers. If/when you have time and willing to extend the functionality of your Code, just contact me.

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
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#26
GjB
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/04 00:34:05 (permalink)
azslow3
I am glad you like your setup. And you are welcome in case you have future questions.
 
But please do not look into AZ Controller yourself... It is complicated even for MIDI experts and programmers. If/when you have time and willing to extend the functionality of your Code, just contact me.



OK. Thank you.

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#27
mudgel
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/05 03:27:32 (permalink)
I've just put a deposit on my Native Instruments Kontrol S88. Hope to have it by the end of August.

Hi Alexsey - guess I'll have to setup a bat phone for direct communication with you at that time. Lol.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#28
azslow3
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/05 08:15:01 (permalink)
mudgel
I've just put a deposit on my Native Instruments Kontrol S88. Hope to have it by the end of August.

Hi Alexsey - guess I'll have to setup a bat phone for direct communication with you at that time. Lol.

(Extended) transport keys definition already exist for NI.
 
May be we can make auto-track switching working. I mean what "native" supported DAWs have: switch tracks with controller, when not NI track is selected - switch to MIDI mode, when NI track is selected - switch to NKS for corresponding instance.
The problem is not switching tracks, nor sending the information to keyboard (some "known" DAW use text based scripting language for control surfaces, so we can get required information from there). But Sonar has no feature to return which track belong to which synth... In some topology that is not possible, tricks will not help. But with several prescriptions what should be avoided, I think we can make it.

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
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#29
Maarkr
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Re: Which 61 key keyboard controller? 2017/07/28 18:58:45 (permalink)
Not to hijack this, but to clarify:  The Komplete S series is good to go as well as the Nektar LX series?  What about the new Panorama series?  The S series has some nice features but looks like its tied primarily to NI products.
I don't want to spend time f'n around with midi and other drivers/settings all day.  
I am also ignorant about a Sonar controller (no keyboard).  What is out there that integrates well with Sonar without dealing with excessive setup?  This may be better for me than the kb controller since I already have many keyboards.

Maarkr
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#30
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