darylcrowley
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Which dithering setting do you use?
When exporting to CD audio, which dithering setting do you use and why?
Daryl
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SteveD
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/15 08:54:06
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Triangular for 24 bit bounces and Powr-3 for final wordlength reduction to 16 bit.
The first is more gentle and doesn't contribute to dither build-up. Powr-3 should be used only once... at the end of the mastering process.
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DonM
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/15 08:56:20
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G: Material matters. For my sacred choral projects with 2.5 to 4 second natural ambience, I use Pow-r 3 - someone correct me here if I'm wrong but Pow-r 3 dithers with high contour noise shaping, again that is most effective for the natural decay in ambience I need. Selecting between types is a process of testing in my opinion - the dither and shape of the noise should be selected based on your tests on sections of audio - pick the soft stuff or places where the material has a musical stab/break. One of my favorite pop examples is a CD I am working right now has a driving verse - chorus and at the end of chorus one the band stops and the drummer hits a snare at beat four leading into the downbeat of the next verse - this is the location where I'd select a section of that audio and test all of the dither alogrithms and noise shapes -use a tool like Voxengo Span (Free!) to verify what you are hearing. Read Izotopes guide to dithering - it's available as free download - that is a very useful tool to assist you in the selection of algorithms. -D
post edited by DonM - 2007/01/15 09:17:06
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DonM
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/15 08:58:32
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ORIGINAL: SteveD
Triangular for 24 bit bounces and Powr-3 for final wordlength reduction to 16 bit.
The first is more gentle and doesn't contribute to dither build-up. Powr-3 should be used only once... at the end of the mastering process.
Steve where in the workflow do you do the triangular? Never mind I see what you're referring to... -D
post edited by DonM - 2007/01/15 09:18:31
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BluerecordingStudios
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/15 10:46:58
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I using POWr-2 for power pop songs and POWr-3 for accoustical recordings. At the end of mastering process 
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Tape Head
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/15 14:14:06
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SteveD
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/15 15:24:57
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ORIGINAL: Tape Head
SteveD...
or anyone else
Hey bud!!
What are your thoughts on this?
Check out this thread...
http://www.chrismilne.com/uadforums/viewtopic.php?t=6279
Hey Scott, Dither exists because it sounds better than the truncation that occurs when reducing wordlength. This happens when bouncing from 32 or 64 bit float (while mixing inside SONAR) to a new 32, 24, or 16 bit file on disk. At 16 bit, your audio cuts out (gets truncated) at -96db which is certainly audible. It's quiet, but audible. When tracking at 16 bit, it makes sense to use hardware dither if your converters have it. My Apogees provide a button to enable UV22HR dither for this purpose, but it is for 16 bit recording only. If that button is enabled, a dithered 16 bit signal is delivered, even if the DAW is set for 24 bit recording. My advice is record at 24 bit, dither bounced files with gentle (i.e. triangular) dither if your bounces are truncated to 24 bit files, and dither ONCE to 16 bit for CD audio at the end of the mastering chain with a high quality dither like POW-r, Waves L2, or Apogee UV22HR. "Every well-made 16 bit A/D incorporates dither to liniarize the signal. If you were lucky enough to have a 20-bit, or 24-bit A/D and 24-bit storage to begin with, then dither is probably not necessary during the original analog encoding." - Bob Katz, Mastering Audio, the art and the science, page 51.
post edited by SteveD - 2007/01/15 17:18:20
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DonM
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/15 17:34:55
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ORIGINAL: Tape Head
SteveD...
or anyone else
Hey bud!!
What are your thoughts on this?
Check out this thread...
http://www.chrismilne.com/uadforums/viewtopic.php?t=6279
TH: You could have asked Bob himself over at the mastering section of Gearslutz.... until yesterday - he's checked out for about 8 months to complete the second edition of the Mastering Audio book.... can't wait until the fall now! -D
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basstracker7769
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/19 13:28:39
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Ok so why would you use Dither in bouncing if your still at 24 bits?? I use dither once when im ready to go to 16 bit thats it. Its the way ive always heard it to be done, once time at the end. Im 24 bits tracking, mixing and bouncing to 24bit then when im done mastering i bounce it to 16 bit thats the final thing i do
ok i burn it to a CD thats the final thing i do
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SteveD
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/19 13:54:18
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Because you're mixing at 32-bit float (or 64-bit if the SONAR 64-bit audio engine is enabled). You may have noticed that SONAR 6 has a dither option, defaulted to triangular dither, in the Bounce to Track dialog box. SONAR 6 can export the same bit depth that you are using for mixing, in which case no dither is needed or used. But if you have SONAR set to create 24-bit files during bounces, SONAR will automatically apply 24-bit dither unless you change it to another type of dither, or turn it off because you for some reason prefer truncation. Granted 24 bit truncation is inaudible by itself. But we've done tests here on the forum to prove that it's there and that there is a "possibility" of that truncation contributing to the harshness of mixes. As a result of the testing... Cakewalk confirmed the theory and implemented the dither option in the bounce dialog box. I don't know if 24-bit truncation build up is audible or not... that's REALLY quiet. I seem to remember a "gnat sneezing on the side of the space shuttle" analogy ... but the spectrum analysis revealed smoother activity at that level when 24-bit dither was used.
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basstracker7769
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/22 09:46:41
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Thanks i was wondering because the Dither was defaulted in the options. I need to check to see if they are being truncated since i want to keep the resolution at its highest till the last moment. I wanna stay at 32 bits. It does say on the session that its 44k 32bit.
Is it truncating to 24 bits By default when i bounce down a mix ??
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Jose7822
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/22 10:09:48
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Is it truncating to 24 bits By default when i bounce down a mix ?? I think the default is 32 bits, I don't remember now. But you can check it out in the Audio Tab under Options>Global. You will see: 1) The record bit depth - the bit depth your soundcard uses to record (the bit depth of your projects). 2) The render bit depth - bit depth used when rendering or bouncing audio. 3) The import bit depth - bit depth used when importing audio material. If you're using the 64 bit engine and wanna keep it at the highest bit depth then you might wanna change the render bit depth to 64 bits. The problem with that comes if you master outside of Sonar to any application that does not support 64 bit. If that's the case then just keep it at 32 bits.
post edited by Jose7822 - 2007/01/22 10:31:36
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bthompson
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/22 10:23:58
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ORIGINAL: darylcrowley
When exporting to CD audio, which dithering setting do you use and why?
I almost always use Powr-2 for 16 bit exports. Powr-3 sounds fine to my ears but if you look at its spectrum you'll see its very aggressively noise shaped and there's a *lot* of energy from 18-20kHz. I can't hear that any more at my advanced age but I wonder how it sounds to younger ears at higher levels. Of course these days all younger ears have been damaged by iPods and it may not be an issue Listen to the decay of a reverb tail on a very clean, quiet recording and decide what you like. On pristine classical or choral stuff there very definitely is a difference. On typical pop stuff it matters less. --Bill
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openhorizons
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/22 12:49:25
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I'm a little confused about dithering. I use Sonar 6 studio and I selected the 64 bit depth/48kHz when working in my project (Recording Bit Depth, Render Bit depth and Import Bit Depth are all set to 64). I have the L2 waves plugin and I wanted to know where do I set the dithering option to 16,20,22, etc... The audio that I am importing in is from a c.d. The c.d. is a live recording from a public speaker no music or anything, just speech.
Lets say that I select the right dithering option from the L2, when I go to export the audio (after I did some editing to it), to be burnned back to c.d again, do I select the dithering option in the dialog box when exporting or do you deselect it because I already used dither with the L2. If anyone could help me understand this better in the most simplest way, I will greatly appreciate it and clear up the confusion.
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Jose7822
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/22 13:08:06
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Lets say that I select the right dithering option from the L2, when I go to export the audio (after I did some editing to it), to be burnned back to c.d again, do I select the dithering option in the dialog box when exporting or do you deselect it because I already used dither with the L2. If anyone could help me understand this better in the most simplest way, I will greatly appreciate it and clear up the confusion. You would use either Sonars or L2's dithering, but just one of them and only once (before burning back to CD as you wrote).
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openhorizons
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/22 13:15:28
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ORIGINAL: Jose7822
Lets say that I select the right dithering option from the L2, when I go to export the audio (after I did some editing to it), to be burnned back to c.d again, do I select the dithering option in the dialog box when exporting or do you deselect it because I already used dither with the L2. If anyone could help me understand this better in the most simplest way, I will greatly appreciate it and clear up the confusion.
You would use either Sonars or L2's dithering, but just one of them and only once (before burning back to CD as you wrote).
Thanks that helps but, what about which dithering option do you use on the L2 and how do you know which one to use?
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atreal1_1
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/22 16:09:14
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what about if you use the L2 on more than 1 track within a project??? do I use no dithering at all on each L2 plugged in?
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Jose7822
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RE: Which dithering setting do you use?
2007/01/22 19:17:39
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Thanks that helps but, what about which dithering option do you use on the L2 and how do you know which one to use? The manual explains all of this. When I use L-2 I set it to Ultra, Type 2. what about if you use the L2 on more than 1 track within a project??? You could do that but I would not recommend it. Just turn the volume up and then you will not need to limit everything. do I use no dithering at all on each L2 plugged in? No, dithering is only used before burning to CD...it's the very last step in mastering.
post edited by Jose7822 - 2007/01/22 19:38:31
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