Jonbouy


Bingo! On the first sentence.

I've loved Sonar since the start at Version 7 and just today when somebody asked in the Software section which DAW audio engine was the most robust at the lowest latency between Sonar and S1, I of course replied Sonar.

The reason being it is true for straight line low latency performance Sonar works better it also works better for heavily processor intensive mixing in my experience.  I didn't go on to remark on the benefits of gapless audio looping in S1, that was pointed out by others I just stuck with the question being asked.

I do feel the company lost it's way providing an upgrade that pretty much overlooked functionality and long standing bugs in an attempt to improve the look of the product, although this may well appeal to newer Sonar users.  The release cycles of Sonar show a characteristic plethora of teething troubles which I didn't want to go through again and boy did I call that right on this one.

There were serious issues with the eStore when I upgraded to 8.5 which and I was pretty much fobbed off after a patient 3 week delay in getting that upgrade as were a list of people contained in a several page thread.  It was a complete fiasco and nobody even admitted to there being a problem, direct communication with the company for me has always proved difficult Customer support requests have gone unanswered so regularly that I stop bothering.  Likewise bug reports although confirmed have never recieved attention.  Again this has led to me taking recourse to venting here.  In fact my dealings with the eStore are the worst of any online company I've dealt with and that is no exaggeration and bear in mind that includes all the UK utility companies and trust me you have some fierce competion there.

At least people like yourself take an interest in that on occasion, although it isn't the recognized way of communicating with the company it seems to have been the only way where I've had even a modicum of success.

To say that I hate X1 isn't the case, I've tried it I've seen others working with it and I've learned there are some actual workflow improvements that do have some merit and pretty much underneath all that it's still the old Sonar I know and love, some of the still extant bugs are a testament to that.  I certainly have no intention of upsetting anybody that is happy with X1 but I will rally against people that think I'm just angry for the sake of it and call me a 'basher' just because I express a genuinely critical point of view which normally incidentally if you were masochistic enough to go back through them you'll notice have some factual validity.

I've stated clearly on numerous occasions that a fix to the existing 32 bit functionality of Rewire would have been enough to see me upgrade, in all honesty it's an update on that little .dll called dewire and yet over 4 major releases it still hasn't been tackled.  And as you yourself mentioned my ownership of Reason let me tell you I only ever used it as one would a VST via Rewire it has since progressed in functionality to the point where I've become to use it's gapless audio tracking abilities and comping options in preference to the still murky waters of Sonar's layers and unpredicatable behaviour with automation on said layers, not to mention it's ability to seamlessy stretch audio in accordance with the tempo, it ain't my fault that one product has grown and yet another remains at the same level of functionality.

Remember too this is another multi-pager mostly comprising of folks that didn't buy into the Expanded fold.  Honestly if you read the posts here are you surprised or did you really think this was a real $50 breakthrough deal?  This is another frustrating aspect there is this precious customer feedback yet it seems the company is almost oblivious to what it's customers are actually saying.  Going back to the Propellerheads again customers (forum users) we're horrified at the prospect at paying $99 to go to Reason 6 which offered 3 killer new devices and combining the R5 and Record duo that many already had.  So what did they do?  They said OK just pay what you think it's worth.

Not Cakewalk though it just puts spin into overdrive on some existing feature improvements which could easily be argued as being bug fixes to the original intent of X1, throws in a Saturation plug and charges $50 dollars for that.  You'd have surely got more returns by giving the improvements to all X1 producer owners, squash some bugs along the way and be able to sell more $50 modules to every X1 Producer user you have, and regained much of the good will lost over the difficult X1 launch, no?

Yes I love the people I've dealt with here from the company, I love the community here it is still second to none, I love the product of yours that I have but if you think I'm going to stand by and watch the 'Kewl me tooers' blow smoke up your bottoms for so little movement while other companies are making some real serious functional strides then you have another think coming...

I'm bloody passionate about the company and it's flagship product didn't you realise?

But thanks for asking...it'll probably calm me down for a few weeks at least having got that load off...

Hi Jon,

Fair enough. Thank you for your thoughtful reply which I read with interest, some disagreement and some genuine sympathy. :-) Passion is something I certainly understand and if your desire is to get our attention in an effort to improve the product then by all means "do whatcha do". Hopefully we can take this kind of discourse, while maybe not the "recognized way of communicating with the company" (although it's arguably a pretty good way) and make it truly and tangibly productive in the long run - for all of us. My sincere hope is that it eventually leads to you being a happy user of of X1 (or X2...).

Again, I appreciate the time taken to express your thoughts and concerns and for the overall tone of your response. It is taken very close to heart indeed.

SteveStrummerUK

Anderton


With X1e I made a "Distortion Construction Kit" in Pro Channel using EQ, compression, and both the Softube and Cakewalk saturations. Re-arranging the module order makes a huge difference in the sound (e.g., EQ before, after, or between saturations). It's nothing that couldn't be done with VST plug-ins, but having it saved as part of a project is convenient.

That sounds really interesting Craig, would you care to share your settings with a fellow guitar slinger

Of course! But, I'm still tweaking it. Seems every time I think it's done, I come up with something else...I've also been experimenting with copying the track, not passing it through any processing, and throwing it out of phase so any dry components cancel but the distortion components don't. It's a pretty interesting sound, and I'm tweaking that too.


So far one of the "good" effects order is Bus Compressor > Tube > Saturation Knob > EQ, with the EQ set for high and low frequency rolloffs, a steep midrange notch at about 650Hz, and a slight lift at 3500Hz to make the guitar "speak" a little more. But, these settings are subject to change without notice...placing EQ between the Tube and Saturation Knob can also be useful.

It looks like I'll be doing a sequel to the Advanced Workshop video, in which case this whole distortion construction kit concept will DEFINITELY be one of the chapters.

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]


Hi Jon,

Fair enough. Thank you for your thoughtful reply which I read with interest, some disagreement and some genuine sympathy. :-) Passion is something I certainly understand and if your desire is to get our attention in an effort to improve the product then by all means "do whatcha do". Hopefully we can take this kind of discourse, while maybe not the "recognized way of communicating with the company" (although it's arguably a pretty good way) and make it truly and tangibly productive in the long run - for all of us. My sincere hope is that it eventually leads to you being a happy user of of X1 (or X2...).

Again, I appreciate the time taken to express your thoughts and concerns and for the overall tone of your response. It is taken very close to heart indeed.

There ya go, I can't please 'em all all the time likewise I don't expect you to either.

TBH it was good to have the opportunity to clarify to myself what my motivation has been lately as often it seems to me I'm merely trying to defend myself against some of the loyalists here.  But as somebody has already called me out as being a Fanbouy already in this thread it goes to show that you guys must be doing something right to have so many staunch supporters as customers.

I sincerely hope it stays that way moving forward.

I don't want to sound like a Cakewalk apologist, but I do want to help people who are having problems with X1 crashing. I have been using X1 since it entered the world and starting with X1c, have had hardly any reliability/stability problems at all, and none yet since X1e (and I exercise X1 pretty hard). However, in the process (and because I run lots of other programs) I've found that hardware makes a huge difference in stability.To give a non-Sonar example, Ableton Live on my laptop did nasty gaps and crackles even at really long latencies. Turned out is was the CPU switching between max and min power specified in the Windows power plan. As soon as I set them to the same value, the problem went away. With my desktop, with a previous version of Sonar I had unusually heavy stability/freezing problems that ultimately ended up being due to an outdated graphics card driver. I've also had severe stability issues with some programs (although not Sonar for some reason) if onboard audio was enabled and I was using an external interface too. Then there was the time that the dongle for Propellerheads' Record caused the Windows Recycle Bin not to function properly (!). Say what?!? Based on my experience, Sonar X1 SHOULD work reliably. X1 does push Windows and computers, and graphics capabilities seem to matter. I'm sure everyone would rather make music than be a computer IT professional, but I've found that investing some time and effort into hardware analysis and in some cases, component replacement makes a gigantic difference in terms of reliability. Interestingly, Sony Vegas seems to "track" Sonar performance. If something is amiss that causes Sonar to get flaky, Vegas is flaky. If something makes Sonar run more smoothly, Vegas runs more smoothly. Often it's something as simple as a driver update for something that would seem like it's totally unrelated. Just remember to create a System Restore point WITHOUT FAIL before making any changes. Obviously it would be ideal if Cakewalk could write programs that worked on a wide variety of systems, but I think that given the proliferation of different hardware options, the days of highly tolerant programs are behind us. If you want to look on the bright side, dealing with computers is less of a hassle than re-lapping tape heads... I really hope you get your stability issues solved, I know how much those kinds of things can put a speed bump in your creativity. As someone who's done a lot of beta testing in my time, I really sympathize.

Hey Jonbouy,

I can see your point and I think it was very brave of PHeads (they got $50 from me all the same). Having said that (popular cliche these days), different countries and different products. I suppose the buck stops with one person at Cake/Roland and that person must make the decision as best he/she can.

Yeah, there are too many flavors of Sonar I feel. Get back to Reg, Medium and Large and call it a day I reckon. 

I like Expanded very much. My only big compaint is lack of gapless audio. But there are other things too- someone was joking about ProTools and clip gain envelopes and I think Sonar could do the cubase thing and have the envelope changes affect in realtime the visible waveform- like the fadein fadeout diagonals now do. 

Jonbouy - respect due mate, respect due. (I still think you should download the FREE demo though :) )

daryl1968


Jonbouy - respect due mate, respect due. (I still think you should download the FREE demo though :) )

To be fair Daryl, I enjoy my interactions with people like yourself as we may have differing views but you always keep it light hearted and keep out of the personal insults (usually...) too.  There are others here like that as well it's only the few bashers and fanbouys alike that consistently take it too far.

p.s. I have tried the demo as well...

CakeAlexS


For those who think that versions prior to X1 should be supported I suggest you check your warranty expirary date. I repeat again bugs with older versions are irrelevant (i.e. anything older than X1C), you cannot possibly expect Cakewalk to spend resources supporting old software, the job just supporting X1 (4 different versions now) must be massive enough as it is. If you think 8.5 should still be supported just because of your current circumstances (or the fact you were a nice guy in the past) then sorry you are living in cloud cookoo, I have every sympathy but facts are facts.

When it comes CURRENT to bugs and stuff, it's all very well saying "fix 'em" (esp old bugs) but people need to be more specific. It doesn't help (unfortunately) that there is no official online bug database to cross reference to (i.e. acknowledged bugs) so it really is hard to pinpoint (Cakewalk please take note, you need an online knowledge base of known issues so we can point at them). People have different ideas and priorities as to what needs to be fixed.

Just saying....

Cheers...

How many miles did you miss my points by?

Any bugs I specifically refer to still exist in X1, hence I'm so far happily sticking to my 'Final' version of 8.5.

And sorry I don't sympathise with this bit at all.

"You cannot possibly expect Cakewalk to spend resources supporting old software, the job just supporting X1 (4 different versions now) must be massive enough as it is. If you think 8.5 should still be supported just because of your current circumstances (or the fact you were a nice guy in the past) then sorry you are living in cloud cookoo, I have every sympathy but facts are facts."

Cakewalk are a big boy grown up commercial company and they need to realise that they can't expect people long-term to keep forking out for upgrades where existing broken functionality migrates from version to version.  A company has a resposibility of providing top quality reliable product if it wants top quality reliable customers to fund it.  'Poor ol' Cakewalk' will never wash with me no more than it would with any company.  If a company can't realise it's ambitions fully then it ought to either reign in those ambitions toward achievables or expand so it can service those ambitions, expecting your customer base to carry you through your business short-comings, or even just make allowances for them, isn't where the burden should lay.  Those are the REAL facts for anyone in business that wants to sell a merchantable product.  Had X1 been a physical product I suspect many customers would have returned it to the dealer long ago.

Just saying....

Cheers.

p.s I report bugs and feature requests via the proper channels also.

Anderton


Damn, I forgot I shouldn't use Firefox when entering messages...sorry for the never-ending paragraph.

Heh, I was beginning to worry about you for a minute - It's not like you to not use good formatting

Not upgraded to Expanded.  Not sure I will as I haven't seen the need to do so.

I'd be interested if I could have the option of using the old style EQ (Sonitus) in place of ProChannel.  I'd like to be able to work on the same project in both X1 and 8.5 as there are workflow advantages for me in each version that I don't want to give up.

In that sense I would pay for an Expanded version that Contracted a little bit.

Startngo - well said. X1 runs great on my system and has done since X1a. Another point worth making is that my system is used pretty much exclusively for music and therefore anything that may interfere with Sonar is kept away from my system. I realize that some users do not have the luxury of using their computer exclusively for music production but, if you take it seriously or earn money from it, that's what you have to do IMO.

M@ B


My decision to upgrade hinges upon the content of the X1d patch, namely the intermittent ProChannel.

Likewise although my decision hinges on whether V-Vocal works in high RAM use projects and whether Melodyne remains stable long enough to actually use it.
If these don't get fixed then CW get no more of my money.

Speaking of upgrades, etc ... it should be noted that even Expanded has broken some things and now we (those who purchased it) need to wait for CW to "fix" those too.

What a cycle ;)

Jonbouy

I agree that MANY issues can and usually are resolved by adjusting/massaging/correcting/updating one's hardware setup, but there are many many cases where the software needed the fixin'.

Perfectly stated.

And of course the list of issues addressed so far had nothing to do with hardware either, and it is fair to say as a user of several competing products that the chance of a Cakewalk release hitting the ground close to running has been historically far less likely than with other vendors, particularly those with public beta programs in place that are by their very nature likely to highlight issues on differently configured hardware.

+2. You both speak the truth.

Lynn


I have not upgraded to expanded because X1c is running pretty well on my system.  I am able to work for hours at a time without a glitch, and with the included plug ins and third party plugs I am able to pitch correct,  time correct, limit, compress, echo, modulate, reverb, automate, gate, EQ, and pretty much do anything I desire.

I'm not looking for too many more bells and whistles unless CW can write an algorithm that will write song lyrics that are relevant.  Just give me a program that is rock solid on as many systems as possible and compatible with as many third party plug ins as possible.  Perhaps public beta testing is an idea whose time has come.  Consistency is the main thing I ask for from Cakewalk.

If I had to guess as to the most requested feature (just in this thread by itself) - it'd have to be stability.  Over the 8+ years of my involvement with Sonar I think that has been a resounding recurring theme.