TraceyStudios
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 603
- Joined: 2005/10/13 12:40:33
- Location: Chandler, AZ
- Status: offline
Who owns your mix? - SOLVED!
I recently communicated with a mix engineer and was suprised to learn the mixed project files would not be provided as part of the service. Basically, i would just get a wave file of the mixed music only. Is this common practice? If so, what is the logic or reasoning behind this? So if I pay someone to mix, I don't own the mix files? I have been trying to think of any other situation where you would hire someone for a service and you wouldn't own anything which was generated for you to provide that service to you. So I am confused. So who owns the mix files, the customer or the mix engineer? Please note I am not trying to be negative, just wanting to understand
post edited by TraceyStudios - 2013/01/21 14:18:28
AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz 8 Gig RAM SONAR X3 Producer Tascam FW1884 Mackie Blackbird Presonus Digimax Avalon U5 BFD2 SL Trigger Alesis DM8 Pro drums KRK Rokit 8s KRK 10s ARC2 Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :) & lots of help from the forums! http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 21:49:16
(permalink)
I'm not sure I fully understand the question. But that never stopped me in the past. I do the recording, the mixing and provide the finished product on CD or DVD depending on what it is. I do not give away my recorded files or any mixed files unless those are specifically asked for when the commission was granted and agreed to. To me those are work product and not given out.
If on the other hand the party wants another mixer than arrangements can be made but will cost them extra. But in my case I make it clear that I control the mix and the files. They control only the finished product. And not always that either. It depends on what is asked for and how it is to be done. I have the right to decline an offer.
The mixer in your case may look at the work he is doing as his and keeps the unfinished portion. Just as a photographer keeps the negatives. Though, because he did not create the original files I wonder why he thinks they belong to him. If he didn't record them I don't see how he can. Nor should you be asking for the interim mix that he made. After all you still have the original files right? You shouldn't need his submix.
|
guitardood
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 413
- Joined: 2004/08/02 21:12:50
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 21:52:35
(permalink)
Don't know how anyone else feels but I thought mixing was considered a "work-for-hire" type of job and all work product in the completion of said job usually belongs to the customer unless otherwise arranged ahead of time. As an example from the programming world: Customer asks for a program that calculates PI to 200 decimal places, they not only get the finished executable but all "documented" source-code related to the creation of said program, along with any developer notes, flowcharts and documentation.
Not sure of how legal eagles would view this, just my opinion.
Best, Guitardood Reverb Nation: http://www.reverbnation.com/ChuckFletcher "Life is like a box of chocolates. You know, eventually you're going to get the one filled with alien-like nasty tasting goo and have to spit it out and say YUCK"
|
digimidi
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 496
- Joined: 2003/11/15 19:21:08
- Location: Eastern part of the country
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 21:54:51
(permalink)
I'd find me another mix engineer, one who understands what you want. What you are saying is that you want all of the things that were done so that you can open it up in your progam, i.e. Sonar, to see what he did to your mix, etc.?
I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left... http://daveowenmusic.com/http://fabulous52s.com/https://soundcloud.com/daveowenmusic Sonar Platinum Edition/Cakewalk by BandLab: Dell 8700 XPS i7 16GB RAM, Cyberpower laptop w/8GB RAM/i7/2GB NVidia card/Tascam US1641/Focusrite 18i6/Melodyne Studio 4/Waves Plugs (a lot)/Garritan/EWQL Symphony Silver & Fab 4 and a bunch of other stuff. Studio One 3/Magix Samplitude Pro X3 Suite/Mixcraft 8 Pro/Reaper/Acid Pro 8
|
soens
Max Output Level: -23.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5154
- Joined: 2005/09/16 03:19:55
- Location: Location: Location
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 21:58:25
(permalink)
It should all be worked out before anything happens.
Make it all clear up front and in writing if there's a written contract before money changes hands.
Each party should know all the details before starting.
Steve
|
TraceyStudios
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 603
- Joined: 2005/10/13 12:40:33
- Location: Chandler, AZ
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:00:19
(permalink)
Let me clarify, I would get all the tracks back that I sent him, plus the mastered wav file. However I would not get the project file which has the final eq's, automation etc. Why does that not belong to me? What is the purpose you would keep this project file? All materials should be copywrited by me (the customer). If I hired a photographer to take pictures of my wedding, I should get the negatives also, those are the pictures I paid for. If I choose to make additional copies, I shouldn't have to go to that photographer for those negatives to make additional copies. What purpose does a photographer keep the negatives? I am inclined to think that, they think, it will force the customer to use them and limit their options. As far as a mix goes, lets say metallica pays someone to mix, they don't own and have control of the mix files?
AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz 8 Gig RAM SONAR X3 Producer Tascam FW1884 Mackie Blackbird Presonus Digimax Avalon U5 BFD2 SL Trigger Alesis DM8 Pro drums KRK Rokit 8s KRK 10s ARC2 Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :) & lots of help from the forums! http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
|
TraceyStudios
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 603
- Joined: 2005/10/13 12:40:33
- Location: Chandler, AZ
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:03:58
(permalink)
i had asked that questions, would I get the mix files, and was told no. John posted above, says he doesn't provide those files either. If I am the customer, those files would not ever have existed without me, and they only exist because I am paying for them to be created in order to produce the final product, the mixed audio file, therefore I feel they should be provided to me upon completion and full payment has been received!
AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz 8 Gig RAM SONAR X3 Producer Tascam FW1884 Mackie Blackbird Presonus Digimax Avalon U5 BFD2 SL Trigger Alesis DM8 Pro drums KRK Rokit 8s KRK 10s ARC2 Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :) & lots of help from the forums! http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
|
StepD
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 594
- Joined: 2003/11/08 01:03:52
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:11:01
(permalink)
The mixer probably considers the processes he used to get to the final product his property, not the actual music. Using the photographer analogy, you get the photos and negatives, but you don't get information about what lense the photographer used, camera settings, lighting, etc.
Core2 6600 2.40 GHz, ASUS P5B Deluxe, 8GB RAM, GeForce GT 630 2GB, 3 Seagate Sata, Echo AudioFire 4 asio, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab
|
TraceyStudios
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 603
- Joined: 2005/10/13 12:40:33
- Location: Chandler, AZ
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:16:52
(permalink)
Still don't understand the purpose of the mix engineer owning the mix? Why? what can they do with it?
AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz 8 Gig RAM SONAR X3 Producer Tascam FW1884 Mackie Blackbird Presonus Digimax Avalon U5 BFD2 SL Trigger Alesis DM8 Pro drums KRK Rokit 8s KRK 10s ARC2 Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :) & lots of help from the forums! http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
|
jimkleban
Max Output Level: -64 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1319
- Joined: 2008/11/09 09:42:45
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:18:22
(permalink)
I agree, it needs to be worked out before hand because of folks who think that mixing a project gives them intellectual rights of the original raw material. In the old days, the mixer/engineer was simply hired guns paid for by the band or their management. They were like roadies and light men, paid to do a job.
Next thing, roadies are going to want the rights for photos taken of a band performing live.....
This is killing me, making the music is the art, the rest of you are like leeches, trying to squeeze every penny out of artists.
Sorry to come on so strong but this has been going on too long. All of a sudden, engineers are the rock stars. Grant you, there are some engineers who deserve the lime light but look through the magazines and their are all kind of guys (most of whom I have never heard of) being paid to be endorsers of this gear or this mic.
This guy and his band should own all of the tracks, raw, stems, final mixes, etc. They made the music and they paid for the service.
Jim
The Lamb Laid Down on MIDI www.lldom.com Studio Cat Custom i7 with Thunderbolt (wonderful system built and configured by our own Jim R) Apollo Duo (via TB) UAD Quad UAD Duo WIN 8.1 x64 with 32 GB Ram 4 SSD for programs and sample libraries Splat (latest version)
|
riojazz
Max Output Level: -64 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1337
- Joined: 2004/02/26 13:23:02
- Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:22:18
(permalink)
One reason the mixing engineer might keep the mix files is that you may want to go back for a different variation. For example, after mixing my CD, I went back to get music-minus-one mixes (some of my colleagues call these TV mixes, as in perform on TV to your own backing tracks). It wasn't just a case of taking my part out; we remixed with several changes. I had alternate mixes made with and without other players who might appear with me. It was far easier to modify the existing mixes than start over, yet this still required additional time for the mixing engineer for which he should be compensated.
Software: Cakewalk by Bandlab; Adobe Audition; Band-in-A-Box audiophile; Izotope Ozone; Encore; Melodyne; Win 10 Pro, 64-bit. Hardware: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd; Roland Integra-7; TCE Finalizer; Presonus Central Station, Behringer X-Touch. Home built i7 with 16 GB RAM, SSDs.
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:24:59
(permalink)
I would hazard a guess that the mix engineer has certain methods and techniques that he or she considers "secret." It may be that they have a trademark sound and that they don't want anyone taking a look at how they did it. After all, you may be able to get enough clues about their methods and techniques and any "magic" that they use, that you would possibly consider having a crack at it yourself the next time instead of hiring him.
The closest analogy I can think of would be when you hire a professional digital photographer. What you get at the end of it is a disc containing the finished flattened images. What you don't get is a disc full of Photoshop files which show all of the layers, masks and settings that they used to work their magic. They don't consider their techniques to be "open source," and so that stuff stays with them.
I don't think it's that unreasonable to be honest, although it's probably something that you would need to discuss with them beforehand. If you would prefer to have the mix files, then find an engineer who doesn't mind releasing them.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
StepD
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 594
- Joined: 2003/11/08 01:03:52
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:30:44
(permalink)
"I would hazard a guess that the mix engineer has certain methods and techniques that he or she considers "secret." It may be that they have a trademark sound and that they don't want anyone taking a look at how they did it."
Exactly.
Core2 6600 2.40 GHz, ASUS P5B Deluxe, 8GB RAM, GeForce GT 630 2GB, 3 Seagate Sata, Echo AudioFire 4 asio, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab
|
wynnsong
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 504
- Joined: 2003/11/05 17:57:42
- Location: Los Angeles
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:46:09
(permalink)
Most mixers I know would not just give me a stereo mix and that's it (of course that may depend on how much you paid). At bare minimum my mixes would include stems, which take more time and I pay for his time...
Sounds a bit petty to me. Again that's without knowing much of the story...
X3c i7 930 12 core 3.20ghz Win 7 64bit 64 gigs RAM UA Apollo quad
|
elijahlucian
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 445
- Joined: 2010/01/09 20:17:21
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:54:28
(permalink)
just pay him for his time to give you the files.
money has a way of clearing up misunderstandings XD
|
digimidi
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 496
- Joined: 2003/11/15 19:21:08
- Location: Eastern part of the country
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 22:55:43
(permalink)
Using the photographer analogy again, I know from my personal experience that they usually keep the negatives in order to cultivate you coming back for more prints, enlargements, etc. When I shot weddings "on a budget", I always gave them the negatives, and then when it went digital, I gave them a DVD of all of the raw files that I shot, but I kept a safety copy at home.
I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left... http://daveowenmusic.com/http://fabulous52s.com/https://soundcloud.com/daveowenmusic Sonar Platinum Edition/Cakewalk by BandLab: Dell 8700 XPS i7 16GB RAM, Cyberpower laptop w/8GB RAM/i7/2GB NVidia card/Tascam US1641/Focusrite 18i6/Melodyne Studio 4/Waves Plugs (a lot)/Garritan/EWQL Symphony Silver & Fab 4 and a bunch of other stuff. Studio One 3/Magix Samplitude Pro X3 Suite/Mixcraft 8 Pro/Reaper/Acid Pro 8
|
TraceyStudios
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 603
- Joined: 2005/10/13 12:40:33
- Location: Chandler, AZ
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 23:08:42
(permalink)
riojazz
One reason the mixing engineer might keep the mix files is that you may want to go back for a different variation. For example, after mixing my CD, I went back to get music-minus-one mixes (some of my colleagues call these TV mixes, as in perform on TV to your own backing tracks). It wasn't just a case of taking my part out; we remixed with several changes. I had alternate mixes made with and without other players who might appear with me. It was far easier to modify the existing mixes than start over, yet this still required additional time for the mixing engineer for which he should be compensated.
Sure, if you had the mix files, you are not required to go back that engineer and pay him. If you chose to, then you could, but not required to. If you don't have them, what choice do you have?
AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz 8 Gig RAM SONAR X3 Producer Tascam FW1884 Mackie Blackbird Presonus Digimax Avalon U5 BFD2 SL Trigger Alesis DM8 Pro drums KRK Rokit 8s KRK 10s ARC2 Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :) & lots of help from the forums! http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
|
TraceyStudios
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 603
- Joined: 2005/10/13 12:40:33
- Location: Chandler, AZ
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 23:13:01
(permalink)
sharke
I would hazard a guess that the mix engineer has certain methods and techniques that he or she considers "secret." It may be that they have a trademark sound and that they don't want anyone taking a look at how they did it. After all, you may be able to get enough clues about their methods and techniques and any "magic" that they use, that you would possibly consider having a crack at it yourself the next time instead of hiring him.
The closest analogy I can think of would be when you hire a professional digital photographer. What you get at the end of it is a disc containing the finished flattened images. What you don't get is a disc full of Photoshop files which show all of the layers, masks and settings that they used to work their magic. They don't consider their techniques to be "open source," and so that stuff stays with them.
I don't think it's that unreasonable to be honest, although it's probably something that you would need to discuss with them beforehand. If you would prefer to have the mix files, then find an engineer who doesn't mind releasing them.
If I asked a photographer to take pictures and digitally manupulate them, I would expect all the photoshop files also. If I need to edit them or change them or need to send in a differrent format, whatever. They would never have existed if I didn't pay for them to be created. Mixes are no differrent! I paid to have the guitars eq'd, the bass eq'd, automation etc. Why would I not get that back also. If I ever need or want to change them, I would have it. Again, it would never have existed if I hadn't paid for the guy to do it!
AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz 8 Gig RAM SONAR X3 Producer Tascam FW1884 Mackie Blackbird Presonus Digimax Avalon U5 BFD2 SL Trigger Alesis DM8 Pro drums KRK Rokit 8s KRK 10s ARC2 Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :) & lots of help from the forums! http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
|
TraceyStudios
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 603
- Joined: 2005/10/13 12:40:33
- Location: Chandler, AZ
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 23:17:53
(permalink)
When an mix engineer advertises their services within this forum, what would make them think that whatever they were paid to do, that I would not want to see what they did or how they did it when I paid for it?! And why EXACTLY would this be unreasonable???? I don't have any issues paying for someone to mix, or pay for help. But I do have issues paying for a "secret". Especially at the prices I was quoted. Bottom line, I will only hire someone to mix with the expectation of getting the mix files. Its not unreasonable. BTW, the person I communicated with was very nice, I'm sure they do a great job. In fact they have answered many of my posts and have been very helpful. I am not angry or upset, just don't understand this part. :) I'm done with my rant. LOL. Thanks all!! :)
post edited by TraceyStudios - 2013/01/20 23:33:21
AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz 8 Gig RAM SONAR X3 Producer Tascam FW1884 Mackie Blackbird Presonus Digimax Avalon U5 BFD2 SL Trigger Alesis DM8 Pro drums KRK Rokit 8s KRK 10s ARC2 Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :) & lots of help from the forums! http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
|
StepD
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 594
- Joined: 2003/11/08 01:03:52
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 23:30:15
(permalink)
"Bottom line, I will only hire someone to mix with the expectation of getting the mix files. Its not unreasonable."
Yep, get it writing from now on.
Core2 6600 2.40 GHz, ASUS P5B Deluxe, 8GB RAM, GeForce GT 630 2GB, 3 Seagate Sata, Echo AudioFire 4 asio, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab
|
TraceyStudios
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 603
- Joined: 2005/10/13 12:40:33
- Location: Chandler, AZ
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 23:35:26
(permalink)
FYI, the mix never happened, the deal breaker was this detail.
AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz 8 Gig RAM SONAR X3 Producer Tascam FW1884 Mackie Blackbird Presonus Digimax Avalon U5 BFD2 SL Trigger Alesis DM8 Pro drums KRK Rokit 8s KRK 10s ARC2 Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :) & lots of help from the forums! http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 23:36:45
(permalink)
TraceyStudios
When an mix engineer advertises their services within this forum, what would make them think that whatever they were paid to do, that I would not want to see what they did or how they did it when I paid for it?! And why EXACTLY would this be unreasonable???? I don't have any issues paying for someone to mix, or pay for help. But I do have issues paying for a "secret". Especially at the prices I was quoted.
I'm done with my rant. LOL. Bottom line, I will only hire someone to mix with the expectation of getting the mix files. Its not unreasonable.
Thanks all!! :)
What would the "mix" files be? I'm not too clear on this. I don't see anything wrong for a mixer to not tell how a mix was done either. To me if one wants to know how than they need to take a class.
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 23:49:00
(permalink)
TraceyStudios
sharke
I would hazard a guess that the mix engineer has certain methods and techniques that he or she considers "secret." It may be that they have a trademark sound and that they don't want anyone taking a look at how they did it. After all, you may be able to get enough clues about their methods and techniques and any "magic" that they use, that you would possibly consider having a crack at it yourself the next time instead of hiring him.
The closest analogy I can think of would be when you hire a professional digital photographer. What you get at the end of it is a disc containing the finished flattened images. What you don't get is a disc full of Photoshop files which show all of the layers, masks and settings that they used to work their magic. They don't consider their techniques to be "open source," and so that stuff stays with them.
I don't think it's that unreasonable to be honest, although it's probably something that you would need to discuss with them beforehand. If you would prefer to have the mix files, then find an engineer who doesn't mind releasing them.
If I asked a photographer to take pictures and digitally manupulate them, I would expect all the photoshop files also. If I need to edit them or change them or need to send in a differrent format, whatever. They would never have existed if I didn't pay for them to be created. Mixes are no differrent! I paid to have the guitars eq'd, the bass eq'd, automation etc. Why would I not get that back also. If I ever need or want to change them, I would have it. Again, it would never have existed if I hadn't paid for the guy to do it!
You could ask for them, but I know many photographers wouldn't give them to you. You are paying for a finished product - the "final mix." You are not paying for any intermediate files, unless of course you're dealing with an artist who specifically promises that. Why should they reveal to you their trademark photography or mixing secrets? You aren't paying for a mixing tutorial, or to find out what plugs the engineer uses in what order, or what filters or other "tricks" the photographer uses. The Photoshop files, or mixing files, are not part of the finished product. They're just part of the intermediate stages. With mixing, the deal is this: you give them the raw material, they give you a finished product back. It's like taking your dog to be groomed. Again, what you "expect" and what the craftsman is offering are sometimes two different things. There is certainly no legal obligation for them to provide you with the tools that they used. Think of the mix files as a "scaffold" around your song. If you paid someone to do work on the exterior of your house, and they erected scaffolding around it, they're going to take that scaffolding away once the job's done. It isn't "yours."
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/20 23:55:20
(permalink)
I completely agree with Sharke.
|
TraceyStudios
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 603
- Joined: 2005/10/13 12:40:33
- Location: Chandler, AZ
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/21 00:00:36
(permalink)
What would the "mix" files be? I'm not too clear on this. I don't see anything wrong for a mixer to not tell how a mix was done either. To me if one wants to know how than they need to take a class.
Are you a mix engineer? I'm guessing you are. You don't want anyone to know how you did anything, good for you! I thought this forum was about learning and figuring out how to do these things, not quite the same as taking a class. do you agree? so if someone advertises their services (mixing) within this forum, if a member of this forum (remember the forum is about learning this stuff? Yes? No?) hires that person whom advertised their services in this forum, and pays that person to mix their song, is it unreasonable or suprising that the customer would like to see what and how the mix was done. Is there any signifigance to the fact that this is a forum which discusses recording, mixing, mastering via Sonar? So if I paid for a mix and asked to see the file so I could see how it was done, and was told to "take a class"...well I guess I would not do anymore business with that mix engineer. LOL. So is that how you reply to posts? "Take a class"?
AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz 8 Gig RAM SONAR X3 Producer Tascam FW1884 Mackie Blackbird Presonus Digimax Avalon U5 BFD2 SL Trigger Alesis DM8 Pro drums KRK Rokit 8s KRK 10s ARC2 Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :) & lots of help from the forums! http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/21 00:02:23
(permalink)
Also, what real use would the mix file be to you? You're unlikely to have all of the plugs that the engineer used on it. You're going to load the file and Sonar is going to say "the following plugs are missing...."
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
TraceyStudios
Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
- Total Posts : 603
- Joined: 2005/10/13 12:40:33
- Location: Chandler, AZ
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/21 00:08:44
(permalink)
sharke
Also, what real use would the mix file be to you? You're unlikely to have all of the plugs that the engineer used on it. You're going to load the file and Sonar is going to say "the following plugs are missing...."
So if I don't have all the plugins, I don't deserve to have this file? Could I buy the plugins? would another mix engineer have said plugins?
AMD FX-6100 six-core processor 3.3GHz 8 Gig RAM SONAR X3 Producer Tascam FW1884 Mackie Blackbird Presonus Digimax Avalon U5 BFD2 SL Trigger Alesis DM8 Pro drums KRK Rokit 8s KRK 10s ARC2 Folgers Dark Roast, a bit of crazy :) & lots of help from the forums! http://www.reverbnation.com/blakkmire
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/21 00:13:27
(permalink)
TraceyStudios
What would the "mix" files be? I'm not too clear on this. I don't see anything wrong for a mixer to not tell how a mix was done either. To me if one wants to know how than they need to take a class.
Are you a mix engineer? I'm guessing you are. You don't want anyone to know how you did anything, good for you! I thought this forum was about learning and figuring out how to do these things, not quite the same as taking a class. do you agree? so if someone advertises their services (mixing) within this forum, if a member of this forum (remember the forum is about learning this stuff? Yes? No?) hires that person whom advertised their services in this forum, and pays that person to mix their song, is it unreasonable or suprising that the customer would like to see what and how the mix was done. Is there any signifigance to the fact that this is a forum which discusses recording, mixing, mastering via Sonar? So if I paid for a mix and asked to see the file so I could see how it was done, and was told to "take a class"...well I guess I would not do anymore business with that mix engineer. LOL. So is that how you reply to posts? "Take a class"?
I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Just because someone advertises their mixing services on a help forum, does not mean that there is a general understanding that their mixing services include some kind of "tutorial."
I understand why you're upset here on one level: the person you spoke to doesn't offer the service that you want. Sometimes it's hard to understand why a business operates the way it does until you've been in that business yourself. I used to get annoyed that Time Warner Cable could only offer me large time windows to send an engineer to fix my internet, until I started an appointment based service business myself, and then I understood how hard it is to give people exact times when you don't know how long the previous appointments are going to take.
I don't offer that as some kind of parallel or analogy to the mixing business, I'm just saying that sometimes a business has very good reasons why they can't offer exactly what you're asking for. Sometimes they have policies in place that have a history behind them. In my business, I also have policies. I have employees who provide an ongoing service to clients on a daily basis. One of my policies is that I don't give the client my employee's cellphone number. I have very good reasons for that, which have a history behind them. Oftentimes I will get a client who goes crazy when I tell them this. They really don't get why I have to have such a policy, because they feel entitled to have my employee's full contact details. When I try to explain to them the reasons why, sometimes they understand, sometimes they don't. At the end of the day, they are free to give me the notice to get out of their service contract and look for another service. But then they quickly find that most of my competitors have the same policy. I think my speculations as to the reasons for the mixing engineer's policies are quite reasonable, although perhaps someone in the business might be able to furnish us with a different perspective.
post edited by sharke - 2013/01/21 00:25:49
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/21 00:15:50
(permalink)
TraceyStudios
What would the "mix" files be? I'm not too clear on this. I don't see anything wrong for a mixer to not tell how a mix was done either. To me if one wants to know how than they need to take a class.
Are you a mix engineer? I'm guessing you are. You don't want anyone to know how you did anything, good for you! I thought this forum was about learning and figuring out how to do these things, not quite the same as taking a class. do you agree? so if someone advertises their services (mixing) within this forum, if a member of this forum (remember the forum is about learning this stuff? Yes? No?) hires that person whom advertised their services in this forum, and pays that person to mix their song, is it unreasonable or suprising that the customer would like to see what and how the mix was done. Is there any signifigance to the fact that this is a forum which discusses recording, mixing, mastering via Sonar? So if I paid for a mix and asked to see the file so I could see how it was done, and was told to "take a class"...well I guess I would not do anymore business with that mix engineer. LOL. So is that how you reply to posts? "Take a class"?
I think you may be asking a little too much. Its one thing to help people with Sonar and quite another to teach mixing. Tips and best practice are often offered but teaching all about mixing is way more than this forum is setup for. Also it is up to the individual as to how much they wish to give out. We have no right to demand that a member here teach us all their techniques. If they wish to tell us fine if not also its fine. If one contracts with a member for doing a job and the job was done well that is as far as it should go. Jim often offers help here that does not obligate him to spill all his knowledge about how he builds a computer. Good mixing is an art and those that do a great job mixing should be treated as artists too.
|
slartabartfast
Max Output Level: -22.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5289
- Joined: 2005/10/30 01:38:34
- Status: offline
Re:Who owns your mix?
2013/01/21 00:18:01
(permalink)
I would not get the project file which has the final eq's, automation etc. Why does that not belong to me? Arguably it belongs to the person who created it. You created the original tracks, so they clearly belong to you, but any work he did to modify those tracks is his original work. He can't create his work without your permission as it is a derivative work of your original tracks. But you can't use his work without his permission, since the processing he did creates a valuable new sound (or you would not pay him to do it). The nature of the relationship probably gives you the right (implied license) to publish his final mastered version, but if you really wanted to be sure that you could produce a record or upload the finished product etc. without his permission, you might want to get a written statement to that effect in your contract with him. Even better would be a contract that specifically states that he is doing his modifications to your tracks as a "work for hire." If the written contract uses those exact words, and is signed before he commences any work on the project, then he would have no ownership in the project at all. You cannot claim a work for hire under an implied or oral contract. But even given that the final product is a work for hire, there is some ambiguity as to who owns the intermediate product, i.e. the files that contain his tweaks. I have seen quite a few consulting contracts that specify not only that the final product (report etc.) belongs to the client as a work for hire, but that any and all notes, recordings, communications in writing or orally etc. etc. related to the project belong to the client. Without such language, the consultant could argue that he is only being hired to create a final report, and that other potentially valuable work produced as part of the project, but not included in the final product, was his property. This is a slightly different issue than the case of the wedding photographer, who creates his photos from whole cloth as it were. Absent a "work for hire" clause, the photographer is the sole artist/creator, and owns the right to make any copies of his photographs under copyright. Many pro photographers will enforce their copyright and charge you for extra prints. He would even have the right to stop you from making color xerox copies of the wedding photos you have already bought, or uploading them to a file sharing site, unless such permission is granted in your agreement with him. Although there is no derivative work issue here, the rights of the creator of a derivative work are similarly protected.
|