Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum?

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Beepster
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2015/03/06 15:58:59 (permalink)

Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum?

Edit: It's not DC Offset but something else is going on with the signal from the amp... so not "solved" but not offset.
 
So after much exploring, dinking around and general procrastinating I just recorded my first track into Sonar platinum. The wave is looking mighty funky and I think this is referred to as DC Offset. I have never encountered it before... ever.
 
Essentially the top half of my mono wave looks like it has been compressed/limited very agressively while the bottom half looks more dynamic and normal but extends down way further than the top. Essentially it looks really unbalanced.
 
It sounds fine... awesome in fact but this is not normal so I'm wondering if maybe there has been some change in Platinum that might draw the waves differently (doubt it) or what I should be looking at/concerned about.
 
I know this seems to be a symptom of "DC Offset" but because I have never encountered it and I'm not sure what to do about it (or if I should do anythign about since it sounds fine). I know there is a setting somewhere that corrects this type of thing but it is weird this has happened and I'd like to figure out what could be causing it.
 
 
Details:
 
The signal is a cleanish guitar output from the XLR line out from my old Traynor amp going into my Mackie CR1601 then being routed via the mixer's direct out for that channel into my Scarlett Focusrite 18i6 via one of the 1/4" line inputs on the back. In Sonar the input is set to a mono input (Right Focusrite Line 3 which is the mono input on the device). Aside from the amp and mixer there are no other input effects but there is an instance of TH2 on the track but that should not affect the wave.
 
Just looking for ideas as to what could be causing this and I guess quickly get some directions/instruction as to where the DC Offset thingie may be and the appropriate way to apply it (I do not want to screw up my general settings).
 
I have used this set up before and never encountered this. It is very strange.
 
Thanks.
post edited by Beepster - 2015/03/06 17:10:11
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    scook
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:02:26 (permalink)
    If it is DC Offset see http://www.cakewalk.com/D...=EditingAudio.22.html#
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    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:06:15 (permalink)
    Thanks.
     
    Now this is something even stranger... I just did another test to and watched as it was recording. The incoming wave looked totally normal while recording (it was balanced, no squishyness at the top). It was only when I stopped recording and Sonar redrew the wave (or whatever it does) that it went out of whack.
     
    Very strange.
    #3
    OldTimerNewComer
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:07:32 (permalink)
    Before destructively changing anything Beep,
    I would suggest deleting your picture cache...
    If you say it sounds fine it might just be a
    graphics issue.
     
    Mel 

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    dubdisciple
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:09:01 (permalink)
    As an FYI, DC offset is a hardware Issue and to my knowledge is not produced by DAW. The fact that it started now is likely a coincidence. If it is DC offset, the link scook provided should help. 
    #5
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:11:38 (permalink)
    Could you try going from the XLR straight into the Focusrite?
     
    Eliminate the desk.
     
    If it's the same, try a DI, eliminate the amp.
     
    Just tossing out random thoughts here Beep. I haven't seen DC offset for a very long time.

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    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:12:05 (permalink)
    scook
    If it is DC Offset see http://www.cakewalk.com/D...=EditingAudio.22.html#




    From the link...
     
    "An easy way to spot DC offset is to zoom in to a silent section of your sound file. If the silent waveform matches the centerline in the waveform display, your file does not contain DC offset."
     
    In the silence at the start before I started playing it is indeed on the center line so I guess this is not DC Offset.
     
    Now I am even more confused. I guess if it sounds good I shouldn't freak out but this is quite bizarre.
    #7
    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:19:46 (permalink)
    @OldTimer, Dub and Jonesey....
     
    Thanks, I will try some stuff. Since I don't really understand exactly how waves work what exactly does the top part of the wave represent? I thought the cycles produced on either side of the zero line were... well just the amplitude or whatever. Could the amp/mixer be yanking something out like for example a frequency?
     
    As I said the wave looks normal until I stop recording which is why I though maybe it's a graphical issue rather than an input issue.
     
    Off to find the redraw function (been a looong time since I've looked at that thing).
     
    Thanks again.
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    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:26:11 (permalink)
    Redraw didn't change anything but just in case anyone stumbles on this searching for that function...
     
    To redraw waveforms

    1.Select the clips that you want to redraw.

    2. Right-click a selected clip, and choose Associated Audio Files on the pop-up menu to open the Associated Audio Files dialog box.

    3.Click the Recompute Picture(s) button. A dialog box appears, asking if you want to recompute the pictures on the selected clips.

    4.Click OK.
     
    From here....
     
    https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X3&language=3&help=AudioPerformance.24.html
     
    Off to try going from the amp into the interface.
    #9
    Anderton
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:29:56 (permalink)
    Asymmetrical distortion is not at all rare with guitar amps, even solid-state ones but particularly with tubes. If the output stage is push-pull, then one of the tube pair could be "soft." 
     
    For DC offset to be present, the waveform's centerline needs to be off zero. Asymmetrical clipping could be the result of severe DC offset, or it could be due to any one of a number of different causes. I recommend this article if you want to know about DC offset, why it matters, and what can make it appear. 
     
     

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    Splat
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:31:27 (permalink)
    I suggest you should use a loopback latency utility app away from Sonar to test it. You then enter the offset into Sonar and test again with just Sonar, and then the waves should match perfectly.
     
    I'm having a senior moment, I've forgotten what the utility is caused.

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    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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    Splat
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:33:35 (permalink)
    I remembered:
    http://www.oblique-audio.com/free/rtlutility
     

    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
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    OldTimerNewComer
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:33:52 (permalink)
    Sorry that did not work... now I'm puzzled too.
    You say you CAN'T tie the start of this behaviour
    to an event(windows update, etc.)?
    Can you provide an image of the wave?
     
    Mel

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    #13
    lfm
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:35:27 (permalink)
    Is it possible it's a clean redraw thingy - if having maybe 125% scaling on you system or something?
     
    Haven't they updated some stuff to support scaling in Windows 8 and touch gestures etc?
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    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:40:20 (permalink)
    Seems to be from the amp.
     
    Test results:
     
    (Already reported) Amp XLR Out + Mixer + Focusrite Line In = Wonky Wave
    Amp XLR Out + Focusrite Multi In = Wonky Wave
    Directly into Focusrite Multi In (Inst setting) = Normal Wave
     
    This is quite strange because I have recorded this way before and didn't notice anything (on the CHC "Karyn's Got A Gun" I used this set up for the clean guits).
     
    Thing is it sounds freaking AWESOME coming from the amp (the multi in DI sounds... well okay but it's DI which is why I'm using the amp). That wave is just freaking me out.
     
    I guess at this point all I need to know is... how can this screw me up later on? It really does sound great so I am loathe to change anything.
     
    Thanks for all the help guys. Gonna go back and read the recent posts.
     
    This place is awesome.
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    Anderton
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:42:43 (permalink)
    Beepster
    Seems to be from the amp.
     



    http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3187066

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    OldTimerNewComer
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:51:42 (permalink)
    Beepster
    cleanish guitar output from the XLR line out from my old Traynor amp going into my Mackie CR1601 then being routed via the mixer's direct out for that channel into my Scarlett Focusrite 18i6 via one of the 1/4" line inputs on the back. In Sonar the input is set to a mono input (Right Focusrite Line 3 which is the mono input on the device).



    After some thought I believe Dubdisciple is right.
    Perhaps you have an unbalanced(1/4in.) output from the Mackie
    you could try then compare the waveforms...
    check to see if more than one buss from the Mackie is going to
    your direct out;
     
    more than one signal, summed to mono, WITH
    dc offset could probably alter your input  to Scarlett
    in the manner you describe(squashed tops).
     
    Mel
     
    Beepster 
     Seems to be from the amp.

     
    Edit:I see that you are already on that trail... good job.
    (Bloddy two-finger typing)
    post edited by OldTimerNewComer - 2015/03/06 17:01:46

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    #17
    ampfixer
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:54:16 (permalink)
    What Craig said Beeps. You have to allow for the fact that Sonar may be just fine and it's clearly reproducing a strange output waveform from the amp. If only the guitar amp shows this anomaly, it's probably in the amp, and probably a funky output tube. Try recording something else to eliminate everything but the amp as a cause.
     
    If it's the amp I can send you some used but good tubes for free. It could also be a bad component but that's another story.

    Regards, John 
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    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:55:10 (permalink)
    Anderton
    Beepster
    Seems to be from the amp.
     



    http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3187066





    Heheh... yup. I saw it but wanted to get the test results posted.
     
    Thank you for the term "assymetrical distortion". It gives me something to research. Before I blather on I will ask this...
     
    Is this going to cause me some unforeseen headaches down the road? If not I will ignore it because it sounds good.
     
    Now to the blathering. This is not a "distorted" signal but the top part does indeed look like it is being run through a stomp box or something. The bottom half looks like the clean signal it is.
     
    This is a solid state amp but a reeeeally old one (like late 60's/early 70's). It's a Traynor TS-140 if that means anything to you and it's a really nice amp. The XLR out is supposed to feed a board for live and studio applications but perhaps it's from before standards were really hammered out for that type of thing (IDK... I was even a spermulite until many moons after this thing was built). As I said I am running a clean signal but obviously the pre-amp is adding something (which I want) and there are two EQ sections (a 5 band graphic EQ and the usual T/M/B knobs). I have sweetened the sound a bit using those EQ's so maybe that's what's going on but I haven't really changed anything since the last project I used it. Maybe I should check those waves to see if it's the same deal.
     
    Anyhoo... if this is normal and isn't going to be an arsehole down the road I won't get weird about it. Just took me off guard. It's really hitting the sim nicely. Sounds awesome for bass too (which I tried the other day for the first time).
     
    Cheers.
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    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 16:58:12 (permalink)
    ampfixer
    What Craig said Beeps. You have to allow for the fact that Sonar may be just fine and it's clearly reproducing a strange output waveform from the amp. If only the guitar amp shows this anomaly, it's probably in the amp, and probably a funky output tube. Try recording something else to eliminate everything but the amp as a cause.
     
    If it's the amp I can send you some used but good tubes for free. It could also be a bad component but that's another story.




    Very generous, my friend and thank you. It's a solid state (TS-140 which you are likely familiar with) so no tubes needed. Glad you popped in. If anyone knows what might be going on with this amp it's you. Heck... you may have even worked on the darned thing at some point in its life. lol
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    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 17:01:27 (permalink)
    dubdisciple
    As an FYI, DC offset is a hardware Issue and to my knowledge is not produced by DAW. The fact that it started now is likely a coincidence. If it is DC offset, the link scook provided should help. 




    Hiya, Dub. I figured it was likely a hardware thing but was skeeved on the concept of DC Offset. Never had to deal with it before and it does not seem to be the case here but this is all very educational. Thanks and I hoep you've been well.
     
    Cheers.
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    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 17:03:59 (permalink)
    OldTimerNewComer
    Beepster
    cleanish guitar output from the XLR line out from my old Traynor amp going into my Mackie CR1601 then being routed via the mixer's direct out for that channel into my Scarlett Focusrite 18i6 via one of the 1/4" line inputs on the back. In Sonar the input is set to a mono input (Right Focusrite Line 3 which is the mono input on the device).



    After some thought I believe Dubdisciple is right.
    Perhaps you have an unbalanced(1/4in.) output from the Mackie
    you could try then compare the waveforms...
    check to see if more than one buss from the Mackie is going to
    your direct out;
     
    more than one signal, summed to mono, WITH
    dc offset could probably alter your input  to Scarlett
    in the manner you describe(squashed tops).
     
    Mel
     
    Beepster 
     Seems to be from the amp.

     
    Edit:I see that you are already on that trail... good job.
    (Bloddy two-finger typing)




    This brings up an interesting point...
     
    Could this perhaps be an issue with my XLR cable? I used the same cable for these tests.
    #22
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 17:09:14 (permalink)
    Possibly.
     
    Can you try hanging a mic in front of the amp and record that?

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    OldTimerNewComer
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 17:17:19 (permalink)
    Beepster
    OldTimerNewComer
    Beepster
    cleanish guitar output from the XLR line out from my old Traynor amp going into my Mackie CR1601 then being routed via the mixer's direct out for that channel into my Scarlett Focusrite 18i6 via one of the 1/4" line inputs on the back. In Sonar the input is set to a mono input (Right Focusrite Line 3 which is the mono input on the device).



    After some thought I believe Dubdisciple is right.
    Perhaps you have an unbalanced(1/4in.) output from the Mackie
    you could try then compare the waveforms...
    check to see if more than one buss from the Mackie is going to
    your direct out;
     
    more than one signal, summed to mono, WITH
    dc offset could probably alter your input  to Scarlett
    in the manner you describe(squashed tops).
     
    Mel
     
    Beepster 
     Seems to be from the amp.

     
    Edit:I see that you are already on that trail... good job.
    (Bloddy two-finger typing)




    This brings up an interesting point...
     
    Could this perhaps be an issue with my XLR cable? I used the same cable for these tests.


    That was going to be my next suggestion, occurred to me
    earlier but I wanted to work backward from Sonar .

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    #24
    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 17:17:42 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey
    Possibly.
     
    Can you try hanging a mic in front of the amp and record that?





    I just swapped the cable and used a different channel on the mixer (and input on the interface because I already had that routed from that channel). Ain't the cable. Definitely looking like the amp at this point.
     
    It does seem very strange that the wave looks normal during recording and this "asymmetrical" wave only appears after the fact.
     
    Oh and I can't turn this thing up at all for micing. Bad soundproofing in this place and I don't want to attract ANY attention in this heckhole of a building.
    #25
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 17:22:54 (permalink)
    Good point.

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    #26
    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 17:25:51 (permalink)
    aaand I think I may have discovered a Platinum Comping bug while doing this but I'll have to test it out more.
     
    Just deleted a new take lane with a clip segment in it. After it was gone that section of the original clip remained split and muted (expected behavior would be that that muted section gets re-promoted/the split would heal after the other clip was gone).
    #27
    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 17:30:54 (permalink)
    Anyway... unless anyone can give me a reason why this wonky wave is problematic I'm just going to chalk it up to the amp's "color" and not worry about it and keep tracking. I'll also study up on asymmetrical waves to see what the dillio is.
     
    Thanks for all the replies. I'm still confused but a little smarter now (I think).
     
    ;-)
     
    Cheers.
    #28
    rcklln
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 17:41:44 (permalink)
    "Essentially the top half of my mono wave looks like it has been compressed/limited very agressively while the bottom half looks more dynamic and normal but extends down way further than the top. Essentially it looks really unbalanced."
     
    I noticed this also when I was trying to set levels for tracking. Guitar was plugged directly into audio interface.
    #29
    Beepster
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    Re: Whooooa... that don't look right. DC Offset in Sonar Platinum? 2015/03/06 18:03:42 (permalink)
    rcklln
    "Essentially the top half of my mono wave looks like it has been compressed/limited very agressively while the bottom half looks more dynamic and normal but extends down way further than the top. Essentially it looks really unbalanced."
     
    I noticed this also when I was trying to set levels for tracking. Guitar was plugged directly into audio interface.





    I just did a test in X3 using the same set up and in an earlier (but very recent) version of this project and I still had the "offset/asymmetry".
     
    So this does not seem to be a Platinum issue.
     
    One weird thing though... I also opened up that CHC project where I had used this set up and hadn't noticed the problem. The wave looked pretty much normal. I recorded into it again in a new track and the waves looked very slightly askew but more normal than what I've been getting in the other project(s).
     
    But just for the record... after this troubleshooting I do not think this is a Platinum thing.
    #30
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