Helpful ReplyWhy I get so frustrated

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xxrich
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2015/12/20 22:45:31 (permalink)

Why I get so frustrated

So I'm a Cakewalk user since... well... since it was called Cakewalk and recording audio in it was not even dreamed of:-)
 
I'm just reflecting for the "betterment of all kind", as I am less productive than I used to be.  Takes more clicks to do things that used to take one.  Many years of brain mapped key-strokes (not unlike any keyboard player) causes havoc, or the stray keyboard hit does crazy things.  Surprising how hard it is to deprogram, even after using Sonar for so long.
 
Likely this has all been addressed but I don't have the time to research.  I offer a couple of programming pointers though:
1. Don't change the user interface however temping it may be (Microsoft should take note as well).
2. If you do #1, give us a magic key that makes it all like the old.
3. Keep up the great work because I don't want to change to another product - but it used to be "I would never change" - I could entertain it now, why not?  (don't answer this it was a rhetorical question meant to amplify (audio pun intended) my concerns:-))
-rich

Art, broadly conceived, is anything where the next move of which, is a free agent.
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#1
MelodicJimmy
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/20 22:50:52 (permalink)
I am not being rude, but..... I have no idea what the hell you are saying....
 

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#2
xxrich
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/20 23:16:30 (permalink)
Fair enough.  We'll see if it resonates with anyone else.  My intent is to keep the product from killing itself:-)
 

Art, broadly conceived, is anything where the next move of which, is a free agent.
http://azoony.com/band - The AZooNY Band (made with Sonar)
http://mars.azoony.com - New Comical Musical (composed using Sonar)
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sharke
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/20 23:25:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby arlen2133 2015/12/21 14:40:14
Software evolves, interfaces change. If software companies adopted a policy of never changing interfaces then we'd still be clumping around in Windows 3.1. Every now and then there's going to be a major overhaul of the software you use. It doesn't happen often, but when it does it's going to piss some people off. There is simply no way around that. 
 
You have to realize that Cakewalk has many different users to cater for. Longtime users are always going to insist that their prolonged loyalty to the product should be Cake's first and foremost consideration and that making changes they don't like is a "kick in the face." The reality is that Cakewalk would not be able to financially justify maintaining the product if "longtime users" were their only customer. They must continually attract new users. Not just refugees from other DAW's but also complete newbies who have never used one before. Without these customers you would not have Sonar. To attract new customers and compete with other DAW's you have to rethink, redesign, improve, overhaul, innovate.
 
I've been through all the changes to Windows, Microsoft Office, Quickbooks, Adobe products etc. Each time it provokes a litany of angry complaints. I don't like the way this works now, I can't find this feature, I miss this shortcut. Sometimes you just have to take a day to relearn a new design. But people don't bother doing that, they figure they're confident enough to stumble around in the dark and work it out themselves. In the process they miss new shortcuts and new features which have been designed to make things even easier than they were. 
 
Be honest - since the introduction of the Skylight interface, have you ever sat down and watched an up to date video course? Why not sit through the whole Groove3 course? You might well have more than one "aha" moment. 

James
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#4
xxrich
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/20 23:53:55 (permalink)
A well thought out post.  I'll pick a company... Adobe.. photoshop still functions the same way when I originally used it.  Pick another... Word -- those MS bastards :-)  Again, I would like Cakewalk (Sonar) to live long and prosper and to have happy users.  There's a sensitivity that is missing to folks that used the product before the newcomvers were born:-)
LOL
-rich

Art, broadly conceived, is anything where the next move of which, is a free agent.
http://azoony.com/band - The AZooNY Band (made with Sonar)
http://mars.azoony.com - New Comical Musical (composed using Sonar)
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sharke
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 01:02:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/12/22 13:23:58
Well the flip side is that you also have long time users just like yourself who are bowled over with the latest versions of Sonar and are amazed at how fast and stable it is now, and how useful the new features are. Now if Cakewalk were to say "OK we're going to scrap Skylight and revert back to the pre-X1 interface" then that would hardly be sensitive to long time users who think that Sonar is a much better DAW these days would it? 
 
I didn't mind the changes to Microsoft Office. There's always going to be a period of discombobulation, it's like changing cars. 
 
Another way to look at it is this. Learning new ways of doing things is very good for the brain. You're not only creating new neural pathways but you're also staving off dementia. I once read that something as simple as stirring your coffee with your other hand is "novel" enough to the brain to stimulate positive neural effects. 

James
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#6
John
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 01:18:22 (permalink)
Its a few years too late for this kind of thread. 

Best
John
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 01:46:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby sharke 2015/12/21 11:05:26
I've become somewhat allergic to changes in software as well, due to the fact that I have so little time for my hobbies, and I don't want to spend it re-learning things. One point in changing things is that the old customers eventually pass away. The product has to be kept in a form that attracts new, young customers.
Another thing is, that the ever developing hardware makes more things possible, and fitting the new features in the workflow may require structural changes.

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MGC59
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 12:13:19 (permalink)
My cat walked across my keyboard in the middle of a mixing session. So many things went sideways that for a few minutes I wasn't even sure I was in Sonar! A magic button returning things to a previous state would have helped immensely! Not wanting to lose my work I had to spend a considerable amount of time researching and restoring things back to the way they were.
 
I am not a key stroke guy...habitually I like to click on things. I have been around since the Sonar 3 days.
 
I totally feel xxrich's pain.
 
There are a so many added features and extras that make me want to keep upgrading (other reasons being a changing hardware necessity)
 
I must admit that Sonar 8.5 was my most productive phase especially for Midi editing. As xxrich stated: things that used to take one click now take several (Midi Plugins for example...5 steps to open!)
 
The Sonar X and Platinum phase has been trying for me, to say the least. At the moment I am back to Ipswich because of constant crashes in Kingston. Many sessions end after a crash or a feature not responding or performing like they should.
 
I understand that plugins can cause these issues, but the number of these little issues has increased and my productivity and enjoyment levels have dropped.
 
I too long for the old day.....

Mark
 
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#9
thepianist65
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 12:33:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Starise 2015/12/21 14:42:52
I work for a company that designs a software product (database) to professional end users, and my job is not to write it, but to teach how to use it. And changes are a mixed bag. usually they are a response to user requests and needs, sometimes it's because of changes in the environment and technology, and the competition that is more fierce than ever.  The cardinal rule, however, is that if you "fix" or change something, add a feature, try not to "break" something else in the program, or take something away so that it is more difficult or impossible to do. Especially for long-time users like myself and the OP.  But the user is free to move on if at some point another product becomes more appealing, and as much as a pain as this is (I'm avoiding it myself) it can be done. 
One more thing--the people who write the software aren't always the users of it--although in Sonar, probably they are. But there always needs to be attention to the user experience, not just "features."  That's a fine line. For the most part Cakewalk does this fairly well, but not perfectly, as you know.

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#10
stxx
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 12:53:40 (permalink)
For those who don't like the changes.....   don't implement them.  Its easy!  Most of us love the changes and the new capabilities but if you want stability in look feel and features, just don't upgrade.  If you loved 8.5 for example. go back to it.  Personally the new stuff is WAY more powerful than anything that came before and I can do way more stuff with way less steps now than before, especially when it comes to getting the over sound of a mix but again, for those that think the new changes are inconvenient or robbing your productivity... don't upgrade.

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Anderton
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 12:59:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/12/22 13:29:03
MGC59
I must admit that Sonar 8.5 was my most productive phase especially for Midi editing. As xxrich stated: things that used to take one click now take several (Midi Plugins for example...5 steps to open!)

 
First of all, this is definitely a valid topic, and Sharke's response is spot on.
 
Anyway re MIDI plug-ins, if the browser is open, click on the PlugIns tab, click on MIDI FX, then just drag the FX into the FX rack. Much of SONAR has added a drag-and-drop capability that wasn't there before, which can be helpful. 
 
Generally, I find that SONAR does things for a reason, although any reasons may not be obvious because I don't think Cakewalk has provided enough information on optimizing workflow. To me, learning new features is an investment...I spend X amount of time learning new protocols, but these save me 10X time overall. I think what we need more than a feature or interface freeze is better, shorter instructional materials on how to get the most out of SONAR's changes.

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John
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 13:01:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby BassDaddy 2015/12/21 23:37:20
xxrich
Fair enough.  We'll see if it resonates with anyone else.  My intent is to keep the product from killing itself:-)
 


Thats nonsense. Sonar 8.5 was eons ago. Good bad or indifferent its over! You might as well propose a move back to Pro Audio. We are in the Skylight era. Get over it.
 
The premise is absurd. We have moved on. Its time you catch up.    

Best
John
#13
ampfixer
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 13:06:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RD9 2015/12/21 15:24:14
Come on John, act like a grown up. There are more polite ways to get your point across. Be the bigger man here.

Regards, John 
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#14
SimpleM
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 13:29:51 (permalink)
As a user since PA, I agree that while the overall learning curve was steep to skylight, the "common" or "main" operations are pretty easy to master and did not take all that long to become ingrained. 

I certainly feel the errant key press pain.  I almost never use the console views since I mix out of the box but I find accidental key presses opening it constantly and while it is easy enough to close, it destroys workflow when it also changes where the multidock is or in an ffort to get back where you were, you accidentally close everything else you had open.

It is the more esoteric and deeper functions like the midi effects and those dang take lanes that are the real learning curve.  I guess take lanes are a useful tool for some but I am so fast with just comping the old fashioned way that to me it is only an unnecessary thing that while I can shut it off, I don't always remember to and so again, workflow frustrations.  My templates for new stuff seem to give me no issues as I have set it all the way I like it, but working on pre-update projects, (especially pre take-lane projects) just get under my skin when I have to remember to reset everything to the state I like it before I can work effeciently.

Still, software evolves and to get increased power and quality, we adapt.  I'd love the same power and functionality of the new version in the 8.5 interface as I worked with it so long, but I am learning the Skylight almost as well so I am sure a major overhaul and new interface to learn must surely be on the way.

I'm currently trying to learn z3ta+2 and Rapture Pro in a power user fashion and it is just a muddy mess in my brain.  The matrix is powerful but you can create brain spaghetti in an hurry.
post edited by SimpleM - 2015/12/21 13:41:57
#15
brundlefly
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 14:23:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2015/12/21 14:55:08
Glancing through this thread, I think users who don't like change and/or have trouble with inadvertent keystrokes will want to do some or all of the following:
 
1a. Re-bind F7-F10 (and their Ctrl-modified counterparts) to their pre-X1 functions.
1b. Same as above for any other bindings that don't work as expected.
2. Bind 0-9 keys to functions other than calling up their respective screensets or to "Do Nothing".
3a. Bind any other keys for functions you don't use to the "Do Nothing" function.
3b. Give thanks the Bakers for having already effectively done this for the 'O' key.
4. Take regular snapshots of your current mix so you can easily restore inadvertent changes to mute/solo states etc.
5. Smack yourself in the forehead and say "D'oh!" every time you try to type characters into a field without putting it in edit mode first.
6a. Become a dog person; a dog might lie down on your sustain pedal or step on a stompbox once in a while, but is not likely to walk across your keyboard.
6b. Take said dog for a walk whenever you feel frustrated by SONAR (or anything else computer-related). You'll both feel better.

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Zargg
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 15:11:29 (permalink)
Hi. And you can always come here to check for help, if / when needed. There is always someone here willing to lend a hand, if asked nicely
All the best.

Ken Nilsen
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sharke
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 16:04:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/12/22 13:30:23
MGC59
My cat walked across my keyboard in the middle of a mixing session. So many things went sideways that for a few minutes I wasn't even sure I was in Sonar! A magic button returning things to a previous state would have helped immensely! Not wanting to lose my work I had to spend a considerable amount of time researching and restoring things back to the way they were.
 
I am not a key stroke guy...habitually I like to click on things. I have been around since the Sonar 3 days.
 
I totally feel xxrich's pain.
 
There are a so many added features and extras that make me want to keep upgrading (other reasons being a changing hardware necessity)
 
I must admit that Sonar 8.5 was my most productive phase especially for Midi editing. As xxrich stated: things that used to take one click now take several (Midi Plugins for example...5 steps to open!)
 
The Sonar X and Platinum phase has been trying for me, to say the least. At the moment I am back to Ipswich because of constant crashes in Kingston. Many sessions end after a crash or a feature not responding or performing like they should.
 
I understand that plugins can cause these issues, but the number of these little issues has increased and my productivity and enjoyment levels have dropped.
 
I too long for the old day.....


CTRL-Z

I would like to think you are aware of the undo function? You can even see in the menu what you're undoing. If it's not undoable then it's likely related to the screen layout (I've hit screenshot shortcuts accidentally before and it's like whoa...). These things are trivial and can be fixed easily. Bottom line is you're not going to lose any work from the cat walking across the keys unless it hits quit and then "no" when asked to save...

James
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#18
sharke
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 16:10:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/12/22 13:30:37
Btw most apps have the potential for frustration caused by errant key presses. Every now and then I will be typing a long post in Chrome and will accidentally hit whatever shortcut closes the tab. At least Sonar would have asked me to save first. It's pretty hard to keep your cool in those circumstances.

And my iPhone! Good God. Sometimes I will be typing and the keyboard will suddenly disappear and before I get a chance to react I've hit "send" and posted in the middle of a sentence. Software has a long ways to go before it's totally frustration free, especially for kak-handed doofuses like myself.

James
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#19
DeeringAmps
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 16:48:29 (permalink)
Errant keys are an "easy fix"; I disable almost every one of them.
BUT, I pulled my hair out a few times finding out which ones were an "issue"
"A", hate that one! Can I just disable Audio Snap altogether??? Maybe SIGN IN BLOOD to get it to start?
Where's Theodore Bikel when you need him?
I STILL get the occasional "Sonar is generating audio transients..." when starting a project; WHAT?
The numbers (screensets) OHH what a blister that was, blew my screen to Hades more than once...
I feel your pain Rich, but go backward; NEVA!
 
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gbowling
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 16:59:49 (permalink)
The old days weren't as good as we remember them and the new days aren't as bad as we make them out to be.
 
I generally love the updates and changes. Are there specific ones that don't work? Of course there are. But the ones that do work far outnumber the ones that don't. And generally if something is really bad, it gets fixed over time. 
 
Long live the new products, new features, the new ways of doing things.
 
I just recently sold my old 1" 16 track, you can still buy them on ebay if you like!
 
PS - And I'm not a young guy! I've been a customer since the first versions, but went away from cake for a while during the early days in favor of Texture because the sync to tape feature on it worked much better. Texture was the king of keystrokes as everything about it was done with keystrokes. It was a DOS program!

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slartabartfast
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 17:08:33 (permalink)
I suspect the enthusiasm for the Skylight innovation is somewhat dependent on what people actually do with Sonar. It would be unusual if all users found all the changes helped them work more easily. Those who spend huge amounts of time using Sonar would be the most likely to find improvements worth learning, and would be in a relatively good position to unlearn the old way, and benefit from the new. Those of us who are Sonar hobbyists probably never developed the troublesome muscle memory that would make the transition difficult. And there probably were decisions made in the interface design that favored audio and looping vs MIDI workflow, which seems to have been a long term direction since Cakewalk morphed into Sonar. Do changes often cause frustration? You bet. Are all changes improvements? No they are not. Does anyone who makes these decisions care? I assume that they do, and that someone who put a lot of thought into it decided to improve the interface to satisfy the needs of the perceived largest number of potential users. And of course to sell the product to people who think it looks much cooler.
 
#22
MacFurse
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 17:56:39 (permalink)
I certainly understand the OP's concerns, and I like change and new things. Loved the whole feel of X1 onwards and think our current version is the best by far - however, as much I would love to stay on top with self training like Craig does, I simply don't have the time. Full time 'real' job, nearly 60,  young children (second time around), one about to start high school, and a full on job trying to produce a couple of new albums, I go nuts trying to make things happen. Learning Splat properly, simply has not happened. I use it, well enough I think, but hardly use any of the 'new' features, mostly finding workarounds to keep things going along the lines of X2, which is what I learnt best because I had the most time  back then. Now, it's all about getting the job done, with the least amount of distractions, in the smallest time I can allocate to the job. So, I too, get very frustrated when I have to stop to either learn a new process, or to try and unravel the mysteries of latest failures, in order to get back to work.
 
IMHO, there is no software that operates like the 'old days'.  I did all the photography and graphics to get my CD out earlier this year, and that was a nightmare learning the processes involved, and re-learning the current Adobe software, to get the CD and sleeves to the printers for production. Same for preparing the music for CD audio and digital media. The learning curve was so steep I kept falling off it.
 
But would I go backwards? No. Not at all. Mostly enjoy it. And I will update to Lexington, because I always try to keep up. But I'm still allowed to get frustrated and yell sometimes, just like the OP. Just helps sometimes lol!!
 

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#23
declan
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 18:01:03 (permalink)
Anderton
MGC59
I must admit that Sonar 8.5 was my most productive phase especially for Midi editing. As xxrich stated: things that used to take one click now take several (Midi Plugins for example...5 steps to open!)

   
Generally, I find that SONAR does things for a reason, although any reasons may not be obvious because I don't think Cakewalk has provided enough information on optimizing workflow. To me, learning new features is an investment...I spend X amount of time learning new protocols, but these save me 10X time overall. I think what we need more than a feature or interface freeze is better, shorter instructional materials on how to get the most out of SONAR's changes.




Agreed.  I don't think the OP's really complaining here.  If I have to be honest with myself I was more much more familiar with X3 than I am in SPLAT 11 months later.
 
That's on me, but there is frustration involved in that (BTW I think SPLAT's great). 
 
 
 
 
#24
yevster
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 18:29:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby backwoods 2015/12/21 18:51:31
Anderton
Generally, I find that SONAR does things for a reason, although any reasons may not be obvious because I don't think Cakewalk has provided enough information on optimizing workflow. To me, learning new features is an investment...I spend X amount of time learning new protocols, but these save me 10X time overall. I think what we need more than a feature or interface freeze is better, shorter instructional materials on how to get the most out of SONAR's changes.



The update from 8.5 to X1 made MIDI editing simpler to learn at the expense of making it more cumbersome for repeated use. CW still has not grasped that mode-switching is a design anti-pattern, because it requires the user to shift focus away from creating music to keep track of the application state. We've seen the same mistake with ProChannel in the inspector, which requires mode-switching between the track strip and pro-channel, even if there is enough real estate for both.
 
I have no beef with UI changes if they lead to demonstrable ergonomic optimization. I don't think Skylight was an example of that kind of change.
post edited by yevster - 2015/12/21 18:42:24
#25
backwoods
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 18:37:49 (permalink)
track strip and prochannel at same time is a BRILLIANT idea yevster. the way it is at the moment is not a satisfactory thing. even being able to cycle thru the modes with a single key, eg tab, would be superior to the current system.

 
#26
xxrich
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 21:23:32 (permalink)
You guys are all pretty sharp :-)  Never suggested going backwards - just to clarify.  But the past should guide or shape the forward progress.  Okay, okay - maybe it IS just a cat thing as my keyboard's been walked on too:-)
post edited by xxrich - 2015/12/21 21:48:02

Art, broadly conceived, is anything where the next move of which, is a free agent.
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#27
Anderton
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 21:29:38 (permalink)
yevster
We've seen the same mistake with ProChannel in the inspector, which requires mode-switching between the track strip and pro-channel, even if there is enough real estate for both.

 
Can you elaborate? I don't see how there could be enough real estate in the Inspector to fit both the ProChannel and the Console View-style channel strip+master simultaneously, so I must be missing something.

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#28
mettelus
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 21:53:55 (permalink)
Cakewalk should offer "Who moved my Cheese?" in the online store.

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#29
Anderton
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Re: Why I get so frustrated 2015/12/21 22:19:25 (permalink)
Well in fairness, some people adapt to change more readily than others, and can even adapt to change in some areas of their lives while not in others.
 
The key to assimilating change is to see beyond a functionality's manifestation to the functionality itself. Once you realize you don't have to learn new functionality, simply a new manifestation, matters become much easier. This is something I learned doing product reviews, because at their core, related products have more similarities than differences. So, you already know much about something you've never used...you just have to find out how that usage manifests itself.
 
Then again there's one of my favorite jokes... 
 
Q: How many guitarists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: It takes 20. One to screw in the light bulb, and 19 to say the old light bulb was so much better 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#30
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