AdamGrossmanLG
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Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
It seems to me that I am always reaching not only for the volume level, but also the bass levels for any album made before 1990 (and even some into the late 90s).
Yes, overall mastering levels were lower back then, I get that, but look at a spectrum analyzer on some early 80's dance tracks like from Yazoo or Depeche Mode.... now look at dance tracks from today. The 20Hz to 60Hz is so much louder in the mix than it was back then.
Anyone know why?
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davdud101
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 15:49:03
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Personally, I think 1) home systems have become better at sending bass out at high-ish volume and 2) people get the impression that MORE bass is better...
then again I was around before the 1990s, so what can I say
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Mesh
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 15:54:14
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Everyone was waiting for Meghan Trainor to come out with 'It's all about that bass"??  I also noticed the same thing Alewgro.....that seemed to have been the standard set for most engineers at the time.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 16:19:17
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davdud101
Personally, I think 1) home systems have become better at sending bass out at high-ish volume and 2) people get the impression that MORE bass is better...
then again I was around before the 1990s, so what can I say
use your system today, play a pop or rock album from 1981, then play one from today.
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batsbrew
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 16:33:14
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☄ Helpfulby Shambler 2015/05/15 10:15:27
early albums were mastered for vinyl. if you play vinyl too loud, the needle will jump out of the grooves. later, when digital came into play, a lot of the same mastering techniques stayed the same, even tho the bandwidth and headroom and overall recording processed had changed. electronics changed, methods of mastering changed, and then the loudness wars began. i like the sound of a lot of the older mixes, and hate the sound of a lot of modern mixes. and i hate the sound of some older mixes, and love the sound of some modern mixes. in other words, it's all over the map. \ if you want something louder, turn it up.
post edited by batsbrew - 2015/05/14 16:39:24
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 16:35:32
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But there are very bass-heavy albums being released on vinyl today still, and they are still loud and bass heavy...
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 16:36:28
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☄ Helpfulby craigb 2015/05/14 22:13:50
yes, the loudness wars - i get that, but is it also a BASS war?
Was the old mixing desks not capable of getting the bass we hear today or did they just purposely not add that much bass to the mixes back then?
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jbow
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 16:47:43
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edit> uneducated misunderstood question snarky answer... removed. J
post edited by jbow - 2015/05/14 17:48:46
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jbow
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 17:07:00
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batsbrew
early albums were mastered for vinyl.
if you play vinyl too loud, the needle will jump out of the grooves.
later, when digital came into play,
a lot of the same mastering techniques stayed the same,
even tho the bandwidth and headroom and overall recording processed had changed.
electronics changed,
methods of mastering changed,
and then the loudness wars began.
i like the sound of a lot of the older mixes,
and hate the sound of a lot of modern mixes.
and i hate the sound of some older mixes,
and love the sound of some modern mixes.
in other words,
it's all over the map.
\
if you want something louder,
turn it up.
We used to play vinyl pretty loud with those big 70s Pioneer and Sansui systems. They would get about as loud as you wanted. I still have a Pioneer SX-1010 that will get louder than you will want it to. I don't remember the bass sounding bad, it always seemed to thump you and sit well in the mix.... with the right speakers. You're right about mixes, some old ones were bad some new ones are bad. Some of each are good. I always thought that "Low Rider" by WAR was a great song for checking out a system. Some old Fleetwood Mac albums were mixed good. I liked the Bob Welch era albums a lot. Dave Mason Certified Live always sounded good to me too. The first couple of Marshall Tucker Band albums sound pretty bad to my ears. Most Steely Dan Albums are well mixed but AJA tops them all, IMO. I always enjoyed playing KILLER really loud. Firefall albums sound good, as do most Heart albums. Most, if not all, of Zappa's albums have a good mix. CSN still sound's good, real good. But what do I know, only what I like and it is completely subjective. J
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jbow
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 17:13:27
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alewgro
It seems to me that I am always reaching not only for the volume level, but also the bass levels for any album made before 1990 (and even some into the late 90s).
Yes, overall mastering levels were lower back then, I get that, but look at a spectrum analyzer on some early 80's dance tracks like from Yazoo or Depeche Mode.... now look at dance tracks from today. The 20Hz to 60Hz is so much louder in the mix than it was back then.
Anyone know why?
My guess to the actual question posed in the OP is CLARITY. We can't hear above 20KHZ, I can't hear anywhere near 20KHZ any more but it still seems to add something that I'll call clarity for lack of a better word. I think it is like a higher sample rate helping the overall sound but I really cannot explain it well or with any confidence, but I think maybe Anderton might be able to and a letter to OP might get a good answer. It is a good question! Perhaps it is just because they can. J
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 17:56:36
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☄ Helpfulby jbow 2015/05/14 18:07:01
I tell you exactly why.
Firstly if bass sounded any good it was generally a real BASS and nothing else back then, most bass samples sounded sh1te.
Working on Fairlights and S1000's etc the predefined supplied samples were not bass heavy. You might as well ask why orchestras don't have enough bass.... The answer is - it's just the instruments supplied...
Finally we liked the sound of it in the upper ranges, it was a popular sound. That was the fashion... I remember many producers I worked with openly stated it. It was the trend, and yes it sounded clearer. I think this was the main reason.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 18:04:16
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Oh I forgot about the delivery mechanism... Most people had one of these:  One of these:  Or one of these: The only woofers were dogs.
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brundlefly
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 18:28:35
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jbow
batsbrew
early albums were mastered for vinyl.
if you play vinyl too loud, the needle will jump out of the grooves.
We used to play vinyl pretty loud with those big 70s Pioneer and Sansui systems. They would get about as loud as you wanted.
It's not about how loud you play it, it's about how wide they cut the grooves in the master and the mechanical demands those high-amplitude, low-frequency signals place on the needle and cartridge. And it might be less about the needle actually jumping out of the groove, and more about the distortion that results at higher frequencies when the low-frequency amplitudes are high and added wear and tear on both the vinyl and the needle. If modern vinyl is being mastered with more bass, it might be because they know that's what everyone is used to hearing in the digital age, and they can get away with sacrificing some purity in the higher frequencies to deliver that thump, especially given how MP3s and online streaming have dumbed down the average listener's sensitivity to distortion.  This is all pure speculation, you understand. I don't know that much about vinyl, and didn't stop to Google. 
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davdud101
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 18:59:44
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SO then I was partially right!
Actually, I can vouch for this. I decided while doing some chores to make a playlist of both Birth of the Cool (1957) and Re-birth of the Cool (1992). (of course re-birth is a re-recording of the original album)
Honestly, there is SO much happening in the chord progression that I NEVER heard (because of the bass), and probably would have never heard without having to destroy the sound quality of the originals. MAN, some of these tunes are even MORE complex than I thought!
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 19:01:00
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OK, I think my question got lost in the shuffle a bit.
Forget loudness - I understand things got louder... but the spectrum of frequencies has changed.
Pop a dance track from 1981 into Sonar and then a dance track from 2015 into Sonar. Look at the graphical EQ plot of the readout.
The songs from the 80s have much less bass compared to the other frequencies. Why did people start adding more BASS?
Was it that they couldn't for some reason? Was it just not preferred?
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yorolpal
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 19:30:39
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Plus almost every decently mixed and mastered album of yore (and IMHO they should still be today) was high passed at 30 to 40hz. This alone does wonders to clean up a dense muddy mix. But today it's Katy Bar The Door. Or don't.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 19:52:24
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still leads me to wonder WHY more bass in the past 20 yrs or so. volume I get... but why more bass? was it a technical restriction? Like i said, there are bass-heavy current records still being released on vinyl, so i dont understand that as an answer - although i have heard that before.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 19:54:03
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Doktor Avalanche
I tell you exactly why.
Firstly if bass sounded any good it was generally a real BASS and nothing else back then, most bass samples sounded sh1te.
Working on Fairlights and S1000's etc the predefined supplied samples were not bass heavy. You might as well ask why orchestras don't have enough bass.... The answer is - it's just the instruments supplied...
Finally we liked the sound of it in the upper ranges, it was a popular sound. That was the fashion... I remember many producers I worked with openly stated it. It was the trend, and yes it sounded clearer. I think this was the main reason.
dude - listen to some synth sounds from say the ARP2600, Pro One, or Mini Moog... amazing bass sounds... rich and creamy... so i dont think thats it.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 20:33:50
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☄ Helpfulby alewgro 2015/05/14 20:51:16
Doktor Avalanche
I tell you exactly why.
Firstly if bass sounded any good it was generally a real BASS and nothing else back then, most bass samples sounded sh1te.
Working on Fairlights and S1000's etc the predefined supplied samples were not bass heavy. You might as well ask why orchestras don't have enough bass.... The answer is - it's just the instruments supplied...
Finally we liked the sound of it in the upper ranges, it was a popular sound. That was the fashion... I remember many producers I worked with openly stated it. It was the trend, and yes it sounded clearer. I think this was the main reason.
alewgro
dude - listen to some synth sounds from say the ARP2600, Pro One, or Mini Moog... amazing bass sounds... rich and creamy... so i dont think thats it.
If you listen to records with those synths they generally aren't tinny or the producer has turned down the volume (because as I say it was the trend). Those synths were very expensive at the time, not every band could afford one of those. Not everybody used these sort of keyboards and not everybody was using the Human League/Ultravox/moog basslines... Listen to those sorts of records - they ain't tinny. I'm mainly talking about samplers mainly which everybody used. FM synthesis was everywhere as well (DX 7's/D50's/Fairlights/S1000's)... Well at least during my period from '86 onwards. But of course what would I know because I was working on these sorts of records in major recording studios at the time if you don't mind me beating my own drum . Sorry ;). Oh and I forget we generally would have vinyl and a CD master (CD's were just coming in).... they would often sound quite different. There was a time when we would do DAT masters (that was a time best forgotten). right ... Now off to align the tape machine...
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sharke
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 21:18:11
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One word: Reggae. Those old reggae mixes were plenty bass heavy and pressed onto vinyl too. Reggae, Lover's Rock and Ska were huge in the UK in the late 70's and early 80's and I remember hearing the heavy bass thumping out of pubs and clubs when I was a kid.
Another word: cocaine. Drug trends have always had a huge influence on the music scene and the 80's was the decade of heavy blow abuse. I've heard more than one engineer say that 80's mixes were so brash and top heavy because everyone in the studio was coked up and all that treble sounded awesome....
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Anderton
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 21:38:27
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/05/15 08:32:13
The deal with vinyl is that there's a tradeoff among level, length, and bass. You can have it long, you can have it bassy, or you can have it loud...but you can't have all three, and to even get two requires a mastering engineer who truly understands vinyl.
You could get lots of bass from 12" dance singles because you were only about 7-8 minutes long, so you could get loud and bassy.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/14 22:02:34
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sharke
One word: Reggae. Those old reggae mixes were plenty bass heavy and pressed onto vinyl too. Reggae, Lover's Rock and Ska were huge in the UK in the late 70's and early 80's and I remember hearing the heavy bass thumping out of pubs and clubs when I was a kid.
Another word: cocaine. Drug trends have always had a huge influence on the music scene and the 80's was the decade of heavy blow abuse. I've heard more than one engineer say that 80's mixes were so brash and top heavy because everyone in the studio was coked up and all that treble sounded awesome....
Another word urine. I've saw one person relieve themself on the desk who shall remain nameless.
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Bert Guy
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/15 01:23:57
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sharke
One word: Reggae. Those old reggae mixes were plenty bass heavy and pressed onto vinyl too. Reggae, Lover's Rock and Ska were huge in the UK in the late 70's and early 80's and I remember hearing the heavy bass thumping out of pubs and clubs when I was a kid.
Another word: cocaine. Drug trends have always had a huge influence on the music scene and the 80's was the decade of heavy blow abuse. I've heard more than one engineer say that 80's mixes were so brash and top heavy because everyone in the studio was coked up and all that treble sounded awesome....
Two more words : hip hop
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craigb
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/15 02:24:19
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Bapu was too busy posting.
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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mourningpyre
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/15 05:02:25
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I'm not an awful big fan of the 'bassiness' of some mixes today. It hurts my ears, honestly. Interesting thread, however, and I'd wager a guess that when I was a kid, I was listening on Walkman devices and tape decks. No sub woofer.
post edited by mourningpyre - 2015/05/15 05:09:08
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subtlearts
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/15 07:36:54
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Doktor Avalanche
Another word urine. I've saw one person relieve themself on the desk who shall remain nameless.
The person or the desk? I hope it wasn't a nice desk. It sounds like it wasn't a very nice person... or perhaps just a very drunk one?
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Moshkito
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/15 09:24:16
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batsbrew
early albums were mastered for vinyl.
if you play vinyl too loud, the needle will jump out of the grooves.
...
IF the needle jumped out of the grooves, in my case, it was because the ESS Heil speakers blew out the walls in the room, that caused the needle to jump! I have blown up Hawkwind, Floating Anarchy and many other super loud albums, and have NEVER EVER, in 38 years, had a needle jump because of the bass ... which would suggest ... HORRIBLE SPEAKERS in the first place. My Heil's don't even shake the floor and the bass is all on the "air". I'm not sure this is right at all ... I have used the Heil's so loud, that I have had to re-cone the speakers twice in since 1978, both here in Portland at Jamac ... who still tells me not to let go of the speakers because that solid build and design is still better than half the stuff out there! (Had the Pioneer PL-12D - top of the line in 1978, and a Stanton 381EEE that cost $275 at that time, and lasted 28 years! And Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream ... sounded ... better than they probably should, specially Schulze! But NONE, of the folks around us, even in radio, had anything as good/strong as my system was, in order to hear things that otherwise you do not hear, which was the case in PF's English pressings (American pressings were copies and had the background almost removed!!!!), as well as Beatle pressings. Some of the monitors at the radio station my roomie was on, were pretty good, but I think that was because the place was setup for editing and making commercial spots, and the separation was very good, but the loudest I ever heard something in there was pretty good ... and better than the home systems. But the only time I saw a needle jump there was because the girl .... accidentally came against it .... or .....
post edited by Moshkito - 2015/05/15 09:45:36
Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides!
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/15 09:42:32
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plus there are VERY heavy bass albums released on Vinyl today - I've heard them on Vinyl... they are BASS HEAVY!
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Moshkito
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/15 09:52:39
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alewgro
plus there are VERY heavy bass albums released on Vinyl today - I've heard them on Vinyl... they are BASS HEAVY!
Easy cheat!!!!!! FRY's here had a couple of folks showing off the LP's they were trying to sell at an over inflated price, and they put on Led Zep's 1 and 2 to show how strong the bass and frequencies were. I walked up to him and said ... you better take a look at your treble, mid and low settings, because you highlighted the bass, not the rest of the frequencies! Half an hour later, his "audience" was down to a third. The LP thing is NOT about the bass. It's about a lot more. However, I found that the speaker/bass was not the issue ... the CARTRIDGE that picked it up was! Because if it could not pick up half the stuff in the grooves, the music did not sound good, and that was the case in most stuff that sounded like AM radio ... very poooopie! I have no issue with the LP thing! I'm getting rid of mine, and it's down to under 1500 LP's already (from 3K), because the weight is insane and I do not have a house for them! I do not think that folks have any idea (except those at CH, because they work in these things all the time!!!!!!!), what the "fidelity" and its quality in the old days was all about, and IU was basically selling folks a cheap system for a LP, that is not better than the originals in the 70's! It's not only false advertising, it is also serious disrespect for the consumer and taking advantage of what they don't know!!!!
post edited by Moshkito - 2015/05/15 10:22:59
Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides!
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batsbrew
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Re: Why Is There A Lack Of Bass In Mostly Any Album Prior To 1990?
2015/05/15 10:15:52
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Moshkito
batsbrew
early albums were mastered for vinyl.
if you play vinyl too loud, the needle will jump out of the grooves.
...
IF the needle jumped out of the grooves, in my case, it was because the ESS Heil speakers blew out the walls in the room, that caused the needle to jump!
I have blown up Hawkwind, Floating Anarchy and many other super loud albums, and have NEVER EVER, in 38 years, had a needle jump because of the bass ... which would suggest ... HORRIBLE SPEAKERS in the first place. My Heil's don't even shake the floor and the bass is all on the "air".
i saw it happen quite frequently in the 70's.. but it was extreme. and it depended on the length of the album, really long albums tended to be the worst. that said, i think people just decided they liked the sound of more bass, in general. which i do not necessarily agree with.
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