sharke
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Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
I've updated Komplete Ultimate religiously since Komplete 8, albeit always when it was on sale. When I first started out in music production and pretty much knew that it wasn't going to be a short lived hobby, I figured it was the most bang for my buck in terms of what you get, and to be honest, I still think it's great value. But recently certain niggling annoyances about their stuff as a whole have come to a head with me. The problem I have with them in is their synth and effects products. Their sample libraries are great, I have no trouble with them. But so much of their synths and effects are just plain goofy, by which I mean stupidly over-complicated and terribly documented. The upshot is that unless you have a phd in physics you're very unlikely to understand what in the hell is going on, and you're never going to fully master them. In addition to this, their presets are goddamn awful, let's face it. I have this beef with a lot of soft synth manufacturers but NI really seems to lead the pack in terms of unmusical, unusable presets that you're just never ever going to want to incorporate in a track, even if you're an EDM producer. I know presets are partly there to show off what the synth is capable of, but come on, you have to have a solid core of usable sounds that have stood the test of time and are useful as foundations to tweak into your own variations. Going through the presets on most NI synths I'm just irritated as hell, and this really became clear to me when I installed Komplete Ultimate 10 and took synths like Rounds and Kontour for a test spin. The presets are just horrible, 99% of them have no musical use whatsoever and seem to be a demonstration of some synth nerd's technical skills more than anything. Which I wouldn't mind if these synths were intuitive, but they're not. I mean come on, does anyone really understand Prism? It's a great sounding synth (and actually has a handful of half decent sounding presets) but the fact that Groove3 (or anyone else) has never released a video course on it speaks volumes. Nobody knows what in the hell is going on! I once sat down with the manual, determined that I'd learn how it works no matter how long it took me. After a couple of readings I still didn't understand. Same thing with Spark - it's like some convoluted science project with a manual written by someone who hates people and doesn't get out much. No video course for that either. You'd think Native Instruments would release a good set of videos to go along with these instruments, but no - the most you'll ever get out of them is a cheesy 2 minute video with some irritating dubstep music which leaves you none the wiser. The manuals are so bad I would consider it grounds for a refund. Take Molekular, the "revolutionary" new modular effect unit they rave so much about. It has a lot of wacky effect modules that you'll probably never, ever want to use in a track because they just don't seem to produce anything approaching a musical sound. So why would you ever want to chain 4 of them together, cross modulating everything in their path? Let's say you want to learn about the "Plagiarism" effect. Here's NI's explanation in the manual: "The input signal’s amplitude is measured using an envelope follower. The measured RMS data
is used to trigger 16 envelopes, which in turn are used to play back 16 “voices.” The voices
are commonly switched between bandpass, sine-wave, or pulse-wave modes. The pitch or center
frequency of each voice is generated from a base pitch plus per-voice offset that is read
from a look-up table with various interval sequences. For example, the 16 voices can be configured
to play the base pitch and its first 15 harmonics as sine waves. In pulse-wave mode,
the envelope is additionally used to modulate pulse width."
Totally understandable right? You totally know where you are from that.  But this is how all of their manuals are written. If you want to learn Spark, or Kontour, or Rounds, that's the kind of blurb you're going to have to slog through - page after page of it. I consider myself reasonably intelligent and know the basics of synthesis and even like a challenge - but come on Native Instruments, have you ever thought about getting a normal, socially functioning person to write your manuals? Rounds is an interesting sounding synth but the interface seems badly designed and NOT conducive to creativity. Very convoluted workflow and functionality. Now FM8, that's a great synth with a great interface. Monark - can't go wrong with what are basically MiniMoog controls. But this is Native Instruments emulating classic synths that have already been designed for them, and giving them a modern interface. Their other stuff is starting to get on my nerves, and I'm starting to wonder why in the hell I'm paying for so much stuff which is ultimately unmusical and baffling. Rant over! I'll probably give it all another go tomorrow like I always do
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Vastman
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 02:15:23
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DUDE!!! Word!!! I bought into K7 then to 9 just for Kontakt... early on I realized all the rest of the stuff paled in comparison to Uhe, Alchemy, and many others...crappy presets, lousy manuals, sound...meh? I got pissed really quick, but the upgrades to stay current with Kontakt...99 bucks...have been ok... the best thing NI has goin' is Kontakt... because every one ELSE develops for it. Never went for the bigger brother as I didn't like it's sibling... The ONLY thing I use is Kontakt, cept for a bit of Guitar Rig. All the good stuff they include, like the heavyocity stuff... I already own... and the orchestral stuff I bought I'm still kickin' myself for... really tacky compared to others... BTW, Plug in Guru has some decent vids on FM8 but that's about it... oh, Razor too...and Absynth and that other one I don't use...
post edited by Vastman - 2015/10/01 02:27:57
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Sycraft
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 02:40:34
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Ya I think their new Reaktor synths tend to be silly. I do like their older synths though, FM8 and Massive are both very nice IMO and Massive is pretty easy to use.
Thing with Komplete (and Ultimate even more) is you just have to know you are buying in to a lot of crap you don't want. So figure out if the stuff you do is worth the bundle price. I decided it was. Of the stuff in K9U (I didn't bother to upgrade to 10) it broke down for me like this:
Really want: Kontakt, the pianos, the basses ($1050)
Would like: FM8, Massive, Mark I, Battery, Guitar Rig, Reverb Classics, Session Strings ($1070)
Don't care: The rest of it.
Made it a no-brainer really. I needed Kontakt because I wanted full Kontakt libraries. That would be $250 (crossgrade since I had some play libraries). So if I was going to spend $250 or more on other libraries, then Komplete would be worth it. I decided I would, since at a minimum I wanted one of their pianios and basses and that would be $200 right there. I didn't get ultimate right away, but when it was on sale for $250 upgrade, I decided that was plenty worth the extra.
I have a lot of junk I don't install, Damage, Action Strings, all the drums, etc, and then junk I installed but don't use, like Reaktor. However it was worth it for what I did want.
Always the issue with big bundles: They are almost never going to be 100% things you want. So you just have to throw math at it and see if it'll be worth it.
Given the amount o' stuff they cram in Komplete and the fact that it is only $250 more than Kontakt if you have a library already (and $100 more if not) it is nearly always worth it.
Just ditch the Reaktor crap, and give Massive and FM8 a try. I still usually use Synthmaster, but I like them. In particular Massive does better synth strings IMO.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 05:45:02
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Reaktor has some incredibly powerful synth-building features, as well as a bunch of really nice included synths and presets.
I was able to faithfully reproduce Baba O'Reilly intro REALLY close to perfect, and the same for Won't Get Fooled Again's organ and the Seconds Out Genesis Firth of Fifth keyboard solo sound.
I have zero use for Massive or Absynth, just because I don't do those evolving soundscape kinds of sounds.
FM8 has some brilliant c\sounds and capabilities, AND I found a freely available gigantic set of DX* EVERYTHING (DX7, DX9, TX816, GS1, you name it anything Yama DX-type technology) presets that are converted for FM8 use. I am talking TENS OF THOUSANDS of presets, plus FM8 can directly read any of the DX* sysex info so you can find and use any of those kinds of banks out on the web and instantly directly USE them in FM8.
Battery 3 is also quite used by me, as are Kontakt and Guitar Rig.
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stevec
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 08:05:47
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Yeah... I've gotten use out of just about everything in K9. Except for the FX - I just never seem to use those. But synth-wise there isn't much I haven't used at least once or twice (or more). Granted, I don't create patches from scratch but rather tweak presets.
Then again, are there any deep/cutting edge synths that aren't somewhat obtuse? I don't own and use much outside of K9, but one synth I do have and use is Loom from AIR. It's additive and I really like it, but it aint overly intuitive.
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Glyn Barnes
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 08:57:33
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To be honest I dont think they expect most users will try to understand how to program some of these newer Reaktor based synths. I think the general idea is you mess with a preset and hope for a happy accident. I started out with analogue synths like the EMS Synthi A so I can get the sound I want reasonably quickley fron an traditional analogue synth but have to rely on trial and error with some modern soft synths.
I like Kontour a lot, Rounds on the other hand is a bit of a mystery. Prism is capable of some pretty unique sounds but it remains virtualy unused by me, I am not sure why. I am not sure about Spark either.
The Mouth and finger are fun but I am not sure how to integrate them into the type of music I want to make. That may be down to a lack of imagination on my part.
Monark is superb, but there are several really good Mini Moog emulations out there. Minimonsta is my goto, its probably less authentic than Monark but I like the extra features.
I have never used FM8 in anger, I think I had my fill of FM in the 80's and 90's with hardware Yamaha synths.
Massive gets used occasionally. There are some nice leads and basses as starting points and tweaking is reasonably straight forward.
Absynth I am glad to have even though it only gets used occasionally. The mutate feature is the ultimate happy accident generator.
I keep thinking I should learn to create my own Reaktor ensembles. But then again I will probably get some wood and build another mountain dulcimer instead.
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MarioD
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 09:22:35
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I have Kontakt with a ton of third party sounds, FM8 with a ton of DX/TX presets and B4II. This is all I need from NI.
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 09:51:59
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Reaktor is for synth builders. It's not surprising that people who buy just for preset sounds are baffled by it. It's probably the only synth your will ever need assuming you have time to learn it as it is a huge mother. Have a read of the manual and I'll see you in 2016. Those who aren't downing the NI community contributions for it are missing out. Definitely want Reaktor 6 but waiting at least until K11, but then again K11 better be really special otherwise I'm sticking to K9. IMHO NI synths cannot be learned overnight and can take years to get a grip of. Therefore there is no point in upgrading for several years, otherwise you might just be walking around in a huge candy factory, and buying another one before you've barely explored the first. If you want just presets best go for cheaper synths such as z3TA+2 for instance (assuming one day they fix the bugs).
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/01 10:04:04
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sharke
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 10:17:35
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Don't get me wrong, I still think Komplete is good value for money for the things I DO like about it, i.e. Kontakt and included libraries, FM8, Massive (yes an excellent synth with a very well designed interface), Monark, Battery and some of the Reaktor stuff. And yes some of the Reaktor User Library stuff is amazing, some great sounding free synths there like Eccentrix. And I'm not saying their newer synths are bad sounding per se, it's just the way they package their stuff, i.e. horrible presets and terrible documentation. When I compare, for example, the Geist manual with the manual for any NI synth, it's like night and day. The difference between someone who really knows how to introduce a new user to a new product, and someone who figures they'll just collect all of their nerdy development notes into a PDF and call it a day. This stuff could be great, but they don't want to help you get to grips with it. Reaktor, yes I know, very powerful tool, but again the documentation kind of presumes you already have a strong overview on how it all works, it's more like a reference manual than anything. How about some online tutorials? Adobe, for example, provides a lot of baby-step lessons for new users. NI could be doing a lot more toward getting beginners up and running with synth building in Reaktor instead of forcing them into buying third party lessons (which like NI's own documentation, aren't that great for beginners.) I've tried reading the Reaktor manual but never really got anywhere with synth building because they don't really explain the basic philosophies and practices of Reaktor well enough to give you enough confidence to understand what the hell they're going on about later. I had the same experience with programming manuals when I learned C some years ago. Some of them were brilliantly written and knew exactly what sort of questions the beginner would be asking, others were seemingly written by a nerd who seemed irritated by the fact that beginners existed in the first place. NI manuals fall into the latter category.
post edited by sharke - 2015/10/01 10:27:51
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MachineClaw
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 10:42:57
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A lot of the new NI products are not made by NI.
The does not really excuse them for lack of documentation etc just sort of works that way.
the effects are by softtube guys (I think, maybe it's someone else). the reactor ensembles are by a different 3rd party. the new orchestral stuff by another 3rd party. all the Maschine packs are not made by NI.
I don't think Reactor was written by NI originally I thought NI bought it from someone or had someone build it for NI. it's NI now.
I think the lack of documentation or good documentation comes from buying a product outright slapping the NI name and brand on it and slapping it out the door. dunno if NI really know how to use it or document some of the stuff they have.
doesn't really excuse it. just because I know this, sometimes when I am diving into a NI product or NI manual I sometimes have the ahhhhh ha, written by someone else moment.
Groove3.com is a good place for NI product tutorial vids, there are a tone out there if you hunt for better information than the documentation or manuals that come from NI. just saying.
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TerraSin
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 10:49:15
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I see a lot of the NI stuff like this: they are software developers. They are giving you the tools to work with and some minimal presets to get you started but they expect you to take the next step yourself either with your own sound design or buying professionally made presets.
Their sample stuff... I find to be mediocre at best. I think they saw this as well which is one reason they started bringing in other companies to supply new sample libraries that were better quality.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 11:15:51
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MachineClaw
I think the lack of documentation or good documentation comes from buying a product outright slapping the NI name and brand on it and slapping it out the door. dunno if NI really know how to use it or document some of the stuff they have.
In the past NI had some criticism for documentation. Nowadays, most NI manuals are superb, I'd buy them as a separate book if they were for sale but they are included. Check them out.
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arachnaut
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 11:39:32
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I tend to explore and experiment with sound. I am a nerd and musical hobbyist, not a traditional musician. I grew up watching 1950's Sci-Fi and loved the spacey theremins and reverbs. My favorite sound track is from Forbidden Planet.
I have built hundreds of Reaktor synths and effects, about 70 or so are in the User Library.
I have been a Reaktor Beta Tester for some time and I made presets for Skanner and some of their other effects.
I'm am not allowed to mention Beta stuff or what goes on on those mailing lists, but I can tell you that there is a lot of discussion about direction and features and useability.
Reaktor is very difficult to learn to use well, and even casual connections require a bit of learning.
The factory products have been streamlined and optimized so heavily that they are unfathomable. You probably know that earlier Reaktor stuff used only what is now called 'Primary' modules and they were fairly easy to use (and still are), but a new level called Core was introduced with Reaktor 5 and it is a bit different. So now in Reaktor 6 there are three levels to Reaktor programming - the GUI panel layout, the Primary interfaces with the GUI and pre-processing for Core, and the Core DSP functions. That's a lot to learn.
I have so many music products I can't really learn how to use them very well, even within the NI kingdom. So I played around with Rounds, Kontour, Polyplex, Prism, Lazerbass, and so on, but don't program them very much.
Molekular on the other hand I know fairly well and I use it and program it. But I agree it is a bit extreme, at least it is if you use it right.
Documentation has not been the strong point of many products and Reaktor documentation is quite massive in terms of pages and it is getting better. But it is still very hard to learn to use well.
Having said all this, I'll close by saying that I use Reaktor just about every day. It allows me to do whatever I can imagine and experiment with all sorts of wacky ideas. Any other tool like this (say, Max, for example), will probably require considerable learning effort as well. Whether they are easier or harder I don't know. The only other such tool I knew was CSound and I don't use it at all any more.
For me, Reaktor is not for conventional musical applications, it is experimental.
I recommend getting an extremely fast CPU if you use Reaktor - it is not multi-core aware, so get the fastest single-core speed you can.
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azslow3
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 12:27:08
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sharke
"The input signal’s amplitude is measured using an envelope follower. The measured RMS data
is used to trigger 16 envelopes, which in turn are used to play back 16 “voices.” The voices
are commonly switched between bandpass, sine-wave, or pulse-wave modes. The pitch or center
frequency of each voice is generated from a base pitch plus per-voice offset that is read
from a look-up table with various interval sequences. For example, the 16 voices can be configured
to play the base pitch and its first 15 harmonics as sine waves. In pulse-wave mode,
the envelope is additionally used to modulate pulse width."
Totally understandable right? You totally know where you are from that.
I do not have NI and I am not an expert in synths. But that explanation make sense for me, I can imagine what sound it is going to produce (without a prove). So it seems like you are right about targeted audience, I am working 20 years close to physics and I have quite some DSP background 
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backwoods
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 12:51:59
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N.I> seems to be a bit like Apple Logic. They just buy up whatever they can and then rebrand it as though they made it. It explains the lack of continuity with regards to manuals and style and quality of the bundled software. But with things like alicia keys piano and the softube effects it is a "no brainer"
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stevec
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 14:55:07
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azslow3
sharke
"The input signal’s amplitude is measured using an envelope follower. The measured RMS data
is used to trigger 16 envelopes, which in turn are used to play back 16 “voices.” The voices
are commonly switched between bandpass, sine-wave, or pulse-wave modes. The pitch or center
frequency of each voice is generated from a base pitch plus per-voice offset that is read
from a look-up table with various interval sequences. For example, the 16 voices can be configured
to play the base pitch and its first 15 harmonics as sine waves. In pulse-wave mode,
the envelope is additionally used to modulate pulse width."
Totally understandable right? You totally know where you are from that.
I do not have NI and I am not an expert in synths. But that explanation make sense for me, I can imagine what sound it is going to produce (without a prove). So it seems like you are right about targeted audience, I am working 20 years close to physics and I have quite some DSP background
Hmmm.... that does seem somewhat similar to additive synthesis. Of course, getting a usable sound from it may be a different story.
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arlen2133
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 20:31:57
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I bought into K9 a couple of years ago. Got it because I wanted both Kontakt5 and Battery4. Separately I would've paid more than if I just got the package. Couldn't resist the $99 upgrade to K10 although I honestly don't think I've used any of it (yet). My staple is the 3rd party samples I can load into Kontakt5. Occassionally Absynth finds its way into a song (or two). FM8 and Massive are actually on my template (along with Kontakt and Battery). I usually go to them first before searching my other synths. I haven't taken advantage of NI's community only having gone through it once or twice. After reading here, I'll give it a second look.
I usually use Groove 3 for learning how to use them and that has worked pretty well so far. I have also seen a few UTube vids and some of them are pretty good as well.
No.. Komplete isn't as complete as the "all inclusive go to" for some genres but as someone said, for the price getting the package is worth it.
Arlen aka Mr Grant my music
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Magic Russ
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 23:28:29
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Glyn Barnes
Absynth I am glad to have even though it only gets used occasionally. The mutate feature is the ultimate happy accident generator.
I have come up with a few cool sounds with the mutate function. It would also be cool if they had a crossbreed function like Crystal does.
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Magic Russ
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/01 23:49:41
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sharke
In addition to this, their presets are goddamn awful, let's face it. I have this beef with a lot of soft synth manufacturers but NI really seems to lead the pack in terms of unmusical, unusable presets that you're just never ever going to want to incorporate in a track, even if you're an EDM producer. I know presets are partly there to show off what the synth is capable of, but come on, you have to have a solid core of usable sounds that have stood the test of time and are useful as foundations to tweak into your own variations.
I don't agree, at least not for all of their synths. For example on Monark, there are plenty of presets resembling classic tracks. You've got a couple ELP ones, a "Follow You, Follow Me" one, a Funkadelic bass patch, and I think one for the saw lead from "Shine on You Crazy Diamond". Likewise, I am impressed with some of the things they did with Massive. In addition to all the EDM stuff the synth is known for, they have a few good patches for ambient sounds and a few good patches in the "Physical Modeling" category, which obviously aren't PM, but have a similar vibe. On the other hand, I haven't heard the K11 instruments, so I can't comment on those.
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/02 00:41:28
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sharke
I've updated Komplete Ultimate religiously since Komplete 8, albeit always when it was on sale. When I first started out in music production and pretty much knew that it wasn't going to be a short lived hobby, I figured it was the most bang for my buck in terms of what you get, and to be honest, I still think it's great value. But recently certain niggling annoyances about their stuff as a whole have come to a head with me.
The problem I have with them in is their synth and effects products. Their sample libraries are great, I have no trouble with them. But so much of their synths and effects are just plain goofy, by which I mean stupidly over-complicated and terribly documented. The upshot is that unless you have a phd in physics you're very unlikely to understand what in the hell is going on, and you're never going to fully master them.
In addition to this, their presets are goddamn awful, let's face it. I have this beef with a lot of soft synth manufacturers but NI really seems to lead the pack in terms of unmusical, unusable presets that you're just never ever going to want to incorporate in a track, even if you're an EDM producer. I know presets are partly there to show off what the synth is capable of, but come on, you have to have a solid core of usable sounds that have stood the test of time and are useful as foundations to tweak into your own variations. Going through the presets on most NI synths I'm just irritated as hell, and this really became clear to me when I installed Komplete Ultimate 10 and took synths like Rounds and Kontour for a test spin. The presets are just horrible, 99% of them have no musical use whatsoever and seem to be a demonstration of some synth nerd's technical skills more than anything.
Which I wouldn't mind if these synths were intuitive, but they're not. I mean come on, does anyone really understand Prism? It's a great sounding synth (and actually has a handful of half decent sounding presets) but the fact that Groove3 (or anyone else) has never released a video course on it speaks volumes. Nobody knows what in the hell is going on! I once sat down with the manual, determined that I'd learn how it works no matter how long it took me. After a couple of readings I still didn't understand. Same thing with Spark - it's like some convoluted science project with a manual written by someone who hates people and doesn't get out much. No video course for that either. You'd think Native Instruments would release a good set of videos to go along with these instruments, but no - the most you'll ever get out of them is a cheesy 2 minute video with some irritating dubstep music which leaves you none the wiser.
The manuals are so bad I would consider it grounds for a refund. Take Molekular, the "revolutionary" new modular effect unit they rave so much about. It has a lot of wacky effect modules that you'll probably never, ever want to use in a track because they just don't seem to produce anything approaching a musical sound. So why would you ever want to chain 4 of them together, cross modulating everything in their path? Let's say you want to learn about the "Plagiarism" effect. Here's NI's explanation in the manual:
"The input signal’s amplitude is measured using an envelope follower. The measured RMS data
is used to trigger 16 envelopes, which in turn are used to play back 16 “voices.” The voices
are commonly switched between bandpass, sine-wave, or pulse-wave modes. The pitch or center
frequency of each voice is generated from a base pitch plus per-voice offset that is read
from a look-up table with various interval sequences. For example, the 16 voices can be configured
to play the base pitch and its first 15 harmonics as sine waves. In pulse-wave mode,
the envelope is additionally used to modulate pulse width."
Totally understandable right? You totally know where you are from that.
But this is how all of their manuals are written. If you want to learn Spark, or Kontour, or Rounds, that's the kind of blurb you're going to have to slog through - page after page of it. I consider myself reasonably intelligent and know the basics of synthesis and even like a challenge - but come on Native Instruments, have you ever thought about getting a normal, socially functioning person to write your manuals?
Rounds is an interesting sounding synth but the interface seems badly designed and NOT conducive to creativity. Very convoluted workflow and functionality. Now FM8, that's a great synth with a great interface. Monark - can't go wrong with what are basically MiniMoog controls. But this is Native Instruments emulating classic synths that have already been designed for them, and giving them a modern interface. Their other stuff is starting to get on my nerves, and I'm starting to wonder why in the hell I'm paying for so much stuff which is ultimately unmusical and baffling. Rant over! I'll probably give it all another go tomorrow like I always do
Well said Sharke, and I agree. I've complained several times that NI is and will always be my least favorite software synth. Not because of their sounds, but because of how complex they DON'T need to be, yet remain. Their presets are cpu hogs, the interface is a mess and I've had more crashes with their stuff than any plug I own. And....God help you if you own the full version of Kontakt. I was better off when I just had the player. Once I updated to the full version....I was overwhelmed with stuff that in my opinion, made little to no difference while forcing me to read up on a bunch of nothing. Most software, I can really get into it without reading a bible. Ok, some stuff you need to read about to use it in depth. I get that and do it. But some of that NI stuff.....totally uncalled for and it needs to be simplified or removed. Their support is pretty bogus too. But...they do have some good libraries, which is why I keep them around. -Danny
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sharke
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/02 01:03:20
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Magic Russ
sharke
In addition to this, their presets are goddamn awful, let's face it. I have this beef with a lot of soft synth manufacturers but NI really seems to lead the pack in terms of unmusical, unusable presets that you're just never ever going to want to incorporate in a track, even if you're an EDM producer. I know presets are partly there to show off what the synth is capable of, but come on, you have to have a solid core of usable sounds that have stood the test of time and are useful as foundations to tweak into your own variations.
I don't agree, at least not for all of their synths. For example on Monark, there are plenty of presets resembling classic tracks. You've got a couple ELP ones, a "Follow You, Follow Me" one, a Funkadelic bass patch, and I think one for the saw lead from "Shine on You Crazy Diamond".
Likewise, I am impressed with some of the things they did with Massive. In addition to all the EDM stuff the synth is known for, they have a few good patches for ambient sounds and a few good patches in the "Physical Modeling" category, which obviously aren't PM, but have a similar vibe.
On the other hand, I haven't heard the K11 instruments, so I can't comment on those.
I agree there are one or two good ones on Monark, in fact I love that synth, so easy to get a classic, authentic sound with such simple controls. But that's pretty much the exception. As much as I love Massive - and again it's very easy to get the sound you want via a very well designed interface that's intuitive and logical - the vast majority of the presets are horrible. Let's say you're looking for a modern plucked sound of the kind that's common in modern EDM. You have the MIDI part all programmed and playing on a loop and you dial up their "plucked" presets and start going through the list. There's almost nothing there resembling a simple, great sounding plucked synth sound that drops easily into a mix and sounds musical. Almost every preset is totally overdone, and all too often they have oscillators playing intervals that mess with the harmonic meaning of your music and/or way too much modulation going on. I just think every synth should have a clearly defined set of classic, elemental sounds from which to work from. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to use presets straight out of the box, but it helpful to have a few solid sounding building blocks from which to start from so that you don't have to spend a lot of time building things from scratch - setting up the oscillators, routing them to filters, getting the envelopes and LFO's in the ballpark etc. Like I said, I appreciate that they have to show off the synth by cramming a few "out there" presets into the package. But with NI that's like 95% of their sounds. And to be honest when I'm auditioning them I get the feeling that whomever programmed them doesn't spend a lot of time actually making music.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/02 01:14:41
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Danny Danzi
sharke
I've updated Komplete Ultimate religiously since Komplete 8, albeit always when it was on sale. When I first started out in music production and pretty much knew that it wasn't going to be a short lived hobby, I figured it was the most bang for my buck in terms of what you get, and to be honest, I still think it's great value. But recently certain niggling annoyances about their stuff as a whole have come to a head with me.
The problem I have with them in is their synth and effects products. Their sample libraries are great, I have no trouble with them. But so much of their synths and effects are just plain goofy, by which I mean stupidly over-complicated and terribly documented. The upshot is that unless you have a phd in physics you're very unlikely to understand what in the hell is going on, and you're never going to fully master them.
In addition to this, their presets are goddamn awful, let's face it. I have this beef with a lot of soft synth manufacturers but NI really seems to lead the pack in terms of unmusical, unusable presets that you're just never ever going to want to incorporate in a track, even if you're an EDM producer. I know presets are partly there to show off what the synth is capable of, but come on, you have to have a solid core of usable sounds that have stood the test of time and are useful as foundations to tweak into your own variations. Going through the presets on most NI synths I'm just irritated as hell, and this really became clear to me when I installed Komplete Ultimate 10 and took synths like Rounds and Kontour for a test spin. The presets are just horrible, 99% of them have no musical use whatsoever and seem to be a demonstration of some synth nerd's technical skills more than anything.
Which I wouldn't mind if these synths were intuitive, but they're not. I mean come on, does anyone really understand Prism? It's a great sounding synth (and actually has a handful of half decent sounding presets) but the fact that Groove3 (or anyone else) has never released a video course on it speaks volumes. Nobody knows what in the hell is going on! I once sat down with the manual, determined that I'd learn how it works no matter how long it took me. After a couple of readings I still didn't understand. Same thing with Spark - it's like some convoluted science project with a manual written by someone who hates people and doesn't get out much. No video course for that either. You'd think Native Instruments would release a good set of videos to go along with these instruments, but no - the most you'll ever get out of them is a cheesy 2 minute video with some irritating dubstep music which leaves you none the wiser.
The manuals are so bad I would consider it grounds for a refund. Take Molekular, the "revolutionary" new modular effect unit they rave so much about. It has a lot of wacky effect modules that you'll probably never, ever want to use in a track because they just don't seem to produce anything approaching a musical sound. So why would you ever want to chain 4 of them together, cross modulating everything in their path? Let's say you want to learn about the "Plagiarism" effect. Here's NI's explanation in the manual:
"The input signal’s amplitude is measured using an envelope follower. The measured RMS data
is used to trigger 16 envelopes, which in turn are used to play back 16 “voices.” The voices
are commonly switched between bandpass, sine-wave, or pulse-wave modes. The pitch or center
frequency of each voice is generated from a base pitch plus per-voice offset that is read
from a look-up table with various interval sequences. For example, the 16 voices can be configured
to play the base pitch and its first 15 harmonics as sine waves. In pulse-wave mode,
the envelope is additionally used to modulate pulse width."
Totally understandable right? You totally know where you are from that.
But this is how all of their manuals are written. If you want to learn Spark, or Kontour, or Rounds, that's the kind of blurb you're going to have to slog through - page after page of it. I consider myself reasonably intelligent and know the basics of synthesis and even like a challenge - but come on Native Instruments, have you ever thought about getting a normal, socially functioning person to write your manuals?
Rounds is an interesting sounding synth but the interface seems badly designed and NOT conducive to creativity. Very convoluted workflow and functionality. Now FM8, that's a great synth with a great interface. Monark - can't go wrong with what are basically MiniMoog controls. But this is Native Instruments emulating classic synths that have already been designed for them, and giving them a modern interface. Their other stuff is starting to get on my nerves, and I'm starting to wonder why in the hell I'm paying for so much stuff which is ultimately unmusical and baffling. Rant over! I'll probably give it all another go tomorrow like I always do
Well said Sharke, and I agree. I've complained several times that NI is and will always be my least favorite software synth. Not because of their sounds, but because of how complex they DON'T need to be, yet remain. Their presets are cpu hogs, the interface is a mess and I've had more crashes with their stuff than any plug I own. And....God help you if you own the full version of Kontakt. I was better off when I just had the player. Once I updated to the full version....I was overwhelmed with stuff that in my opinion, made little to no difference while forcing me to read up on a bunch of nothing.
Most software, I can really get into it without reading a bible. Ok, some stuff you need to read about to use it in depth. I get that and do it. But some of that NI stuff.....totally uncalled for and it needs to be simplified or removed. Their support is pretty bogus too. But...they do have some good libraries, which is why I keep them around.
-Danny
Yes Danny I share the same view of Kontakt - I know it's an incredibly powerful sampler but it has a steep learning curve and always seemed to me to be an "all or nothing" kind of thing - either you learn the whole thing properly or you're always going to be confused by what's going on. Doesn't help that the GUI has all these itty bitty controls and labels either. I've read most of the Kontakt manual and to be honest by the time I'm done I've completely forgotten the stuff I learned at the start, lol....same thing when I watched the Groove3 course, which admittedly is great but there's only so much you can do to make it simple, even if you're Eli Krantzberg. I mean to say, when your average young'un hears the word "sampler," they're invariably going to imagine themselves chopping samples and putting beats together, the kind of stuff you'd traditionally do on an Akai. Imagine their surprise when confronted with the "industry standard sampler" Kontakt and they find out that it's actually a pretty big ass deal to get a beat chopped and loaded into it. The learning curve is what they get wrong. Look at Geist, so easy to import a drum loop, get it chopped up perfectly and loaded onto a set of pads. A couple of clicks and you're away! There's a ton more depth if you're up for it, but you're eased into it gently and you don't have to take a freaking course just to get something simple up and running. I love software that has an easy learning curve but tons of hidden depth. That's what being user friendly is all about.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/02 01:19:47
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azslow3
sharke
"The input signal’s amplitude is measured using an envelope follower. The measured RMS data
is used to trigger 16 envelopes, which in turn are used to play back 16 “voices.” The voices
are commonly switched between bandpass, sine-wave, or pulse-wave modes. The pitch or center
frequency of each voice is generated from a base pitch plus per-voice offset that is read
from a look-up table with various interval sequences. For example, the 16 voices can be configured
to play the base pitch and its first 15 harmonics as sine waves. In pulse-wave mode,
the envelope is additionally used to modulate pulse width."
Totally understandable right? You totally know where you are from that.
I do not have NI and I am not an expert in synths. But that explanation make sense for me, I can imagine what sound it is going to produce (without a prove). So it seems like you are right about targeted audience, I am working 20 years close to physics and I have quite some DSP background
I'm actually not knocking that paragraph in isolation because I agree it makes sense technically - but come on, that's their introductory blurb about the effect. Someone who was better with words would find a way to describe the kind of sound it makes before reeling off the math.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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arachnaut
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/02 01:42:38
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sharke
...
The manuals are so bad I would consider it grounds for a refund. Take Molekular, the "revolutionary" new modular effect unit they rave so much about. It has a lot of wacky effect modules that you'll probably never, ever want to use in a track because they just don't seem to produce anything approaching a musical sound. So why would you ever want to chain 4 of them together, cross modulating everything in their path? Let's say you want to learn about the "Plagiarism" effect. Here's NI's explanation in the manual:
"The input signal’s amplitude is measured using an envelope follower. The measured RMS data
is used to trigger 16 envelopes, which in turn are used to play back 16 “voices.” The voices
are commonly switched between bandpass, sine-wave, or pulse-wave modes. The pitch or center
frequency of each voice is generated from a base pitch plus per-voice offset that is read
from a look-up table with various interval sequences. For example, the 16 voices can be configured
to play the base pitch and its first 15 harmonics as sine waves. In pulse-wave mode,
the envelope is additionally used to modulate pulse width."
Totally understandable right? You totally know where you are from that.
But this is how all of their manuals are written. ...
Molekular is not a very good example and it is not a typical manual from NI by any means. It was based on a Kore series of software called Deep Freq and Deep Transformations by Denis Gökdag from SSFX (now with Zynaptiq). In that original manual Denis describes 3 presets in great detail and then concludes that to describe them all would take a 150 page manual that would leave the reader brain-dead. The presets that came with Molekular are not very good in my opinion. Simon Stockhausen has a much better set on his patchpool web site. I made a few presets for the user library and, having spent a few weeks, decided that it was way too much work - I would just make a preset whenever I thought I needed one. Getting a bunch of stuff to morph properly is very difficult, far more difficult in Molekular than Skanner (which also has dynamic morphing). But just making a single preset is much easier. No matter what instrument or effect I buy, I usually am lucky to find 5 or 10 useful presets that fit my taste. The rest are just starting points for my own preset. To get back to Molekular. I've found that knowing how some effect, like Plagiarism, is designed, MIGHT help you use it. But in my experience, nothing beats twiddling the knobs, fooling around, and discovering for oneself how to make it work for them. Here is one of Denis' patch description for a Plagiarism patch. I put in only the image, not the text description as an example.  Later in the manual there is a description of the design of Plagiarism that is over 5 pages long. I looked at it once - I'd never read it.  Also, in my opinion, you tend to get the best advice by asking questions on the Reaktor (or other NI) User Forum. From the various types of questions we see there it appears that very few ever crack open a manual.
post edited by arachnaut - 2015/10/02 02:11:40
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BassDaddy
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/02 10:57:06
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I still have Deep Freq and Deep Trans from Kore and that's very interesting they are related to the newer Molekular. Thanks for getting that info out.
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arachnaut
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/02 11:36:49
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BassDaddy
I still have Deep Freq and Deep Trans from Kore and that's very interesting they are related to the newer Molekular. Thanks for getting that info out.
Not just related, all the DEEP XXX Reaktor parts were extracted and optimized in Reaktor Core and a few newer ones were added. Since the original Deep presets used parts of Guitar Rig and Kore instruments, it is not possible to make exact emulations in Reaktor alone, but the idea is the same - make the ultimate effects synthesizer with morphing presets. I started a thread about Molekular a while back in the NI forums: https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/molekular-compared-to-kore-deep-series.218096/ and I asked Denis about the development of it on muffwigglers: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1528713 In 2011 when Kore was Killed, I asked Denis: " Denis, I have used your 3 Kore Deep xxx packages for a long time. It is a shame that your product can no longer be sold through NI. I was wondering about the Reaktor ensembles. Do you intend to make them available for purchase separately? If not, would you consider making them available for use in the Reaktor User Library? I would be willing to help you (or do it for you). Best wishes, " And he replied in a longish note which I won't repeat, but he ended with this cryptic hint about Molekular: "Please don't post them to the user lib btw, I have considered that myself but decided that I don't want to do that at this point. There may yet be life in them in some incarnation ;-)"
post edited by arachnaut - 2015/10/02 11:50:50
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mudgel
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/03 07:21:53
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If you have the NI fx and haven't used them, you're really missing out on some really good plugs.
I forget to use them as they just don't seem mainstream, but then I remember I have them and am pleasantly surprised by their quality emulations.
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cclarry
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/03 08:30:49
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mudgel
If you have the NI fx and haven't used them, you're really missing out on some really good plugs.
I forget to use them as they just don't seem mainstream, but then I remember I have them and am pleasantly surprised by their quality emulations.
They're done by Softube...which should speak for itself...
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stevec
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/03 10:13:08
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Are we talking about the FX in regular or Ultimate? I have regular K9 so am curious what to look for next time around.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Why Native Instruments kinda sucks
2015/10/03 10:14:42
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cclarry
mudgel
If you have the NI fx and haven't used them, you're really missing out on some really good plugs.
I forget to use them as they just don't seem mainstream, but then I remember I have them and am pleasantly surprised by their quality emulations.
They're done by Softube...which should speak for itself...
That makes sense, they are the only plugins where I can't move the user presets to another location (setting via the registry).
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