Rhytenow
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Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
First off, I'm a newbie who's probably going to upgrade to Sonar X2. I'm going to be recording soon and I'm going to be recording drums. I know about the split notes to tracks cal and I was planning on using that for my drums because I'll be using BFD for my drums and I want to edit my drums before I bounce them to audio. I would like to know the benefit or just the difference of recording using the multiple audio outs in BFD as opposed to using the split notes to track method?
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mudgel
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/18 17:04:25
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You can edit and write all MIDI data on one track as each percussion instrument is differentiated by note.
In an acoustic space ie audio, each percussion instrument may need different fx and processing, eg a cymbal will need different fx and processing than a snare or toms.
With Seperate audio tracks for each you are free to manipulate each one as you want or need.
Send them to busses then to group like sounds and then bus those busses to a drum master bus. Gives you incredible flexibility for later when you come to mix.
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John
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/18 17:23:23
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Mike is right but I would add that you can't mix drums recorded to a single track. With multiple tracks you can adjust pan and volume for each.
True you can do this with the MIDI but its better and more versatile with the audio.
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bitflipper
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/18 18:09:06
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Using BFD's internal routing just saves you some steps. There is no benefit to splitting a recorded MIDI track when you're using a synth like BFD. That would only be necessary if you're using separate synths for each instrument or separate MIDI channels for each instrument, such as with a drum sampler that doesn't support multiple audio outputs. Keeping all the drums in one MIDI track makes editing easier.
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Rhytenow
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/18 21:01:19
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Forgive my ignorance but if I did it this way I would still be able to use the staff view and piano roll view? I guess I'm a little hesitant to use the stereo outs because I'm not sure if I'll have the same flexibility for quantizing as I would if I kept it in midi?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 02:04:20
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The MIDI track in isn't affected by the synths routing out.
You can use a single MIDI track for all of the drum line i.e. each drum, then route them out to their own audio outs for total individual control of each drum from simple like volume and pan to more complex such as EQ and Compression.
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twaddle
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 05:37:06
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I'm with bitflipper in that with BFD2 there is really only one reason you might want to route it's channels in to sonars mixer and that would be to use effects that you can't find in BFD2.
Having said that I think the effects and the mixer combined in BFD2 are one of it's strongest features but I do occasionally route a snare or something out if I can't find what I want in the BFD2 effects.
Also, although every single parameter within BFD2 can be automated (including all effects parameters) automation is a little easier when using other effects in sonar.
Steve
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 08:31:23
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So you have more control over each drum.
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Maarkr
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 10:01:46
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You want to split the tracks to make it easier to sidechain the kick to the basslines, useful in dance mixes or heavy bass songs where you want the kick to come thru.
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guitartrek
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 10:23:58
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Midi - I've found the best way - for me - is to keep all drum midi in one track. It makes it easier to edit than if drums were split into multiple midi tracks.
As for the audio - I've found the best - for me - is to rout the drums into separate tracks in X1. You certainly can do this within BFD, but doing it in X1 makes effects routing, sends, automation, etc. the same as other non-drum tracks. So during mixing you're not having to open BFD's interface each time you want to make an adjustment. You just stay in Sonar as you go back and forth between all the tracks.
In summary - one midi track and multiple audio tracks.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 10:40:02
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In summary - one midi track and multiple audio tracks. This makes the most sense to me as well... I wouldn't want to be limited to BFD's internal EFX/routing.
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konradh
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 11:10:14
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Although it may not be 100% realistic, most people use way less reverb on the kick than on the other drums (and sometimes zero). I use ProChannel EQ differently on each drum.
That said, I often combine toms on one stereo track and pan them in the drum plug in, but I know CJ and others will disagree with that. My set-up for audio tracks is usually 1-kick, 2-snare/sidstick, 3-hi-hat, 4-toms (stereo), 5-cymbals (stereo), 6-other perc (stereo). Although this layout began with tape when tracks were limited, even with unlimited tracks I dislike the clutter of tracks I don't really need. My console shows 8 active tracks at a time and I don't see the need for 5 tom tracks and 6 cymbal tracks.
I normally keep MIDI separate to make editing easier, but sometimes use a single MIDI track. Depends on your workflow.
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guitartrek
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 11:42:30
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konradh
My set-up for audio tracks is usually 1-kick, 2-snare/sidstick, 3-hi-hat, 4-toms (stereo), 5-cymbals (stereo), 6-other perc (stereo). Although this layout began with tape when tracks were limited, even with unlimited tracks I dislike the clutter of tracks I don't really need.
That's similar to how I do it too. I only have about 8 drum audio tracks - Kick, Snare, HH, Toms (all combined), OH, Room, Ride, other. I don't like too much clutter. However, combining the Toms presents another issue in that I can't EQ each tom in Sonar. I like to high pass the "mud" out of each tom, and each tom has a different thud frequency. So I use EQ in Superior (don't use BFD, but same concept) for each Tom.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 11:55:26
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I go even further, because BFD exposes all the individual microphones:
Stereo Room
Stereo Overheads
Stereo Amb 3
Kick In
Kick Out
Kick Sub
Snare Top 1
Snare Top 2
Snare Bottom
Hi Hat
Tom 1
Tom 2
Tom 3
Tom 4
Tom 5
Tom 6
Crash 1
Crash 2
Crash 3
China Crash
Splash
Ride
This scenario opens up some interesting mix possibilities
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Kenneth
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 12:53:52
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I do the same with individual drums from Steven Slate drums in kontakt, then bus toms, hihats, cymbals etc.., then all buses into a final drum bus. Sooner or later you want to treat something on its own or slap some compression on everything and you have so much more control + it's easier to deal with pan/eq/vol etc.. finetuning from the console than going into a plugin and messing with it. I think I'm at 16 tracks for drums/cymbals and 4 buses or so.
There doesn't seem to be much overhead routing everything into individual tracks so why not?
I just wish folders worked in the console so you could just fold the drums to un-clutter all those tracks.
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konradh
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 13:04:20
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Understand about EQing toms individually. I guess the particular sounds I have been using plus the type of music has not made this necessary for me lately.
Everyone will scream when I say this, but when I was cutting live drums—a rare occassion these days—I would EQ toms on the way in (in the input channel strip) to remove major problems, then tweak EQ in respect to the mix later.
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guitartrek
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 13:56:32
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Kenneth
I just wish folders worked in the console so you could just fold the drums to un-clutter all those tracks.
+100
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twaddle
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 14:08:29
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CJaysMusic
So you have more control over each drum.
This depends a great deal n what your using as your drums. Since we're talking BFD2 I don't see that you get any more control over it by routing it out to your sequencer. In many respects I think the BFD2 mixer is a lot better than sonars. Steve
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twaddle
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 14:12:46
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guitartrek
Kenneth
I just wish folders worked in the console so you could just fold the drums to un-clutter all those tracks.
+100
Absolutely 1000% If sonar X2 doesn't have this (and I've seen nothing to suggest it has) I'll be quite disappointed. Steve
post edited by twaddle - 2012/09/19 16:02:25
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konradh
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 14:56:47
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I am not familiar with BFD other than demos on its site; however, the only caution for me is the possibility that a plug-in will quit working. For that reason, I like to capture separate audio tracks so I always have a remix option.
Sounds like I am being overly cautious, but right now Electri6ity, Acoustic Legends HD, and RealLPC are all non-functional. (The first two due to a Vir2 update a tech did without asking me. RealLPC issue is caused by confusion in how a tech set up VST folders.) I also cannot find Andy Johns drums—no explanation for that one.
This will all eventually get resolved, but, in the meantime, I am glad I have audio tracks.
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chuckebaby
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Re:Why Use Multiple Audio Outs For Drums?
2012/09/19 15:14:52
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konradh
I am not familiar with BFD other than demos on its site; however, the only caution for me is the possibility that a plug-in will quit working. For that reason, I like to capture separate audio tracks so I always have a remix option.
Sounds like I am being overly cautious, but right now Electri6ity, Acoustic Legends HD, and RealLPC are all non-functional. (The first two due to a Vir2 update a tech did without asking me. RealLPC issue is caused by confusion in how a tech set up VST folders.) I also cannot find Andy Johns drums—no explanation for that one.
This will all eventually get resolved, but, in the meantime, I am glad I have audio tracks.
same here,as far as bfd is concerned i dare not try to explain with twaddle here :) but to answer your question,every instrument is fighting for space and sometimes a good mix comes down to 1-2 instruments fighting too much for that space. when one of them is a kick or a snare....its almost impossible to throw an EQ on a main drums mix and hope to settle down one or the other,though sometimes you may get lucky and will.mixing complex sessions,dont always bet on it.
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