Helpful ReplyWhy didn't anyone ever mention!!!

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davdud101
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2013/10/04 06:22:18 (permalink)

Why didn't anyone ever mention!!!

I finally found out about subtractive eqing... All this time I've been cutting the low, but boosting the highs and sweeping the top tenth! Ik, I'm late to the party!
Where can I find some tips on using subtractive eq to make my mixing work a bit more in my favor? And any tips and tricks here?

 
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/04 08:09:22 (permalink)
Less is more.
 
I think everyone starts out using additive EQ, and at some point, they either hear someone speak about subtractive EQ or figure it out on their own..... and start using it.
 
If you read between the lines of the posts of quite a few of the people here, you will see that they do speak about using subtractive EQ quite often. Probably more from the POV that it's a "given" that others know it and therefore it goes unmentioned in the main discussion, but the clues are there in the conversation.
 
I have heard it in many places including here. I learned it...well I heard about it back in the "live band gigging" days.... it came as advice from the guy in the sound department at the music store when we were buying some rack gear.... keep the EQ flat to start with and try not to increase the frequency bands much above the center position. Pull down the offending frequencies rather than boosting the non-offending frequencies..... it's easier.
 
Of course, we told the sound man for our band, who, due to his lack of knowledge, proceeded to make the 1/3rd graphic look like a silhouette of a mountain range.  everyone has to learn.
 
 
As far as advice.... most good sound/mixing books will cover this issue..... the other is to set everything in your channels to FLAT... or default (which in Ozone and others is flat in the center) and don't take anything above the center..... play with the track soloed and only pull things down..... listen to it in the context of the mix..... experiment some more and you will learn.  Once you develope the ears to hear the offending frequencies, and begin to know what to listen for, it's actually OK to use additive EQ as well.... it's not a crime. At this point, I don't think about it as Additive vs Subtractive... I simply think about it as EQ. Whatever I think is needed to make the sound like I imagine it should sound.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2013/10/04 08:14:08

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#2
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/04 08:19:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby MIDIMINDS 2013/10/15 22:29:33
Boost away.
 
Cutting is fine too.
 
The only time you have to worry about boosting being a problem is if you are using one of those super duper analog modeling EQs that add noise when you boost.
 
The regular old digital EQs can boost with no worries.
 
If anyone mentions the word "flat" to you... you should immediately consider what they mean by "flat".
 
"Flat" as an aesthetic is a hold over from stereo and hi-fi enthusiasm where by you hope to reproduce exactly what the record producer hoped you would experience.
 
As soon as you put up a microphone and start recording your own stuff you'll start dealing with the reality that there is no "flat" in the production process. Your choice of microphone, your choice of location, your choice of mic positioning, your choice of instrument... all of that stuff interacts and creates a unique EQ curve from the very start and you will be manipulating the EQ through out the production process.
 
Cuts are very effective for clearing out the overall sound so that is a good reason to use them... it is easy to accumulate a massive amount of lower mids when you sum all the tracks into a mix... so cuts are a great way to trim down the excess. On the other hand, a boost on a upper mid and a overall lowering of the output level of any source track gets you in the same ball park.
 
With digital EQs and high resolution mix buses it hardly matters how you get the sound you want.
 
If you have one of those super duper analog modeled EQs you may even be hoping to hear the noise as you boost.
 
Most of the advice you'll read was designed by teachers who assumed their students were inept so they defined safety guidelines that allow for fixing and mix rescue later on. If you just do what you think sounds good and look forward you'll keep your project pointed in the right direction. When so few people had such limited time on gear it may have seemed useful to have arbitrary and arcane safe guidelines. Now that almost everyone has access to first hand experience it seems more useful to encourage people to gather more and more first hand experience. So, try focusing on cuts for a while as a learning experience but don't let that make you shy away from using a boost when you feel it's just the thing for your project.
 
It's all good.
 
best regards,
mike
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by mike_mccue - 2013/10/04 08:20:35


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Jeff Evans
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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/04 08:44:22 (permalink)
Here is an interesting SOS article on EQ. looks like a general good read:
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec08/articles/eq.htm
 
The thing as mentioned in the article too is that a narrow boost for example is a most unnatural sound. But a narrow cut or notch is almost inaudible. Same could be said for broad boosting a small amount. That will be very audible but a shallow broad cut is much less noticeable.
 
It could be said that cutting is somewhat more natural than boosting. Some EQ's may actually work and sound better in cut mode as well. Although I tend to agree with Mike in that these days they are much better.
 
When you cut anything you will tend to lose level as a result so when you are into cutting you have to be prepared to increase the gain. Boosting often results in increase in gain so the signal will have to be lowered in some cases.
 
What takes practice and skill is knowing when to cut rather than boost. There will always be a tendency to boost first but often it is only a simple cut in one area that can create the illusion that all the other areas are being boosted especially after the gain is adjusted upward to suit. It is faster and often sounds better as a result. If you feel you need to boost say three or four areas of the spectrum then reconsider and perhaps try cutting the area you think is right and apply gain instead.
 
One area that can fool people is when the bass is too excessive. (say in a mix) It is easy to think the mids and highs need to be boosted to match the bottom end but cut the low end instead and the mids and highs will just naturally get louder. Once again you will lose some level but easily put back in with some gain added. So now you have boosted two areas without any boosting at all, just a little cut instead.
 
Other articles of interest:
 
http://www.hometracked.com/2008/01/31/eq-cut-narrow-boost-wide/
 
http://therecordingrevolution.com/2011/12/12/subtractive-eq-will-make-your-mixes-better/
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar08/articles/qa0308_4.htm
 
http://kimlajoie.wordpress.com/2009/09/07/eq-cutting-vs-boosting/
 
 
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/10/04 08:57:45

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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/04 09:14:23 (permalink)
Far more significant than the boosting versus cutting question are the twin concepts of masking and complementary equalization.
 
When two sounds share the same "space", either occurring at the same time or having overlapping frequency content, the quieter of the two becomes more difficult to perceive. That's masking. 
 
When an instrument becomes "lost in the mix" you don't necessarily just turn it up, you find out what's masking it and reduce the conflicting frequencies in whatever track is doing the masking. IOW, when two things are fighting for the attention of your ear, turning one of them down will achieve the same result as turning the other one up.


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Jeff Evans
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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/04 09:44:20 (permalink)
All aspects of EQ are important. What I am talking about is more about a single sound and boosting vs cutting can make a big difference there. It is well worth practicing. It impacts on the quality of tracks, buses and the stereo mix.
 
What Dave is taking about is also important in what happens when two or three parts are all arriving at the same time on a buss and they all share a very similar EQ, masking comes into play.
 
What could be even more important than EQ however is shutting up parts in the right spots so you can clearly hear others behind. That is the ultimate way to make any part clearer. The ear loves things coming in and going out.

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batsbrew
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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/04 10:31:01 (permalink)
i use narrow cuts all the time.
 
i hear them, then i use Waves PAZ to fine tune it.
http://www.waves.com/plugins/paz-analyzer
 
i never do boosts unless they are wide, and rarely more than 2db anywhere.
 
if your tracks are boomy, fix it at the source.
if your tracks are trebly, fix it at the source, and move the mics
if your room sounds crappy, go to a better room, and only close mic
if you use samples, carve freely with great prejudice!!
 
but always consider all tracks together, never solo to eq a track.
that is chasing your tail.
 

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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/04 13:56:42 (permalink)
I guess the entire point I was trying to make is use as little EQ as is possible to get the tone and quality you need. Whether it's boosted or cut, use it sparingly.
 
If you find you are having to use drastic levels of EQ in either direction, you should go back to how that sound was recorded in the first place and start to fix it at the source.

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dubdisciple
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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/04 14:10:09 (permalink)
There was a cakewalk blog post about a year ago in regards to subtractive eq if you wanted to see something from a sonar tools perspective. I will look for it.
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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/04 20:44:31 (permalink)
Subtractive is just a term as additive. You either add color or subtract it. Anyway too much of anything is too much. Moderation in EQ also.
 
Zero points are important. Slope is important. What is not important is perhaps your hearing.
At the end it was all subjective as well as objective in the sounds you hear.
You only hear as you hear, not as anyone else hears.
 

 
 
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/07 14:14:50 (permalink)
In my world, you simply capture the best sound you can before you touch a thing. Most of my recordings have very little eq going on because I got the sound right at the source. The most I do is high pass, low pass add or take away mids if needed. Sometimes I don't need to low pass....sometimes my mids are fine, other times a little mid push is good.
 
But the main thing to remember here is...if you are spending loads of time with eq, you may not have recorded a good sound this time. On the other side of the fence, sometimes a really good sound can mask with other sounds. Especially low end instruments like kick drums and bass guitar. If you have two great sounds that are sharing the same frequency, they can cancel each other out so you may need to do some eq tweaking here on the low end. Go in with a game-plan. Decide whether you want a kick drum with a bit more beater attack or a bit more of a thud. This answers what your bass should sound like. For example...
 
If you like thuddy, boomy kick drums, you can get away with a bass guitar or synth that has less low end in it that may also be a bit more percussive with a little more clack in it so to speak. Now let's reverse it. If you want a kick drum that has a little more beater attack and less thud, you can get away with a bass or synth bass that has more low end "ooom" to it and then these instruments will not mask each other.
 
Watch for keys and guitars as they share a similar mid range frequency than can wash each other out.
 
My rule of thumb for eq-ing:
 
If you hear too much low end, lower the low end. Do NOT raise highs to compensate.
 
If you hear too much high end, lower the high end. Do NOT raise lows.
 
Always try to be a cutter at all times unless there is a specific need to boost. The reason being, the more you boost, the more you may pick up some noise depending on how the sound was recorded. Over time, you will learn when something is right, when you need to cut and when you need to boost.
 
I don't say the above to mean "don't ever boost!" I say it meaning....8 out of 10 times, cutting fixes problems and boosting is for sweeting things with a little icing on the cake so to speak. At least that's how it is for me. There are effects out there that actually enhance when you boost the heck out of them though, so in those situations, boosting to the extreme can actually help. A prime example of this would be if you had a Manley Massive Passive. That eq can be slammed all the way up and won't ruin your instrument when the right frequencies are accentuated. It actually gives it a different color having it jacked like that. The software version works nearly identical to the hardware version....so it's just "one of those eq's".
 
But do your best to cut when you can while you come up in the ranks of the recording realm. Honest when I tell you, you'll know in time when it's right to boost. I'll give you a few instances...
 
If we had a twangy, 60's wah (think Shaft) type funk guitar that was super thin sounding (which those guitars are meant to sound that way so they cut through the mix) to thicken it up a bit, we could boost low mids to mid-mids a bit to make it a bit bigger in sound size. Now, you may not want to do that with this particular guitar because like I said, it's supposed to be a bit thin sounding.....but if you wanted to thicken it due to it being thin, this is a time you would boost.
 
If you had a bass guitar that was rattling your windows, this would be a good time to cut lows if need be AFTER you've high passed the offending frequency. Most bass guitar sounds do not need a lot of low end and they usually can benefit from having low mids cut a bit so the bass has an identity within the mix instead of it just sounding like a low vibration that has no texture. Remember, bass guitar has less low end than you think. What you hear in songs with low end is the combination of kick drum and bass guitar (along with the other instruments) adding to the over-all low end. Add in the song being mastered and even more low end comes from "everything."
 
If you had a vocal that sounds sibilent and thin, low passing, de-essing (which is just a plug device that controls high end ssssss sounds etc) and lowering highs can improve the vocal. If it's too thin, the mids can come up a bit to thicken but watch out here or you can make them mid-range congested and boxy if you're not careful. But a cut here in the high end will do wonders while a slight boost in the mids can make the voice a little thicker. Just don't over do it.
 
If you had a keyboard or some big piano sound that was ruining your mix...sometimes you don't know what to do to fix it. Most of the really nice piano's come out of the box sounding so incredible, you don't want to touch the eq on them. However, you have to because if you don't, they will walk all over everything. You shouldn't have to conform your mix to one instrument. The one instrument should conform to the core mix.
 
So this piano is walking all over everything. Width is important. These "out of the box" incredible piano's are huge in both sound size and the width they take up. Trim the width a bit with a Sonitus phase plug or use the piano software width control if it exists. You'll need to cut mids here...anywhere from 300 to about 900 Hz. That's a huge span....I know. I'm not saying cut that entire range, I'm saying....you'll be cutting somewhere in there depending on the piano sound. This will thin it out a bit and allow it to sit in the mix.
 
Don't be afraid to automate your eq's. An "all alone" sound can be what you want it to be when that instrument plays all by itself. You can have an eq set for that when it's alone. When it plays with the other instruments though, you'll need to make changes so they all work together as a team and nothing is masking or silencing another instrument.
 
And lastly, sometimes an instrument will not sound good when you solo it up after you've eq'd. Don't let that scare you. Don't get me wrong, it shouldn't sound terrible, but it may be a sound that you don't particularly like if you solo that instrument up. You've eq'd it to be in a mix with other instruments, so this is why it may not knock your socks off when it's alone. This is why you automate and make sounds that are all alone "awesome sounding" and then when they are in a mix with others, they literally work as a team. Hope this helps....good luck.
 
-Danny 
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2013/10/07 14:18:10

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Randy P
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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/07 15:09:52 (permalink)
I received some interesting advice years ago, and have tried to pass it on ever since. Not many folks understand how much is really going on in a single track. Whether it's guitars, bass, vocals, etc. Here's the best way I've found to find out what's really going on in there, and how to clean it up and find the essential frequencies of a particular track. Run the track solo'd through a graphic eq, but before hitting play, pull all the faders on the eq to the bottom. Hit play, and start at the left of the eq, and slowly pull the fader up until you hear something. Does it sound complementary to the track, or is it dull noise? If it sounds good, note the mark, and pull it back down to zero. Repeat throughout the spectrum of the eq. Once you've gone through the spectrum, move the complementary bands up and play with those alone until you hear what you want. Note the prevalent band (where the meat of the instrument or vocal is) and write it down. That's the frequency that your other tracks will need stay away from.
 
Since I started using this method, my mixes have been so much easier to work with, and sound so much cleaner. After awhile you won't have to go through the entire process with each track. You'll know what to do with a bass track, a kick track, etc. Each song is different, and you'll still need to do some tweaking, but this method should help you get there quicker and with less frustration.
 
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davdud101
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Re: Why didn't anyone ever mention!!! 2013/10/08 06:19:04 (permalink)
Danny, thanks a bunch! That really puts the method into perspective! One point that really stood out is that after the eq, an instrument might not sound so great solo'd. I'll definitely come back and reread this thread, probably compile my knowledge so I can put it to work ASAP.

Randy, as soon as I started reading, my mind clicked; "this is gonna be useful." I am going to love giving that method a shot, I just know it! Now I'm eager to get back in the studio and start trying stuff!

Thanks to everyone who replied so far! Like I said, I'll be re-reading the whole thread and compiling the important information. (Is there any way to save threads?)

 
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