Why isn't there more hype about SONAR and touchscreens?!

So I wandered into Best Buy over the holidays and picked up a $300 HP 23tm multitouch touchscreen.  I'd recently purchased the outstanding $49 "V Control Pro" app for my iPad, but found that the iPad doesn't have quite enough screen real estate for larger plugins (for example Diva).  I figured, what the hell--despite the somewhat lukewarm reviews out there for touchscreens and Sonar (or any other DAW for that matter), I'd try out the touchscreen with Sonar X3.  Mind you, I'm on Windows 7 so I can't even take advantage of multitouch yet...it's single touch all the way for me until I get the courage to plunge into Windows 8.
 
That said...WOW!!  I set the touchscreen flat at about a 70 degree angle in a way so that I could still see my existing, conventional screen behind it, and at a slightly larger resolution than 1900x1080 I've got all of my plugins (including the massive Diva window LOL) available on what is effectively a massive 23" ipad touch controller.  On most plugins the onscreen controls are plenty big--this is particularly true for softsynths that aren't overly complex (think Diva, Monark, or other relatively vanilla subtractive synths--on Monark in particular the knobs are almost half-dollar size), plus just about any effects plugin (most comps for example are just a few knobs).  Parametric EQs, while a smidge more finicky, are a blast because you're just dragging the curves.   
 
The bottom line is that it's made my plugins a blast to use--the touchscreen is almost like a dedicated controller that instantly morphs/customizes itself perfectly to whatever is on screen.  There's an immediacy to everything that was lacking previously.  It's enough of a qualitative difference that I'm finding myself using more of my plugins, more often (especially ones with clunky or daunting interfaces.)  As to why the process feels so much better, I think it's a couple of things: 1) you can set the screen resolution so that the plugins fill most of the screen and 2) there are actually far fewer physical steps to a touch screen than mouseclicks (if you think about it, using a mouse to adjust a plugin parameter arguably takes five discrete steps: look down and move your hand to the mouse, look up and move the mouse pointer to the plugin control, press the mouse button, drag the control, release the mouse button...by comparison a drag of a finger along a touch screen feels like only one or two steps).
 
Granted some aspects work better than others --I'm not tossing my mouse entirely mind you, and (like Sonar) I kind of feel that touchscreens should augment (rather than 100% replace) one's existing controllers.  Some examples:

• I'm not aware yet of a way to simulate right-clicking, which is important on some plugins (for example, Massive with its very tiny boxes for modulation routings--this still requires a mouse right-click).
• "tapping" very tiny on/off controls or selection buttons takes some getting used to (at least on my particular touchscreen with Windows 7 single touch...maybe it's different on Windows 8).  I've gotten much better at it once I figured out that it's more of a very slight "swipe" motion rather than a tap (again, this is single touch we're talking about here).
• there are some actions that still make more sense with a mouse.  If you're scrolling through softsynth presets, continuously clicking in the same spot (or pressing the same button on a midi controller for patch change) makes more sense.
• In single touch, there are some seemingly random touch actions that seem unavailable, presumably due to the app you're trying to modify.  For example in Sonar (and again this is *single* touch...i'm guessing this is resolved in multitouch based on YouTube vids of Sonar in Windows 8), I can't drag individual faders in the console view or the Inspector window...instead I end up dragging the entire console or inspector up and down.

But the bottom line here is that (for me anyway) my workflow feels already vastly improved...and this is under less than ideal circumstances (still getting used to it/Win7 and single touch rather than multitouch) on a technology that's still evolving.  Based on even just this initial experience, it's hard to imagine touchscreens not having a pretty massive impact on how people work in the future.  I could see touchscreens wreaking complete havoc with the controller market (particularly the low- and mid-range options, i.e.e everything below the Icon/Nuage range).  I say this as a PT HD owner with a large and oft-used Control 24 sitting in my project studio.  I love tactile knobs and faders as much as anyone, but you can already get 23" touchscreens for a relatively disposable $200 (Hannsprees are at this price), and they have the advantage of being essentially instantly and perfectly customizable to whatever is on screen.  Plus they're "vendor-agnostic" (unlike my Control 24, which will soon be a doorstop once I have to move off of PTHD 10).  I could easily see myself in a couple of years without any major hardware controller, but rather with 2 (or more!) oversized touch screens, one for my console view and one just for plugins.
 
Anyway I just thought I'd post in detail about this, since when I researched the topic on google it seemed like there was more speculation and opinion rather than people actually trying touchscreens and reporting back on what did and didn't work.  I also suspect that some of the online reports are a bit dated -- for example I'm using X3 and a $300 23" touchscreen, neither of which may have been available a year ago (or six months ago for that matter).  
 
Would love to hear from others working in Sonar with touchscreens (in particular, with Win8/multitouch, since that's my next move :)
 
 
 

Yeah I saw the promotional vids by Cakewalk...by "hype" I meant more user/forum hype than organization-led hype.  Frankly the *user* feedback (even on this forum) seemed kind of lukewarm.  (I dunno, maybe there are a ton of silent Sonar X/touchscreen users out there that just don't post about their experiences).
 
Anyway, my initial response was so unexpectedly positive that I just wanted to share ;)
 
 

Interesting post. I hope you post more often. 

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
We made a lot of noise about last year.

I think the initial lukewarm response to Windows 8 might have gotten in the way. When I checked out Sonar with a touchscreen, I thought it was great - once I figured out the best screen placement was like a conventional mixer. To me, the coolest aspect is that it allows an efficient two-handed workflow.
 

When it comes to consumers I think touchscreens with desktops are going the same way as MP3 players. Most people didn't care about MP3 players until the iPod turned up (figured that sort of thing was only for nerds). I remember people laughing at me with my MP3 player saying it was a rubbish concept, and then a year later they were walking around with white cables in their ears.
 
Touchscreens and desktops/laptops really haven't been pushed when it comes to marketing. Most people don't really realise (or care) about touchscreens on their desktops because all the marketing money has been spent on tablets, and in fact a lot of them care less about their own desktop or laptop, preferring to replace it with a fondle slab.
 
Like it or not desktops are dying for the ordinary consumer market and that's gotta hurt.

If you could only pull the bugs out of the program with a touch screen.
 
I know I'm dreaming.
 
After all Christmas also comes next year.

Probably best to go to HP forums for that:
http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/TouchSmart-PC/how-to-add-second-monitor-to-hp-envy-recline/td-p/3092851
 
Remember if you are using USB that takes up bandwidth.

I'm not aware yet of a way to simulate right-clicking, which is important on some plugins (for example, Massive with its very tiny boxes for modulation routings--this still requires a mouse right-click).

 
If you hold down your finger, it becomes a right click.
 
 
Actually having recently picked up an inexpensive ASUS Windows 8.1 tablet, I was thinking it would be really cool if Sonar would allow a touch-centric "remote window interface" which could exist either on a locally attached touchscreen or on a networked device like a tablet.
 
I know there are remote control apps for various devices, but being able to put (copies of) specific parts of Sonar's interface on my tablet would be unbelievably useful and cool.

I have enjoyed having a touch screen. I've had it for around a year now and it's been fun.
 
The fact that there are things I can't do with the screen pulls me back to the mouse. I think that once we can really do everything with touch it will help speed things up. I can't work with envelopes at all using touch. I can automate faders and write enable tracks, but ...
 
That said, I do plenty of sessions where I never touch the screen. I'm most likely to use touch when I'm playing my guitar. It's the same time I use my alpha track. When I sit down to mix, I often lean back and relax... mouse in hand.
 
I will say that when I do busy sessions where I bring the non-touch TV up from the bedroom, I get lots of smudges on the TV from trying to touch things. :-)
 
A second touch screen is on the list, but not that high on the list.

drewfx1

I'm not aware yet of a way to simulate right-clicking, which is important on some plugins (for example, Massive with its very tiny boxes for modulation routings--this still requires a mouse right-click).

 
If you hold down your finger, it becomes a right click.
 
 
Actually having recently picked up an inexpensive ASUS Windows 8.1 tablet, I was thinking it would be really cool if Sonar would allow a touch-centric "remote window interface" which could exist either on a locally attached touchscreen or on a networked device like a tablet.
 
I know there are remote control apps for various devices, but being able to put (copies of) specific parts of Sonar's interface on my tablet would be unbelievably useful and cool.

Yeah still Win7 here (single touch).  Good to know though about the right click in Win8 touchscreens.
 
The app you're describing already exists to some extent, but it's in the Apple universe.  "V-Control Pro".  It's $50 and for what it does it's brilliant.  It has two parts -- one is a mixer/transport view with jog wheel and bankable fader groups (thereis a Sonar template incldued), and the other is something called "V window" which basically copies any floating window you select to the iPad.  It connects via wifi.  
 
My only problem with it was that the iPad was slightly too small to really cover enough real estate for certain plugins.

mettelus
I am having a hard time envisioning touch screens taking off... the resolution of a "touch" is not great (limiting controls available), and ergonomic concerns would give OSHA a hay-day... not to mention my monitors are not even close enough to be touched... (I think my mom warned me sitting too close would make me blind... no wait, that was something else!)
 
As a secondary controller, perhaps, but I still have a hard time envisioning it being adopted readily. Win8 made me cringe right out of the chute because it came across as a "giant cell phone." I am not sure if I can ever get passed that first impression. Then again, I come from a background of high end gaming and spike 300 APM (actions per minutes), so that may be where I am holding the comparison. I guess the proof is in the pudding, so will see.
 
But then again... "Wii SONAR" would have a physical fitness twist to it...

I imagine if you kept a touch screen in the regular monitor position, you'd have a herniated disk in your neck in about a week.  It needs to go in the convetional mixer position (as Craig mentioned earlier) -- right in front of you, so that it sits almost where a QWERTY keyboard normally sits so that your hands almost fall on top of it in a relaxed position.  I use a keyboard pullout shelf thingy to keep the normal keyboard available, sort of below the touch screen.
 
I use a ton of synth and processing plugins.  I set the resolution a bit larger than the 1900x1080, so the controls are nice and chunky.  It's slightly fiddly every once in a while, but overall it's been great.  
 
I confess I haven't used the 'pure' mixing functions (console view/faders) as I don't have multitouch yet.  Still Win7 here (no giant cell phone lol).  But based on my initial experience I'll be upgrading soon.
 
 

lillloyd

drewfx1

I'm not aware yet of a way to simulate right-clicking, which is important on some plugins (for example, Massive with its very tiny boxes for modulation routings--this still requires a mouse right-click).

 
If you hold down your finger, it becomes a right click.
 
 
Actually having recently picked up an inexpensive ASUS Windows 8.1 tablet, I was thinking it would be really cool if Sonar would allow a touch-centric "remote window interface" which could exist either on a locally attached touchscreen or on a networked device like a tablet.
 
I know there are remote control apps for various devices, but being able to put (copies of) specific parts of Sonar's interface on my tablet would be unbelievably useful and cool.

Yeah still Win7 here (single touch).  Good to know though about the right click in Win8 touchscreens.
 
The app you're describing already exists to some extent, but it's in the Apple universe.  "V-Control Pro".  It's $50 and for what it does it's brilliant.  It has two parts -- one is a mixer/transport view with jog wheel and bankable fader groups (thereis a Sonar template incldued), and the other is something called "V window" which basically copies any floating window you select to the iPad.  It connects via wifi.  
 
My only problem with it was that the iPad was slightly too small to really cover enough real estate for certain plugins.

Yeah, I know there are remote apps, but I'm thinking of actual Sonar interface elements optimized for touch on either a local or remote device - like say a tabbed interface with things like say an oversized markers view and a stripped down console view that contains Sonar's icons/colors/etc.
 
And it could sort of solve the problem where people who don't use touch complain that stuff is too big and wastes screen real estate, while the people who use touch complain that stuff is too small for touch.

I friend of mine just dropped $3500 on a Slate MTi to do more of less the same thing with protools. Now don't get me wrong, there are some other killer things that the MTi does, but core features like transport and editing are the same as getting a 27" touchscreen (for what like $700) and using Sonar :)

bandso
I friend of mine just dropped $3500 on a Slate MTi to do more of less the same thing with protools. Now don't get me wrong, there are some other killer things that the MTi does, but core features like transport and editing are the same as getting a 27" touchscreen (for what like $700) and using Sonar :)

Exactly...  IMHO the Slate MTi could get cannibalized by unassuming touch screens as the tech advances and the app become more 'touch-friendly'.  There's precedent for it too: the JazzMutant Lemur was a $2K touch control surface just a few years ago, and recently it's been reborn as a $25 iTunes app.  No one was going to buy the original version once it became apparent that apps could be developed on iPad that did 90% of what the original did, for a hundredth of the price.  
 
I'd love to have the MTi, but having just been burned on PT dropping support for the Control 24, I'm more cautious about investing significant dollars in the mid-range controller market.  (I love Slate's stuff, but who's to say they won't drop support for MTi in a couple of years?)  $3500 is doable, but it's also not chump change!  Unlike, say, boutique hardware (which you can pick up used and resell later for a similar price), hardware controllers don't hold value in the same manner, and can be reduced to 'doorstop' status if the manufacturer decides it wants to EOL it.    

New here, but I have been reading for a while. Pretty much been through most of Cake's DAWS over the years, and now considering X3 from X2, but happy enough at the moment to keep thinking about it.
 
As much as I 'want' to stay touchscreen, (the reason I bought my all in one touchscreen desktop), after losing many weeks of work due to a bug that crawled across the screen and deleted a complete project!!!!!!!!!, I have resisted the urge to return to that work environment.
 
Just something to consider if you work late into the night in a room you can't completely seal off!!
 
I will stay 'non' touch for a little longer, despite how much I enjoyed some of the freedom obtained.
 
Great otherwise.