"My Borders Card is itchy "

...and I just used my 15% extra discount voucher at Barnes and Noble to get Robert Wyatt Live in London '74.

I still have money in my pocket itching to buy a P5 Power book though.

ORIGINAL: b rock
Project5 is (and rightfully so) a controlled substance. As such, any book adding more P5 Power! to it could only be available with a doctor's prescription.
Available soon from your local pharmacy or street-level dealer.
Side effects may include ...

Heh...

So, I wanted to write something semi-serious about this cause I think it's a cool idea....but....

Who's going to buy this book? Us? By "us" I mean the forum regulars, if you don't mind me including myself in the group. I answered a post today, where is it, uhm...here...from a guy who's relatively new to the program who didn't think this forum was the right place to hang out because his music didn't include drum loops or acidized wave files and was legitimately asking where else we might recommend would be a more appropriate place for him to hang out. With all due respect to this individual, HE is the kind of person who needs this book, because HE thinks that his music is inappropriate here because P5 is only for loop builders.

I'll buy a book written by Tom Brockway, Chris Hansen or anyone else here because I hang out here, I feel like I know a little bit about you, I respect your opinions, I'm not afraid to disagree with you, I know that you are talented and capable but first and foremost, I know that you are passionate about the program, what it does, what it CAN do, how unique it is and what it possibly COULD be in the future. You don't have to convince ME, you have to convince people like the guy I referenced above.

So, if we (once again, we being the forum regulars) are serious about a project such as this, first and foremost we have to consider what the intended audience is. Ultimately a book that goes into great detail about the inner workings of Project5 is really useless unless it also does a good job of convincing users of DAW software that Project5 is worth using, or at least giving a passing look on their way to Sonar, LIVE, Cubase or ProTools.

WC

All right, dangit!!! - You guys KEEP talking about this kind of stuff and it's just CANDY to the Mojo, you know? (Sooo darned tempting!...)

So... let's do some math:

1) A 3rd party DVD tutorial product for something like Sonar (via the creator's own website) will sell something like 350 copies over the life of the product (I have my sources...). For a product like P5 - let's assume (optimistically) a third of that - 116.
2) Let's assume that the DVDs sell for $30 each. That's $3480.
3) There are a million ways to process online purchases - but a "best case scenario" is that you will get a return of about 97% (after all the Wells Fargo merchant fees, etc. - OR! - PayPal) - Your $3480 is now $3375.
4) You've got to burn the DVDs, make labels, cases, etc. - but let's assume we do it "ghetto". You're still probably looking at what?... A buck a DVD? - Subtract $116. Your total now is $3259.
5) You need software to record the tutorials. Camtasia is $300. (Okay, it's a one time investment... but what, you're going to do this for a living now? ) - Your total now is $2959.
6) (Deep breath)
7) Okay... you love P5, you love the forum, you want to do your darndest to help out, spread the word, etc.!!! - Let's think about how many hours you would need to go in to this thing... (whew!)
8) Let's assume you get EVERY video in the first pass - because you're like um... I don't know... the Peyton Manning of the audio tutorial world? - (Okay, let's NOT assume that...) Assuming that you are HUMAN and that you can do about 8 videos in an 8 hour day (when you are in the groove) - and assuming (I have many a scrawled pieces of paper on this) that you need somewhere between 80 and 100 videos to cover the "basics" - you are looking at BEST 80 videos in 10 days. That's 80 hours.
9) But wait! - You have to PREPARE all the pieces you are going to record... so you've got to spend some time collecting audio snippets, writing MIDI grooves, tweaking patches, etc. BEFORE you record... - So, let's say that you need a total of oh... 6 tunes or ideas to create in order to use them for your videos... Let's assume that (like Peyton) you can get those together in 6 separate evenings of say 4 hours each... That's 24 hours.
10) Where are we now? 80 hours plus 24 hours... that's um... 104 hours.
11) And while we're at it... let's add up the time it takes to prep all this stuff - laying out the DVDs, creating the labels, setting up the website, planning the lessons / interactions, etc. - Let's add another oh, I don't know week? to this? - so 5 days at 8 hours = 40 hours.
12) We're now at 144 hours. Quick check of the stopwatch: $2959 divided by 144 hours = $20.5 / hr.!!! SWEET! This really IS worth it!
13) I see! I see! I'll just quit my job and do this full time! Wow! This is great!!! - So, based on this model, I can quit my job and make about $41K a year!!! Wow! That is SO cool!... I mean... Sure! it isn't as much as I make NOW! - but I'd be SO much happier!...
14) So, let's see... To keep this going year round... - A DVD can be made (optimally) in 144 hours. There are 2000 (work) hours in a year. So, divide 2000 by 144... (carry the 2... scratch, scratch... erase, erase...) - All I have to do is make 14 DVD tutorials a year!!!... - and that's um... that's... um... that's... Crap!... That's like over one a month!... What other software can I cover?... Do I KNOW 14 pieces of software?... Would I REALLY want to be putting out a new DVD tutorial every month?... Would I begin to abhor THIS job as much as my old one - and kill my love of music once and for all?... What is that twitch in my eye?... What is that I hear?... Is that my wife calling me from upstairs?... Gosh... is that heartburn I'm feeling or what?...

(... "coming honey..."...)



...

You HAD to ask...

(sorry...)

- Grandpa Mojo
www.grandpamojo.com

So... let's do some math:

Nice, Chris. You paint a pretty rosy picture there, but what are the downsides?

I think what Oroboros says makes a lot of sense. We all know that P5 really is a niche product and not the first choice (or the second..or third) when it comes to buying a music production software app. So it makes better sense to do the "online" thing on the WIKI or pitch it to Jesse for the P5.com website as it seems to be laden with obsolete info once again. WIKI really DOES seem the better way to go. Its the way things "get done" on the net these days and it's a reliable place that most of us can head to for the skinny on most aspects of P5. If you WIKIed it than someone like Tom or Bob could delegate topics/lessons to some of the "power users" among us and in no time we'd have something solid fleshed out...that could be edited more easily and added to at any point! Everyone could collaborate. And those with strengths in the graphics department or language department, etc could be given the role of ensuring everything gets a thorough "going over". Yup...I just talked myself into it. If yer up for this idea, I'd consider contributing something...whatever you delegated!

I'd say we're divided between those of us that are just getting our feet wet with P5 and those of us who know most of the intricate workings of this app. So...you need 2 products! I certainly wouldn't care about a "basics" kind of approach to P5, but lets face it. Thats the one that Cake would/should be interested in, in order to gain more P5ers. Bundle it with the software!!
But I would want a meatier, B-Rock infused product that delves into the actual knitty-gritty and assumes I already know what an Aux Bus is. See, you run the risk here of alienating each side by trying to come up with ONE product.

The lack of deep meaningful questions on the forum in the last month, would suggest to anyone considering such a thing, that it would be a waste of their time and money.

ORIGINAL: grandpa mojo

There was talk (at one time) about having me do some more tutorials for the P5.com website... but it has never surfaced because - in reality - "They" are just WAY too busy there to get their s*@t together... (money, contracts, topics, etc.) - so I just dropped the whole thing...

And yet there's Several Sonar Books,
Several Cakewalk Pro Books, you get the picture.
I think marketing is underestimating the market for this.

It's time.

I think they ought to <<<hire>>> you guys to produce this.

at least for P5 ver. 3....

ORIGINAL: wrench45us


correct me if I'm wrong, but 'entry-level' hosts like FLStudio and Reason and P5 are generally under-represented in the publishing 'how to' field

Actually, Reason is quite well represented in the 'how to' world with at least a half dozen books and nearly that many video tutorials available for it, in addition to being regularly featured in a number of the music mags.

it's DIY world for us, if we haven't figured that out yet
i think grandpa Mojo, having been through the wars, is most qualified to present a workable approach

Well, I would rather have the wiki be the beneficiary of any tutorial authoring since it seems to have the most life in it. Except for the song area, Project5.com is pretty much dead.

jvanva

flstudio

ok,ok!!! I've been properly spanked ...I'll shut up about it...

OK, here's the opinion of my Multimedia Specialist. I was all but told bluntly that the DVD and book thing was crazy, but in the nicest of manners.
The answer?

Digital subscription magazine format .pdf. Save the print version for Phase 2; after becoming established in a groove. Easy editing/updating of articles; better paced as compared to a one-shot. Streaming video as a treat: occasionally; then increasingly offered. Makes a lot of sense.

Of course, here's the "dreamer's" input. Start out compiling the material for a DVD. Enough for a slim set of basic tools with a lot of wasted space. Add to it over time, while always including that basic toolset. Think CM disk-style. Offer it to subscribers at cost; others for a nominal added fee. Incentive to become a subscriber. Whether that be password-protected, or wide-open? I don't know. Cost details? Not a clue yet.

I think DA's right. We need more than one product level. I could write up the basics, but I'm always more comfortable pushing the envelope. Maybe both. We'll do it right this time, though. Proofread the articles, minimize the jokes and chatter, and edit for a concise flow with maximum fact-based text, example files and visuals, and useful step-by-step techniques.

'Course, I could just drop all of this, and hope it drifts to the Land Of The Lost uncerimoniously.

ORIGINAL: philchetcuti3

ORIGINAL: MurderDethKill

ok,ok!!! I've been properly spanked ...I'll shut up about it...

Well, shut the funk up then damnit!

Digital subscription magazine format .pdf. Save the print version for Phase 2; after becoming established in a groove. Easy editing/updating of articles; better paced as compared to a one-shot. Streaming video as a treat: occasionally; then increasingly offered. Makes a lot of sense.

This is just, or (that is), very similar to what I've had in mind all along. A mag which really gets down deep into "How to do what I'm trying to do?" with Project 5.

The definitive - how to get this program to complement any users needs while also benefiting them - mag. What makes people really sink into programs like these is knowing and/or learning the techniques that allow them to bring their imaginations to life.

Teaching these techniques in context to producing realworld pro level tracks/songs, as well as exposing the kudos the program has to offer is exactly what convinces others that, "Hey, this is why I need this program!".

Knowing just how effective Project 5 can be for things like: Recording, Arranging, Mixing/Remixing and finally providing a pristine sound is beyond a doubt what will keep them returning to the program time and time again.

So if we are to do a magazine, it should be one which focuses heavily on technique in Project 5. Such as The various ways to record in P5, Using P5's meters/ How to get proper levels, Mixing in P5 - Creating good balance, great panning and seamless fx, getting that pro studio sound using nothing more than P5...etc.

These are the things that make a program enticing! I've seen numerous tutorials on getting Reason to do this or that and this is what Project 5 lacks abroad.

This shouldn't be looked upon as a one man project, we need a team on this, a team with well defined purpose. I say try it without making money the sole bottom line. I say do it faithfully expecting great things to come of it.

Perhaps one or more of us already has the program Camstasia, so let that or those person(s) be the designated voice(s) of the project. This doesn't mean they are under pressure to go it alone. That's why we have writers in this world.

So we assign a groups of writers to specific subjects and flesh out every aspect of those subjects.

They write the illustrated reviews and/or tutorials on these subjects and then send them on to be recorded if, that is, they are deemed important/useful enough to go past print - ..pdf or whatever the format.

These are just a few more of the thoughts I've had on getting this to happen and just a couple more pennies for the collection jar.

LabDog

Who's going to buy this book? Us? By "us" I mean the forum regulars, if you don't mind me including myself in the group. I answered a post today, where is it, uhm...here...from a guy who's relatively new to the program who didn't think this forum was the right place to hang out because his music didn't include drum loops or acidized wave files and was legitimately asking where else we might recommend would be a more appropriate place for him to hang out. With all due respect to this individual, HE is the kind of person who needs this book, because HE thinks that his music is inappropriate here because P5 is only for loop builders.

I'll buy a book written by Tom Brockway, Chris Hansen or anyone else here because I hang out here, I feel like I know a little bit about you, I respect your opinions, I'm not afraid to disagree with you, I know that you are talented and capable but first and foremost, I know that you are passionate about the program, what it does, what it CAN do, how unique it is and what it possibly COULD be in the future. You don't have to convince ME, you have to convince people like the guy I referenced above.

Shucks, if you wanted my input ("I am that man!") you should've just asked for it. If you click on that link and read all the advice I received, you'll find that I am, in fact, learning an AWFUL lot using this forum. I'm not sure I will have been as well served by a book.

You will also all be interested to know that, two months ago, when I called and spoke with a salesman at Full Compass and said, "I just want to record piano and perhaps some vocals," he said, "Buy Project 5." So I did. So some people are getting "the message" that you're trying to get out; that Project 5 is more than loops (I still persist in pointing out that my music is far different from the other music in this forum though!)

Perhaps what you really need is to have Cakewalk direct ALL new users to this forum. Do they? (I just kind of stumbled on it because I had nowhere else to go!)

Sam

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention (interestingly enough) that when I had ordered P5 and was waiting for it to be delivered, I went on to Amazon and searched for a book on it. Saw all the "power" books and books on other Cakewalk products, and I found myself thinking, "Hmmm, I wonder if they're close enough that I should just buy one of them." Did buy something like "Home Recording for Dummies" which has been ok (remember, I'm an utter newbie to all this!). My point is that had there been a book I would have gladly purchased it.

Sam