Rothchild
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 13:17:49
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Desperate Dan, thanks for the insight in to being a Beta tester - I really hope that any other beta testers don't see any of this as a slur on the work they do as it is not. I also agree with Danny D's point that it's not a lack of care on behalf of the Bakers, I too trust their sincerity and commitment.
This still rolls back to my original point that using the Open Source development model provides a lot more incentive for beta testers and bug reporters as they gain a real stake in the software rather than just a cap and badge.
It's funny in a way that we are back having this discussion about what the development focus should be and what one should expect for the money we pay, R!osc's point was an interesting one because I thought that's what I was doing - if you want me to beta test it then give it me free and I'll earn my keep reporting and putting up with bugs, or charge me and deal with my expectation that it should work and that bugs I find, as a paying user, are fixed. I wonder how quickly we could get Paul to bring Ardour up to scratch if we all started donating our $180 a year upgrade fee to him and got involved in the community over there, it's already got some spankingly good features and IMO really just needs some workflow changes to make it a suitable migration target.
Cheers
Child
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ba_midi
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 13:29:24
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MANY years ago - I beta tested for a company that made ATARI software MIDI/MUSIC applications. There were about 100 of us testers. During each version release cycle, we all put in a lot of effort - as did the programmers - to find as many bugs as possible. The biggest problem always was the balance between the needs for good programming, and release cycle demands. The company HAD to release product within a reasonable schedule in order to get the income necessary to keep going. Often that was in direct conflict with the time available to squash bugs. There were many times the beta team was very frustrated by the fact we did find bugs (as did the programmers) that we felt should be fixed before release. But, there simply were no good options. IF the company didn't get the income, they couldn't afford the staff nor would they have the cash flow to meet general day to day business needs. So it was always boiled down to getting a "usable" product out the door and then going for the point releases (bug fixes). I think every software company that authors *complex* software (and let's face it, Sonar is VERY complex) is stuck in this catch 22 of balancing financial needs vs application stability. Let's also realize that software such as Sonar is used on a huge array of different hardware platforms and is subject to "user level" (ie., different users have different levels of expertise/knowledge, etc). I've seen COUNTLESS messages posted here (including some by me at times) where users complain ("rant" sometimes) about a problem they claim is a bug in Sonar that turns out to be user error. That happens a LOT! And, most of the problems were corrected by helping users learn how to setup and tweak their systems. Also - on forums such as this we see mostly the "complaints" and "problem reporting." I would bet that a MUCH higher percentage of users have successful interaction with Sonar than those who do not. We just don't see the "success stories" here as much as the problem stories. So, while I agree being a corporate "fanboy" is a bit overdone by some, I also give a lot of credit to Cakewalk in the way they at least try to balance the problems they face every day, every release. At least they DO participate here and make the effort to correct the serious bugs as quickly as the demands allow, given everything involved to do so, and given the limited resources a company such as Cakewalk has. They do try to make a damn good product, and they do address the issues that affect users in a negative way. I think it's normal for us users to **** now and then, but I do think some headroom should be given to Cakewalk for the dedication and commitment to their products. I, for one, am very pleased (in general) with the product. I've run into some bugs like most have, but there have almost always been workarounds; and in time, they usually provide the bug fixes that get things going again. I've been using Sonar since version 2.x and have upgraded every version since, and am now on 8.x. I am very please overall, and have had a lot of success with the product. Is it perfect? Nah. Nothing is. Windows is probably more of a headache and buggy thing than Sonar :) But, overall- and *on balance*, I can't complain. I get to make a lot of music using software that provides me the tools do so so. I can live with a few bugs here and there, now and then ;) Just my 2 cents. ORIGINAL: musicmanrdu
I thought this article by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes (which compliments another writer's feelings) summed up the way many of you guys felt about how Sonar 8 was "rushed" to the market. Looks like you're not alone. I'm so glad I held out for 8.02. I should be getting my copy soon.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=3085
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Funkybot
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 13:34:31
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While there's little that can be done about odd compatibility issues, there is no reason for broken features other than a) bad testing and b) bad release timetables.
Now some of the bad testing issues simply come down to bad testers who the companies don't, but should get rid of for not meeting their end of the bargain. The majority of the problem though, is just disorganization. Why does no audio software company issue test scripts that have a list of features that need to be tested along with a pass/fail option?
I'd issue a test script to each tester, maybe having certain testers focus on certain areas of the script (if it's too large for a single person), and require the completion of the script for a copy of the software. This would of course, be in addition to the normal day-to-day work and stability/crash reporting that the testers would engage in. I'd also get rid of any tester who was not consistently meeting expectations. Accountability needs to be a part of testing. This would apply for both in-house testers and the non-employee testers though the standards for the latter should be a tiny bit more lax.
Next up: release timetables. I say get rid of them eniterely and keep the release date flexible with the understanding that retailers will always push for a pre-holiday season release. Release shouldn't be an option until you've got two different scripts in for each feature, both showing a "pass." If one or more scripts lists a "fail" for a particular feature, the work of the testers should be reviewed. If it's a bug, fix it. If it appears to be working fine, follow up with the tester for more info. Sometimes the tester's expectations will be wrong and the feature works, and other times the tester will be able to provide more information on the problem. The product should definitely not go to production with any "Fail" rows on a script for a particular feature.
The level of commitment for this kind of test routine would be great, but it would definitely help squash most of the broken feature issues. I'd bet that you'd identify a lot more stability issues if the above were true as well.
Intel i7 4790k, ASUS Z97-A mobo, 16GB Kingston DDR3 RAM, Windows 10 x64, UAD2 Duo, RME Fireface 800, Sonar X1/X2 Producer
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R!Soc
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 13:59:28
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ORIGINAL: artsoul
This was un-neededly nasty and cheap---typical of this place and the attitude within it.
Yes I would pay more for a professional version of sonar, I happen to like the program and want it to work---I paid for sonar and for it to this buggy IS unprofessional.
If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. You completely fail to understand the economics of running a software company, especially a niche software company like Cakewalk. It's so easy to say you want it bug free. But are you really willing to pay the cost for bug free? I really doubt it. Consider the cost of employing the development team. Consider the lease on the building. Consider the expense for software and hardware. Consider the expense for office furniture, administrative staff, legal assistance, marketing, graphic design, etc. Now, all those expenses are overhead until the product ships and you start generating income. So, how much reserve cash should they have on hand to fund all the overhead expense until it ships? There is a point where any company needs to say "Good Enough". If they run out of cash before they deliver the project, programmers quit, banks call in loans. The reality is, there is only so much any development team can do with limited funds, limited man power, and limited time. If they increased their development cycle, I'm guessing that the final product cost of Sonar could easily triple or quadruple. Now, you and I may be willing to pay the increase, but I'm sure most of their customers would jump ship. Personally, I'd love to see a three year dev cycle with a product that doesn't break any existing features and only includes new ones that are mostly bug free. However, I don't think current market conditions and economics will allow for that. You may see that as nasty, un-needed, and cheap. But it's reality.
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R!Soc
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 14:11:57
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ORIGINAL: Funkybot
While there's little that can be done about odd compatibility issues, there is no reason for broken features other than a) bad testing and b) bad release timetables.
You are presenting a false dilemma. There are many other reasons for broken features. They happen all the time where I work. c) a developer decides to be a hero and slip in an untested fix, right before release (I've done this to shut up a whining project manager who is screaming bloody murder to have something implemented, even though there is no time to test it). d) someone reviews the beta testers bug reports and decides that other bugs have a higher priority because they are more severe. e) a fix for bug "A" breaks another feature and creates an obscure bug "B" that is hard to track down. f) The development team accitently flags a bug as complete, so it never really gets looked at. g) Someone on the team quits and doesn't completely finish fixing a bug, but there is no time left to complete it because now they are down a full time resource. I'm sure the list goes on. These are just a few of the things I see at my day job. I can't imagine that we are alone in having problems like this.
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Funkybot
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 14:34:43
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ORIGINAL: R!Soc
You are presenting a false dilemma. There are many other reasons for broken features. They happen all the time where I work.
c) a developer decides to be a hero and slip in an untested fix, right before release (I've done this to shut up a whining project manager who is screaming bloody murder to have something implemented, even though there is no time to test it).
d) someone reviews the beta testers bug reports and decides that other bugs have a higher priority because they are more severe.
e) a fix for bug "A" breaks another feature and creates an obscure bug "B" that is hard to track down.
f) The development team accitently flags a bug as complete, so it never really gets looked at.
g) Someone on the team quits and doesn't completely finish fixing a bug, but there is no time left to complete it because now they are down a full time resource.
I'm sure the list goes on. These are just a few of the things I see at my day job. I can't imagine that we are alone in having problems like this.
There's no false dilema and my original post alreadys accounts for a lot of what you've countered with. To start: c) No untested fixes to code should ever go in, that just makes no sense, and probably doesn't happen anyway. Programmers tend not to add fixes unless told to do so. If they do, they document the changes and require testing. This is internal and can be controlled by Cakewalk themselves. d) This goes back to don't release without passes on every feature. Priority only comes into play when you're trying to meet a target deadline. Otherwise, any broken feature should be fixed prior to release. Priority should only determine where in the testing process the fix comes. e) Fix A causing bug B would only get caught in the kind of rigid testing program I detailed above. To be clear, I should add that a final regression test would need to occur during the last build just to ensure this kind of thing doesn't happen. f) No, because the beta testers script would still list a "fail" for whatever feature/bug. The purpose of scripts in my scenario is to ensure that nothing moves to production until it says "pass." This process could even easily be automated. g) ...or the world could end, the hyopothetical worst-case scenarios are just a hair above pointless. We've had programmers leave the company in the middle of a project at my job and the work just gets transferred to an available resource. If there is none, you push back release until a resource becomes available. This is why getting rid of release deadlines was the second major point of my original post. I assure you that corporate IT departments do exactly this kind of testing. Why? Because an hour of system downtime at a Fortune 500 company costs a lot of money. The proprietary systems need to work and need to be tested, stress tested, and tested again. It doesn't appear that audio software developers have as high standards as my company does internally. If we let a release go through with a failure on a test script, we'd have some explaining to do. It's just a shame that others aren't so stringent.
post edited by Funkybot - 2008/11/25 14:38:47
Intel i7 4790k, ASUS Z97-A mobo, 16GB Kingston DDR3 RAM, Windows 10 x64, UAD2 Duo, RME Fireface 800, Sonar X1/X2 Producer
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jb
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 15:05:20
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I think we're going to see an increase in the "beta culture" phenomena rather than a decrease and I'm not so sure it's a bad thing. Many tout the transparency of the open source model where users are "owners" more than renters and everyone is expected to contribute to the ongoing project whether by adding functionality, fixing bugs, or providing skins, what have you. Everybody's happy to do so because the app continually gets better. Unfortunately there's no open source sequencer/recorder that comes close to any of the majors and, given their scope and complexity there probably won't be.
So, with paid software the code is kept proprietary and there's an upfront charge as well as an annual subscription. For Sonar, once the $499 initiation fee is paid, the annual subscription is really cheap and for that fee we get a dedicated team that maintains the code base, provides new functions and adds bells and whistles, etc. As members of the user community we can help each other solve problems, find and report bugs, recommend features, etc. We don't have to be programmers like true open source ware requires, merely concerned and cooperative members of the user community. Perhaps I'm naive but i think it's really just a question of attitude, the money is the least of it.
So, given the ware's ever-increasing complexity and development cost,s I think the companies are wise to pursue a strategy where users help refine the app. Perhaps they'll throw n specials or freebies along the way to make it more worthwhile, maybe not. Just my 2 cents, ymmv.
Celeron 300A o/c 450, SBLive, Win98SE
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UnderTow
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 15:07:34
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ORIGINAL: bapu
As a business application developer for over 30 years now, I've known this rule to be absolutely true. Management will say it's wrong and when faced with the facts that you cannot get all three, they say "Well you just don't know how to do it". Then they bring in a new project manager and the cycle starts all over again. I've seen it time and time again.
UnderTow says I'm wrong cuz he had a project (that in bitflipper's and my opinion was small in nature) that did accomplish all three. On a small enough scale this can be true. But not on the scale of a DAW (JMO).
No I didn't say that.  I took longer to set up that system than my manager was happy with and had heated arguments about it. (Of course on the long run my approach was much much cheaper than any rush job would have been. Why some people don't understand that is completely beyond me). I have always been in favour of longer planning and design stages (as you can see in my other posts). I am also in favour of longer and deeper quality control. I have never said things have to go fast. Not least because on the long term, this just slows things downs and causes much higher costs. I'm also in favour of a longer release cycle and a better product. All I said is that the idea that software has to be buggy is ridiculous and I stand by that. I also don't mind higher prices if those prices are warranted. I am for better products that last longer. (Not just for software). Quality over quantity. If anything, my whole philosophy in life is to do things well or not bother at all. On a much more general note, if a company does not believe they can put a superior product on the market, IMO they should pack up their bags and close shop. Why dilute the market with cheap crap? Let anyone that produces quality, believes in their product and puts their heart and soul into it earn the money they deserve to earn. The only reason some companies produce the crap they sell is pure unbridled greed. F*ck them. UnderTow
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bapu
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 15:14:43
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bapu
As a business application developer for over 30 years now, I've known this rule to be absolutely true. Management will say it's wrong and when faced with the facts that you cannot get all three, they say "Well you just don't know how to do it". Then they bring in a new project manager and the cycle starts all over again. I've seen it time and time again.
UnderTow says I'm wrong cuz he had a project (that in bitflipper's and my opinion was small in nature) that did accomplish all three. On a small enough scale this can be true. But not on the scale of a DAW (JMO).
No I didn't say that. I took longer to set up that system than my manager was happy with and had heated arguments about it. (Of course on the long run my approach was much much cheaper than any rush job would have been. Why some people don't understand that is completely beyond me).
I have always been in favour of longer planning and design stages (as you can see in my other posts). I am also in favour of longer and deeper quality control. I have never said things have to go fast. Not least because on the long term, this just slows things downs and causes much higher costs. I'm also in favour of a longer release cycle and a better product. All I said is that the idea that software has to be buggy is ridiculous and I stand by that. I stand corrected on your point of view and the project of which you spoke.
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bapu
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 15:24:41
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The only reason some companies produce the crap they sell is pure unbridled greed. 100% agreed. Hence the trap where "we want it quicker & cheaper" almost always ends up buggier/crappier.
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UnderTow
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 15:26:38
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ORIGINAL: R!Soc
There is a point where any company needs to say "Good Enough".
And how much do you think all the negative comments on this forum are costing Cakewalk in potential sales? And how about all the silent ex-customers that just buy a different product and never give Cakewalk any feedback? You can be sure that they do tell their friends and colleagues about it if asked. Or the people that try the demo and find issues, delete it and never ever come back to the Cakewalk website again? Remember the sayings about first impressions? I do not agree with your views or at least my valuation of "good enough" is vastly different to yours.
The reality is, there is only so much any development team can do with limited funds, limited man power, and limited time.
And that is why it is so important to plan and design things properly. Continually fixing things because new code is added to old broken code is never cost effective. There is a Dutch expression which translates to "Mopping with the tap open". I believe that is what allot of software developers do.
If they increased their development cycle, I'm guessing that the final product cost of Sonar could easily triple or quadruple.
Says who? Adding a few weeks, a couple of months or even half a year of development to the cycle would not triple or quadruple the cost. On the contrary. Not only would it reduce cost for the next cycle, the increased quality and increased professionalism of the product would speak for itself and increase sales. Not to mention the reduction of support staff costs and the extremely high cost that each and every disgruntled customer represents. It is all about long term vision over short term gains. How can you not see this? How can anyone not see this? Should I remind you about the state of the world economy? That is the direct result of short term thinking and lack of vision. Sooner or later it all comes crashing down. These short term profit models are not sustainable. The richest person in the world earned his fortune by always looking at the long term. What better example is there than that? UnderTow
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bapu
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 15:30:51
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Why some people don't understand that is completely beyond me I'm with you there. In my experience, most managers see time as money, especially "longer" time. As we both know, design time is cheaper than devlopment time. But most managers see non-coding time as wasted. Yes, poor coding causes bugs, but poor design will almost certainly cause more bugs than solid designs will. OK I'm over this convo. Thanks for indulging me, all.
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bapu
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 15:51:38
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It is all about long term vision over short term gains. How can you not see this? How can anyone not see this? I said I was done, but UnderTow makes a point that got me thinking. Longe term vs. short term. On this forum we see a samttering of users still on V 3 and 4 and higher smattering of user still on 5 and 6 and good smattering of people who say they prolly skip 8 and go to 9. Rgardless of the numbers, that says to me, obvioulsy, not all users upgrade to EVERY SINGLE release. As the economy get's worse (before it get's better) the precentage of people not upgrading in '09 and '10 may be even greater. Maybe that number will never get so high as to allow CW to see the disadvantge of yeraly releases but maybe, just maybe it will. I have a friend who is a wholesale sales rep to VERY LARGE national retail firm that recently announced (internally) that they expect and are planning to take a loss over the next three years just to keep the doors open. That's a shot at long term vision, IMHO. OK, I'm really done now. Thanks all.
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UnderTow
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 15:58:46
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ORIGINAL: daveny5
There are an infinite number of possible computer hardware and software combinations and its impossible to make products that will work on every one of them. Also, some people are not as skilled or experienced with computers and software as others. Some of the so-called bugs may simply be conflicts with other drivers or hardware.
There are enough bugs being reported that have nothing to do with hardware or OS. Or how about weird design decisions like this: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1558862
If you're dissatisfied with the product, by all means, you should return it for a refund and use something else.
That can't be your picture in your avatar because this type of comment must come from a high-school kid. And I'm being flattering.  Seriously, what do you think that comment will achieve? Do you not want the product to improve? Do you want all the demanding customers to jump to the competition? Just so you can feel a little better about the purchase you made? That will make Sonar worse. Much worse. But yes, people won't be complaining on the forum any more.  UnderTow
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bitflipper
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 16:04:26
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Bug-free software really is possible. But not at 500 bucks a pop.
No, bug-free is gonna cost you -- and I'm talking Department of Defense big-league costs. Either that, or it's going have to compromise functionality. That's just the reality of software development. The old "on-time, under budget or bug-free: pick any two" adage is as true today as it was in the 1970's when it was coined.
In general, I would very much like the pace of software development to slow down. Give a product time to mature and stabilize. Microsoft is the worst offender, continuously abandoning yesterday's paradigms in favor of whatever new paradigm their marketing department favors this week.
Linux is not the answer, and Apple isn't exactly leading the way, either. The only way to break this cycle is for consumers to start valuing stability over new features, to refuse to upgrade just because some arbitrary release date has arrived.
And the toughest change for consumers: to be willing to pay a little more.
The problem is that we're spoiled for cheap, feature-laden software. I mean, really, we're so accustomed to paying $500 for an operating system that the state of California sued Microsoft for overcharging! (Perspective: in pre-Microsoft days operating systems used to cost $15,000 to $100,000! Although for that price you did get solid code and 24x7 onsite support.)
So I am sympathetic to the majority position here - software quality can stand a lot of improvement, in all categories and markets. But I am amused at the whiny laments that such-and-such is unacceptable! unacceptable, I say! You paid 500 bucks for the product.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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UnderTow
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 16:05:17
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ORIGINAL: bapu
It is all about long term vision over short term gains. How can you not see this? How can anyone not see this?
I said I was done, but UnderTow makes a point that got me thinking.
Longe term vs. short term.
On this forum we see a samttering of users still on V 3 and 4 and higher smattering of user still on 5 and 6 and good smattering of people who say they prolly skip 8 and go to 9. Rgardless of the numbers, that says to me, obvioulsy, not all users upgrade to EVERY SINGLE release. As the economy get's worse (before it get's better) the precentage of people not upgrading in '09 and '10 may be even greater.
Maybe that number will never get so high as to allow CW to see the disadvantge of yeraly releases but maybe, just maybe it will.
The problem is that it is impossible to know for sure if the current model is the best even regardless of the state of the economy. Maybe the yearly cycle is detrimental to sales. Maybe it has always been. Maybe an 18 month cycle (including the extra development time) would have worked best all these years. Maybe 18 months would have swayed many more customers to upgrade with each new version. I believe that better products make better sales. I do also realise that cash-flow is essential to a company but Cakewalk has been around for 20 years. It isn't a new company that hasn't had time to build reserves. And now Cakewalk has Roland to back it financially. This should allow even more long term planning.
I have a friend who is a wholesale sales rep to VERY LARGE national retail firm that recently announced (internally) that they expect and are planning to take a loss over the next three years just to keep the doors open. That's a shot at long term vision, IMHO.
Indeed. Get fat during the growth years so that one can tighten the belt during the lean years and survive. UnderTow
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artsoul
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 17:51:19
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ORIGINAL: R!Soc
ORIGINAL: artsoul
This was un-neededly nasty and cheap---typical of this place and the attitude within it.
Yes I would pay more for a professional version of sonar, I happen to like the program and want it to work---I paid for sonar and for it to this buggy IS unprofessional.
If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.
You completely fail to understand the economics of running a software company, especially a niche software company like Cakewalk.
It's so easy to say you want it bug free. But are you really willing to pay the cost for bug free? I really doubt it.
Consider the cost of employing the development team. Consider the lease on the building. Consider the expense for software and hardware. Consider the expense for office furniture, administrative staff, legal assistance, marketing, graphic design, etc.
Now, all those expenses are overhead until the product ships and you start generating income. So, how much reserve cash should they have on hand to fund all the overhead expense until it ships?
There is a point where any company needs to say "Good Enough". If they run out of cash before they deliver the project, programmers quit, banks call in loans.
The reality is, there is only so much any development team can do with limited funds, limited man power, and limited time.
If they increased their development cycle, I'm guessing that the final product cost of Sonar could easily triple or quadruple. Now, you and I may be willing to pay the increase, but I'm sure most of their customers would jump ship.
Personally, I'd love to see a three year dev cycle with a product that doesn't break any existing features and only includes new ones that are mostly bug free. However, I don't think current market conditions and economics will allow for that.
You may see that as nasty, un-needed, and cheap. But it's reality.
it was the patronising tone that you took that i took as offensive - it stunk of the "if you dont like the country get out" attitude. regarding your points yes I know it takes money to cover overheads---I am perfectly aware of the neccessities of business---this does not excuse the buggy nature of the softwareb that they SELL. I use lexicon and mesa etc. becuase they do what they are advertised to do. For my money I expect that- if the software industry cannot work to the basic paradigm of customer satisfaction then it will go under -period- this is the way capitalsim works is it not? I have no inherent interest in software politics (or any corporate politics for that matter) -- they either sell something that works as advertised or they will have a set of seriuosly unhappy customers (as cake seem to at the moment), this is their job to correct that. This isnt meant to start a war between us you have your opinion and I have mine The basic fact is that I bought sonar because I expect a level of functionality and stability with it, they dont provide that then the market laws will bring them down. This is something i dont want to happen but they arent doing themselves any favours.
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Storm
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/25 18:14:30
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I don't understand the rational with some who think because you ask for stability that therefore means a perfect no-bug version. Two different things.
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artsoul
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 04:05:49
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ORIGINAL: Storm
I don't understand the rational with some who think because you ask for stability that therefore means a perfect no-bug version. Two different things.
agreed
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daveny5
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 10:06:17
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Seriously, what do you think that comment will achieve? Do you not want the product to improve? Do you want all the demanding customers to jump to the competition? Just so you can feel a little better about the purchase you made? That will make Sonar worse. Much worse. But yes, people won't be complaining on the forum any more. No, I don't want people to jump to the competition, since I have a vested interest in the success of Cakewalk. However, the bottom line is: you have a choice. You don't have to use Sonar. You also don't have to buy the latest release right when it comes out because after all these years, you should know that its going to have bugs. If you depend on Sonar for your livelihood, then you should install the new release in a test environment and not use it in your production environment until you know the new features inside out and you are confident in the results you are getting. You can't just trust that all the bugs have been shaken out on Day 1 of the new release. In theory you should, but in practice, its impossible to fully test a product of this level of complexity. Like it or not, Day 1 adopters are, in effect, beta testers. I've been on this forum for many years and many releases and this upheaval is typical. Perhaps this year its more pronounced, probably because there are more Sonar users out there.
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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jb
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 10:23:42
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ORIGINAL: UnderTow
The richest person in the world earned his fortune by always looking at the long term. What better example is there than that?
UnderTow
Actually, Warren Buffet is now the third richest. First is Carlos Helu of Telmex and second is our old friend, Bill, who made a pile selling incomplete, bug-ridden software ... Again, I say, we will see more 'beta culture,' not less.
Celeron 300A o/c 450, SBLive, Win98SE
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UnderTow
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 10:43:02
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ORIGINAL: jb
ORIGINAL: UnderTow
The richest person in the world earned his fortune by always looking at the long term. What better example is there than that?
UnderTow
Actually, Warren Buffet is now the third richest. First is Carlos Helu of Telmex and second is our old friend, Bill, who made a pile selling incomplete, bug-ridden software ...
Again, I say, we will see more 'beta culture,' not less.
No no. Warren Buffet is back at the top. http://www.forbes.com/2008/03/05/richest-people-billionaires-billionaires08-cx_lk_0305billie_land.html He has actually gained considerably since then and Bill Gates has lost considerably which proves my point about long term planning. UnderTow
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UnderTow
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 10:45:30
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ORIGINAL: daveny5
No, I don't want people to jump to the competition, since I have a vested interest in the success of Cakewalk. However, the bottom line is: you have a choice. You don't have to use Sonar. You also don't have to buy the latest release right when it comes out because after all these years, you should know that its going to have bugs. If you depend on Sonar for your livelihood, then you should install the new release in a test environment and not use it in your production environment until you know the new features inside out and you are confident in the results you are getting. You can't just trust that all the bugs have been shaken out on Day 1 of the new release. In theory you should, but in practice, its impossible to fully test a product of this level of complexity.
I agree with everything you write above Daveny. They are all sound arguments and advice and I have given the same advice to others in the past. The problem now is the amount and the nature of the bugs. Things like the now time running backwards or the behaviour of dragging clips to new tracks seem to indicate some serious errors in the code. Not the type of small bugs that you would expect to be addressed in point releases. There are already two point releases and the product has been on the market relatively long compared to the product's life cycle. (Already more than 20% of it's shelf life as determined by Cakewalk themselves). Something is seriously wrong. My guess is that too many resources are allocated to an up-coming product that is not available yet. (A product which I believe is ill-conceived from the start). The other problem is that there are often reproducible bugs recognised by the backers that do not get fixed. Sometimes for several versions of Sonar! The bakers then say it will be fixed in the next version (not always true). That is fine if the next version is free otherwise I find this unacceptable and has absolutely nothing to do with early adoption. There are features that do not work as advertised. The bakers know it yet they decide not to address these problems. That is not negligence, bad enough in itself, it is dishonesty.
Like it or not, Day 1 adopters are, in effect, beta testers.
No Daveny they are not. The term beta tester is very specific. The fact that people now use it to describe early adopters of software products indicates a deep malaise in the software world. (I would say a deep malaise in the world at large but that is off-topic). A certain amount of non-crucial bugs is acceptable in a first release. A number of crucial bugs is also acceptable as long as they are resolved in minimum time. The current situation is not acceptable. At least not by my standards.
I've been on this forum for many years and many releases and this upheaval is typical. Perhaps this year its more pronounced, probably because there are more Sonar users out there.
Or because the situation is worse than it was before and probably also because people are still peeved about previous issues that never got resolved or only got resolved in a paying update. UnderTow
post edited by UnderTow - 2008/11/26 11:25:13
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jb
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 11:02:56
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Things have changed since May but, no matter ...
Celeron 300A o/c 450, SBLive, Win98SE
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Gerry
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 11:13:13
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tarsier
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 11:32:04
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I use lexicon and mesa etc. becuase they do what they are advertised to do. Interesting that you would use Lexicon to make this point. I've found that their hardware boxes work as advertised, but their software is down in the barely usable to adequate range. I just got a PCM96 and it has done nothing to change my mind about Lexicon: Great hardware, lousy, incomplete, buggy, software.
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sandman5000
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 11:34:32
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ORIGINAL: UnderTow
Seriously, what do you think that comment will achieve? Do you not want the product to improve? Do you want all the demanding customers to jump to the competition?
UnderTow
ORIGINAL: UnderTow
Seriously, what do you think that comment will achieve? Do you not want the product to improve? Do you want all the demanding customers to jump to the competition?
UnderTow
People wouldn't need to complain if Cakewalk stopped being greedy. They just got millions and millions from Roland, so I don't buy this poor little Cakewalk argument. They roll it out every year to make more money. No other reason. I got in at sonar 4 and have upgraded every year up to 7. But the truth is I got tired of making excuses for Cakewalk. They are really nice guys and all that. But once you take your head out of the sand and look around, you realize that there really is better out there. I jumped ship to Reaper (talk about stable!) rewired with Ableton (incredibly creative and fun). It took a little while to get going with them (about a week) but for the first time in years I'm not fighting my software. Just having fun making music again. SO many times with Sonar, I'd be heavily editing audio takes and I'll get dropouts or I want to record midi or something and then have to stop and futz with the settings. Too many years of all that. Total creativity killer. And I'd make excuses for cakewalk and start tweaking my computer and set up or find workarounds. But I've had enough of all that. Why can reaper and Reason (which I also use) and Ableton work very well and come in at similar low prices? With less staff! I was a huge Cakewalk fanboy. Preaching it and defending it here and in other forums. Recommending it to other musicians. But not anymore. No more excuses. I want to make music. Not sit around tweaking my computer all day or dealing with the creativity killing 'quirks'. I'm off the upgrade/make excuses/figure out workarounds, game. I like sonar. I like the cakewalk staff. But it's too flaky for me to put up with anymore. My ideal situation for Cakewalk would be to take some of that Roland millions and get off the yearly upgrade path. Offer the upgrades when it's good and ready. Two years and even three. Whatever. Cubase is still at 4. And they've stayed in bz. It seems a false premise to me that they need to release every year to stay in businesses. That's just greed, IMHO. A very stable and continually tweaked Sonar 4 would still sell right now. The reality is that money talks. I vote with the wallet (like I always have). I'm skipping 8 (never thought I would type that!). Since all bz is motivated by money, that is the only way they will listen and take things seriously.
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Geokauf
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 12:50:55
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Hello, People wouldn't need to complain if Cakewalk stopped being greedy. They just got millions and millions from Roland, so I don't buy this poor little Cakewalk argument. How could you possibly know this? Do you personalize your auto manufacturer or your supermarket and depict them as big bad money making machines? I got in at sonar 4 and have upgraded every year up to 7 No one forced you to do that. I'm still on 5.2 and it works like a champ. for the first time in years I'm not fighting my software. Hmm, I've been doing digital audio since 1992 and I've NEVER had to "fight the software" once it was properly configured. I was a huge Cakewalk fanboy. That's a problem right there. Do not "fall in love" with your tools. They can't "love" you back. I vote with the wallet We all do it. It's called shopping for "price." I'm skipping 8 (never thought I would type that!). Don't be an upgrade junkie. Cakewalk has "made it's own bed" and now it "has to lie in it." That bed being a yearly update cycle. The resellers and the customers expect it. But they don't have the programming resources to do it and they are running out of "new" features to add. Consider that Cubase is on Version 4 and that Cubase SX and Sonar are contemporaries. In the same time that Cubase SX was developed and brought to Version 4, Sonar is at Version 8! Yet Cubase 4 has all the functionality that Sonar 8 has. In the case of Vegas, Sony has provided increased functionality (HD and multiple camera view) in free updates to the current version. It's not just Cakewalk, it is Adobe and MS Office (the new version offers absolutely no new functionality) as do many other software companies (add your own favorites here). So I'm sticking to Office 2003, Adobe Creative Suite 2 (they're on CS4 now) and the afore-mentioned Sonar 5.2 PE. As for the bellyaching. It's your money, it's your decision. Don't blame the manufacturer. GK
post edited by Geokauf - 2008/11/26 12:52:30
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dbmusic
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 13:40:50
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Given the complexity of DAW software with all the hardware/software interdependency, I can live with a few bugs that eventually get fixed with subsequent updates. What I can't live with, or even understand, is how marketed features that don't work and don't get fixed are just passed on to the next upgrade, bugs and all. There are many examples of this but External Inserts is an excellent one. I upgraded to S7 specifically for this features. It didn't work. It never worked. The exact problems have been duplicated across a multitude of systems by many users. It was not fixed in 7.01, 7.02, 8.0, 8.01, and now 8.02. I've sent emails, filed problem reports, brought up the issue endlessly to this forum...and we get nothing from CW, not even a simple acknowledgment. Yet they still cram the buggy feature into the next version and expect payment for it. I don't understand that kind of nonsense at all. Either they are technically in over their heads or they don't really care because it's not a feature most will use. I don't really know what's going through their collective corporate heads. But what I do know is it feels very unprofessional it has got me looking elsewhere for my DAW solutions.
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Desperate Dan
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RE: "Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"
2008/11/26 13:50:37
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If you depend on Sonar for your livelihood, then you should install the new release in a test environment and not use it in your production environment until you know the new features inside out and you are confident in the results you are getting. You can't just trust that all the bugs have been shaken out on Day 1 of the new release. In theory you should, but in practice, its impossible to fully test a product of this level of complexity. Dave while I value your opinion , if this were the case we would all still be using Cake for Windows 3.1 cause that's the last Stable version for me. There are still bugs in 7, 6,5,4,3,2,1.3 and Sonar (the Original) Also bugs that are a 1 digit code fix (Example is the Interpolate bug in 7) which although fixed in 8 should have been addressed in 7.03/4. People are upgrading where they should have had an incremental bug fix. I would rather see a code update and mark it as beta and at least have more revisions 8.015, 8.017 etc we as users could help beta test if we knew what we were getting into before hand. How difficult is it to change a digit in the code and re-assemble / Compile into a new downloadable .exe file ?? I ask you with tears in my eyes. There are lot's of bug examples that are still around that should have been whacked instead we get ridiculous features that no-one asks for and Genuine feature requests from *Actual* users of the product (as opposed to people who design and code etc) get almost totally ignored. I'd like to know where the new features are decided, in the boardroom probably instead of doing serious market research. You guys in the states are lucky to pay only $500 at the current rate of exchange the RRP of Sonar is now $1212 in our little third world country and the Upgrade 7 to 8 is $363 and I have to justify these prices to customers when the program can't loop 4 Bars over and over without dropping notes, or dropout repeatedly on stop, start or whatever. Yet Cubase out the box no tweaks makes Sonar look like a poor relation. Try doing a Sonar demo under those conditions and seeing how Cubase just simply works. Makes you think. I love Cakewalk but at time like these I could rip my hair out.
Windows 7 Professional 64 bit - Intel Q-9550 2.83 CPU, 8Gb DDR800, Gigabyte EP35-DS3R, M-Audio Delta 44, Yamaha HS-80M Monitors, UAD-1 Ultra Pack I'm reading a book about anti-gravity at the moment and I just can't put it down
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