Silicon Audio
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Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
Yes, I read the blog by Noel that showed the impressive numbers, but never wanted to install Windows 8 until it was released to manufacturing.
As we are a Microsoft partner, we now have the release version of Windows 8, so I installed it a couple of days ago and have been putting Sonar X1 (64-bit) through its paces.
All I can say is WOW!!!. Windows 7 was the best platform yet for audio, but Windows 8 absolutely blows it out of the water. I am going down to 32 buffers in my audio drivers and getting absolutely rock solid performance in large projects - this is unbelievable! In Windows 7, I could go as low as 128 buffers. I could use 64 buffers for very minimalist projects, but anything bigger and I had to go back to 128.
This is with the exact same MOTU drivers, using a PCIe-424 card and a MOTU 2408 Mk3 and 24I/O. It's like I just upgraded my PC and sound cards with something much more powerful.
My rig is a modest AMD Phenom II 1100t (six cores), but it feels like I just upgraded to the latest i7. I have so much more power up my sleeve and can go down to insanely low latencies. With Windows 8 and PCs just getting more powerful, I think we are nearing a par with hardware-based solutions like ProTools HD.
I don't know what Microsoft did under the hood, but they deserve a lot of kudos for optimising it so very much for audio. I'm in PC audio heaven.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
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SF_Green
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 19:31:27
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Thanks for the update SiAudio. Very encouraging, especially given the low upgrade price. Cheers
AMD FX-8370, Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3, Win7x64 SP1, 16Gb CorsairDDR3-1600, GeForce GTX 950 (390.65), SSD 525Gb (OS), SATA 3 & 1.5Tb, MOTU microlite, RME FireFace 800 (D 3.124, fw 2.77), UAD-2Q, Adam A7X, A-800 PRO, CC121 Cubase Pro 10.0.5, SonarPt- 2017.10 (x64), Reason10.2, Live 10.0.5 Suite, Wavelab Elements 9.5.40, Komplete10Ult, POD Farm2.5, Omnisphere2.5, BFD3, Alesis QS7.1, Arturia BeatStep Pro, POD HD500, Alesis ControlPad, ARP Omni, many things with strings. GrSltz My Studio
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bigboi
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 19:49:44
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wow...i have a pcie 424 card as well. with 2 2408 units and 2 24io. cant wait to try it. keep us posted sir! how can i get windows 8 now?
I7 920, 8 gigs ram, Newest gigabyte motherboard, 100 gig ssd for operating system and program files, 1 TB 7400 rpm for storage, Full V-Studio system, 2x Motu 2408 MKIII, 2x Motu 24 I/O, Maschine, Kore 2, Virus TI2, Korg m3, Novation Supernova, Novation D-station, Mo Phatt, Elektron Machine Drum, MicroKorg XL, Arturia Origin, Korg Triton, Roland jv2080-completely expanded, Avalon 737SP, 3 Sony premiere monitors, 2 event 20/20 studio monitors, Autotune AVP1, TC Helicon Voiceworks, 1 TC Electronics Powercore 6000, 1 Powercore Firewire
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emwhy
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 20:44:18
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When you say the same drivers, do you mean the drivers you were using with Win7? I have and Edirol UA 101 and an M Audio 2496 and want to try Win 8 but not sure which drivers to use because it's doubtful Win 8 drivers are out yet for those devices.
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Beepster
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 20:56:19
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Well that's good to hear but what about that horrid UI? Did you switch it to the "classic" view or whatever it's called? If Win8 has an option to switch to a Win7 style interface then I'll take a look at it. The weird default set up looks unusable to me. I'm old and dumb and easily confused. Extra performance would possibly entice me away from my beloved Win7 though.
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Frostysnake
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 21:06:48
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This excites me, as I am a 2408 user as well! I usually don't upgrade Windows until WAY after release, but you might be getting me to change protocol! David
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 64-bit 1 TB Hard Drive\Seagate 500 GB Slave VS-100 MOTU 2408 MK3 A-Pro 800
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Stone House Studios
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 21:06:59
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Well that's good to hear but what about that horrid UI? Just put Sonar in the "Start Up" folder, and voila! You never have to see the UI!  Brian
Core i7-6700@3.40Ghz Windows 10x64 16 GB RAM Sonar Platinum/Studio One PreSonus Studio 192
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Beepster
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 21:13:32
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@Brian... lol, well I still need to do maintenance and I do like to be somewhat familiar with my OS. One of my biggest problems with Vista was I couldn't bloody find anything. With 7 everything was right where I expected it to be (more like XP). If Win8 is gonna have a God Mode like 7 does that would make things a lot easier even if the UI sucks. I would still prefer the UI not suck though. ;-)
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Silicon Audio
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 22:30:09
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emwhy
When you say the same drivers, do you mean the drivers you were using with Win7? I have and Edirol UA 101 and an M Audio 2496 and want to try Win 8 but not sure which drivers to use because it's doubtful Win 8 drivers are out yet for those devices.
Yes, I am using the same Win7 drivers in Windows 8, no problemo. I think you will find that most drivers that work in Win7 will work in Win8.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
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Silicon Audio
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 22:35:06
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Beepster
Well that's good to hear but what about that horrid UI? Did you switch it to the "classic" view or whatever it's called? If Win8 has an option to switch to a Win7 style interface then I'll take a look at it. The weird default set up looks unusable to me. I'm old and dumb and easily confused. Extra performance would possibly entice me away from my beloved Win7 though.
Believe me - when you see how well Sonar runs in Windows 8, you won't care what the GUI looks like. I find the whole Metro UI strange in the desktop version of Windows 8. It just feels like two OS's clunked together, not a nice user experience at all. That said, I only see it when I start up, but then go to the desktop. I don't like having to revisit Metro to do other things, but as I said, the performance boost is worth the pain and I haven't had enough time with Metro to fully decide, but as of right now, I don't much like it.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
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Silicon Audio
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 22:38:37
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Frostysnake
This excites me, as I am a 2408 user as well! I usually don't upgrade Windows until WAY after release, but you might be getting me to change protocol! David
If you want what feels like a major hardware upgrade, you will want to break protocol! MS has done a killer job under the hood. Too bad the messed up the UI.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
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soundtweaker
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 22:41:49
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Get used to the new UI. The classic desktop is dying a slow death. Once metro apps get more robust there won't be a need for the traditional desktop.
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Beepster
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 22:44:09
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@SiliconAudio... Thanks for the info. I'm nowhere near running out of power with what I'm doing at the moment but it's nice to know that if it comes down to it an upgrade to 8 will give me some extra juice. I'm hoping by the time that day comes MS will have worked out all the kinks and us adults will have a workable interface. Wait... did I just refer to myself as an adult? Oh goodness me... that can't be right. :-/
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Beepster
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 22:46:47
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@soundtweaker... I don't think that is correct. Touchscreen style OSs and GUIs do not work for a huge portion of what businesses and professionals need to do. There is gonna be a huge outcry if MS doesn't offer a proper desktop alternative to metro.
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Silicon Audio
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 22:55:54
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Beepster
@soundtweaker... I don't think that is correct. Touchscreen style OSs and GUIs do not work for a huge portion of what businesses and professionals need to do. There is gonna be a huge outcry if MS doesn't offer a proper desktop alternative to metro.
Not to mention that Metro doesn't multi-task. Each app runs in an exclusive mode and apps in the background go to sleep. Business friendly? - forgetaboutit!!! My take is that Metro was added to the desktop version of Win8 simply so that users of phones & tablets can access their Metro apps & data on their desktop PCs in a familiar environment. Personally, I think it is awfully clunky the way MS has done this, but I see their reasoning. To some degree, it's in answer to the way Mac shares apps & data between iPhones, iPads and Mountain Lion on their desktops/laptops.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
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Beepster
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 23:10:55
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Win8 is MS doing it's usual charging people to do their homework for them. They just tossed all their wacky ideas into a pot, stirred them up and wait to see what people say. Then they'll release something reasonable based on that. They've done it so many times over the years I'm surprised most people don't see the trend. Fortunately Win7 is supported through to 2018 so by the time I REALLY need a new OS they'll likely have something decent on the table... I hope. If not maybe I'll own a Mac by then.
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Beepster
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 23:13:12
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And that's not to say Win8 isn't decent. I've never used it... but based on previews/reviews I don't think it's fully "baked" if you will. Nice to know it's powerful behind all the silliness though.
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John
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/28 23:18:29
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I have, and I HATE metro.
I am glad to hear that Win 8 runs well and particularly X1. That is great news.
I may also leave my beloved Vista for a new babe. Although I wont have to. I have a system of removable HDs that lets me change OS by swapping out the system drive. Cheating on my OS what will that lead to?
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Glyn Barnes
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 00:24:52
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Beepster
Fortunately Win7 is supported through to 2018 .
But that does not mean software vendors will continue to support Win7. Vista has almost 5 years left before MS stops supporting it (consumer support was extended to match business support just before the 5 years was up earlier this year) but software vendors are already dropping it like hotcakes, including Cakewalk, Native Instruments and FXExpansion. Having said that if Win 8 does not catch on or suffers the prejudice Vista suffers Win 7 could turn out to be like XP with software companies supporting well into its geriatric old age. My plan - new DAW, new O/S next year sometime. Time enough for the dust to settle (and hopefully SSDs to become bigger and cheaper).
post edited by Glyn Barnes - 2012/08/29 01:21:52
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sharke
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 00:45:05
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The Metro interface is not designed for traditional mouse/keyboard setups. It can't have been. It's specifically for touchscreen devices. I've tried the pre-release version. Usually I can tell after a day or two if I'm going to warm to a new interface, but I gave this one the thumbs down. There's no way you're going to prefer this over a traditional desktop if you use a mouse. Let's face it, the desktop, the start menu and the task bar are pretty much ideal, I really don't see what's wrong with them at all. There is no program on my computer that I feel is inconvenient to start up this way.
Microsoft look like they've decided that the mouse has had it's day. That's crazy. There is no way on earth people are going to be using a touchscreen for the kind of intricate work that a lot of us do. Can you imagine messing with control points on an Illustrator path, using your big stubby fingers? Also, who wants to reach over and prod their monitor every time they want to make a selection? I can understand the attraction of touchscreens in some situations. My phone would be useless without it. But to place a bet on the touchscreen replacing mouse and keyboard, ranks up there with every other embarrassing tech prediction that we've laughed at 10 years later.
If there was an option to boot directly to the normal desktop in Windows 8 then I wouldn't mind. Keep Metro there for people who actually need it. But apparently there's not. You're always going to go to that godawful tiled screen first. My money is on Window's 8 being part of the Microsoft tradition to screw up big time every alternate release.
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Glyn Barnes
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 01:40:41
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I have just been looking at some of the pre-views and articles on the web.
Looking at most of what I found you could be forgiven for thinking the desktop is not there and all people want to do on a computer is use social media. In addition to music I use computers extensively at work for both technical and office type applications and cannot think of any situation where I would find Metro better on a desktop or laptop. Tablets are a different thing and of course need touch screen control.
Having used touch screens on technical equipment I always regarded them inferior to good old buttons and keypads and assumed primary driving force as being miniaturization and cost reduction. I have resisted the touch screen craze, my iPod is the classic model and my Nokia phone has a QWERTY key pad, real buttons and bigger than those on a Blackberry which serves my needs nicely.
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mattox82
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 01:52:49
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The 'classic' desktop is not going anywhere its going to be with us for a long time.
If you dislike the metro interface you don't have to use it; just think of it as a visual start menu. You can remove all metro apps from it and just add normal desktop app icons. Searching for apps is faster and better than using the start menu; press your windows key and start typing and it will dynamically start finding what you are after.
Process of getting to the desktop from boot.
Login -> Press the desktop tile...
Tablets and the metro interface = the future of general purpose computing (along with iOS, Android). With MS/W8 you get the best of both worlds. Dock your tablet and you get the power of a full desktop, undock it and you have a killer tablet. No one is saying that complex apps are going to be immediately touch friendly, its going to require a whole new paradigm of UI and clever thinking. Also this is metro v1.0 the very first interation there is still a long way to go.
I've been running RTM since it was uploaded to MSDN and I'm developer when I have the 'classic' desktop open and am working I rarely ever see metro.
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metz
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 02:38:13
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We are a MS partner as well and I installed Win8 the same day it was released on MSDN. Sadly the Roland Quad Capture doesnt work at all under Win8 at the moment. Not using compability modes or anything. So I reverted back to Win7.
/M
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Frostysnake
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 05:11:12
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I can look past the UI as long as performance is there.
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 64-bit 1 TB Hard Drive\Seagate 500 GB Slave VS-100 MOTU 2408 MK3 A-Pro 800
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Kenneth
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 05:47:16
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It's not even about being touch friendly, I don't care how much they optimize it, nobody is going to sit all day at their PC waving their arms in the air using a touchscreen on a desktop PC, it's daft to even show the metro UI on a desktop PC, just detect if it's installed on a tablet or stationary and disable metro if it's the latter.
Same with touchscreen TVs, it's laughable. Yeah sure, I'm going to get up off the couch every time I want to change channels by touching my screen.
Touch UIs belongs on tablets and phones and something like MS Surface, not on a desktop.
Does it seriously not multitask?
i7 Sandy Bridge K2600 16Gb RAM 3x240GB Intel SSD | Samsung 40" LED Monitor | Win7 Pro 64bit | Saffire Pro 24 | Powercore MKII | Yamaha KX8 88 weighted keys| 2 x Behringer BCR2000 | Octapad SPD30 | Yamaha NS10, Focal Solo 6 BE | Bryston 4B Yamaha p2200 Amps| Sonar X2+Quickfix | EWQLSO Gold | Stormdrum2 | 8DIO Almost everything | Omnisphere | Zebra2 | Prominy V-Metal, SC Guitar, SR5 Bass | VIR2 Electri6ty | Shreddage X | Amplitude 3 | BOME MIDI Translator, Autohotkey
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mattox82
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 06:13:47
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A300 Pro drivers have issues being picked up on Windows 8, I tweaked the .ini file so it was recognised and it installs ok.
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dappa1
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 06:17:59
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Can't you just turn it off and be done with the touch screen and work in the time honoured way?
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John T
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 06:30:24
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I agree with whoever said this looks like the Microsoft every-alternate-release-is-a-dog curse again. I'm giving this a complete steer for the time being, not really interested in it at all. Performance enhancements are all well and good, but I never get anywhere near maxed out on my current system anyway, so it's not a pressing concern. And I can't really see what else it offers for desktop use.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 08:49:18
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mattox82
The 'classic' desktop is not going anywhere its going to be with us for a long time.
If you dislike the metro interface you don't have to use it; just think of it as a visual start menu. You can remove all metro apps from it and just add normal desktop app icons. Searching for apps is faster and better than using the start menu; press your windows key and start typing and it will dynamically start finding what you are after.
Process of getting to the desktop from boot.
Login -> Press the desktop tile...
Tablets and the metro interface = the future of general purpose computing (along with iOS, Android). With MS/W8 you get the best of both worlds. Dock your tablet and you get the power of a full desktop, undock it and you have a killer tablet. No one is saying that complex apps are going to be immediately touch friendly, its going to require a whole new paradigm of UI and clever thinking. Also this is metro v1.0 the very first interation there is still a long way to go.
I've been running RTM since it was uploaded to MSDN and I'm developer when I have the 'classic' desktop open and am working I rarely ever see metro.
+1. Yes you can treat the metro interface as a different representation of the start menu. In fact there are some new extensions already available that allow you to use a classic start menu if you so desire. I think its unfortunate that they baked metro in without an easy way to change the workflow to favor desktop vs metro. I think of metro as a different view of the desktop which is more suitable to touch interfaces - that part is good but it should have been optional. I'm running Win8 on a touch enabled ultrabook currently and have kind of gotten used to metro for some things but thats primarily because its easy to swype to it using the touchscreen. On a desktop it gets annoying with all the mousing. The performance gains are nice though. I don't really care one way or another about the OS's GUI. Its not like I'm staring at Windows itself all day. I just want it it to get out of my way.
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nathan217
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Re:Windows 8 really is quite outstanding for Sonar
2012/08/29 09:45:53
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Beepster
Well that's good to hear but what about that horrid UI? Did you switch it to the "classic" view or whatever it's called? If Win8 has an option to switch to a Win7 style interface then I'll take a look at it. The weird default set up looks unusable to me. I'm old and dumb and easily confused. Extra performance would possibly entice me away from my beloved Win7 though.
It's really not that bad. I think the UI in Sonar X1 was more of a learning curve than WIN8 was. I actually prefer the tiles to having a bunch of clutter on my desktop. I think the simplicity and clean look of all of the new windows stuff looks so much better than iOS ever has..
Nathan Barton Intel Core i7 860, 8GB DDR3 Sonar PE 8.5.3 Steven Slate Drums Superior Drummer 2.2.2. Jamstix 3 Line 6 Toneport UX2 Variax 300 M Audio Axiom 61 Amplitube 3
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