X1c - My Two Cents

My Sonar Background
I believe it was Producer Edition v.5 or v.6 that I shelled out $499 to beging using Sonar.
Out of all the DAWs I looked at back then it seemed to fit me the best.
For the most part I have been a happy Sonar user up until X1 (I dont call it SX as this reminds me of Cubase SX).
 
Implementation of Features
There will never be 100% unified agreement on this. We will always want something a little different for each of us.
Hopefully Sonar can find a way to get 80-90% of the features we all want as well as the implementation of those features.
I have no real issues with this and thus far am happy with Sonar X1 and the direction it is going, even though I would like a few changes and additions. But overall I like it.
 
Bugs
This is where I lose my mind. If you can't make your F****** S*** work in a reasonable amount of time then you overshot what you are capable of doing. It is like me going out and trying to play QB for the Indy Colts, I just can't pull that off...but I can throw the ball around the backyard just fine. If Sonar still has bugs then Cakewalk MUST FIX THESE and they must do this SOON. If they move on to X2 then I will be moving on to another DAW. If Sonar needs two development teams, one to fix X1 and the other to start X2 work, then SO BE IT!!! DO NOT LET X1 end its product life cycle with BUGS! This is very poor management and once again, people at the top should get fired if this happens. If those people are NOEL and BRANDON then so be it....whoever is making these BONE HEADED decisions to put out CRAP that doesn't work, then get rid of them and get someone who will manage a products life cycle with QUALITY IN MIND and not a short sighted but brief spike in profit.
 
Yes, I AM PISSED! And I am not apologizing for it, get this S*** fixed and be done with it already.
 
 
  EDIT: To be more clear, I am pissed because Cakewalk hasn't posted on this forum that they are 100% committed to a bug free X1 experience. On another thread Brandon posted "no comment" when he should have posted "Whatever it takes, X1 is going to be Solid. I promise."
  
  
 

@dgrm44,

Wow!!!  What a post!!!  I think you have every reason to feel like that.

BlixYZ


this is a hilariously schizophrenic post.  the first half is reflective and measured.  the second half reads like a screaming rant.

what a mess.......
it seems that for many people, x1b was a long wait for nothing.
both versions work well for me, but aside from the prochannel and the browser, i dont like it any better than  8.5

i just want peace in our time!!!!!!!!

Obviously you're not using or needing the features SOME of us do - which are either fully broken or just not working right -- some without workarounds at all at the moment.

I want peace of mind :O  ;)

simpleman


Wow!!
Besides all the trouble in the world currently; especially the nuclear thing happening in Japan.
Ahead of all this, I think Cakewalk has had a problem filling the resources to accomplish what you are alluding to be negligence.
I surmise they cannot afford to find a multiple of good programmers, pay them a good salary and sell to this wretched economy a higher price.

But then you have to ask yourself... If CW can't find enough competent programmers to pull off a complete UI rewrite, why did they choose to do it then? Whose fault is it that it failed? The customers' fault? Some people seem to imply that. And weren't it CW's customers that stated repeatedly that a bug-fix phase is required to flush out all old bugs instead of a list of useless new features? And wasn't it CW that chose to ignore that advice and went ahead to do the exact opposite, and in the process burried Sonar and all of its old bugs in a huge pile of new bugs? Two patches later, and the forum still lights up like a Christmas tree with newly discovered bugs. Not minor bugs - we're talking major features being completely broken. Whose fault is that? Poor innocent CW or the customers who were tricked into dropping $100 for a non-functional DAW 2.0?

SilkTone

simpleman


Wow!!
Besides all the trouble in the world currently; especially the nuclear thing happening in Japan.
Ahead of all this, I think Cakewalk has had a problem filling the resources to accomplish what you are alluding to be negligence.
I surmise they cannot afford to find a multiple of good programmers, pay them a good salary and sell to this wretched economy a higher price.

But then you have to ask yourself... If CW can't find enough competent programmers to pull off a complete UI rewrite, why did they choose to do it then? Whose fault is it that it failed? The customers' fault? Some people seem to imply that. And weren't it CW's customers that stated repeatedly that a bug-fix phase is required to flush out all old bugs instead of a list of useless new features? And wasn't it CW that chose to ignore that advice and went ahead to do the exact opposite, and in the process burried Sonar and all of its old bugs in a huge pile of new bugs? Two patches later, and the forum still lights up like a Christmas tree with newly discovered bugs. Not minor bugs - we're talking major features being completely broken. Whose fault is that? Poor innocent CW or the customers who were tricked into dropping $100 for a non-functional DAW 2.0?

+1 Silk! Although some of that doesn't apply to me...since X1 IS functional for me and does work...the rest of what you posted, remains a mystery. I think that we as users on this forum, have voiced our opinions time and time again....every release it's the same stuff with "old bugs old bugs old bugs". It really is getting old to me. For some things we mention, they take care of us. For other things that we are extremely vocal about, they seem to pass on even when it's a majority decision.
 
Another thing that I have to say annoys me...is how we all ask for things over and over, and they make decisions for us that leave us unhappy ignoring what WE may want our DAW to do. It's almost like we're kept on the edge because of a few things we're happy about, and then a list of things we'd kill to be fixed are just left undone.
 
I'll always admit that I feel X1 has what it takes to be a killer DAW...but I'd much rather see an 8.5 with all the stuff that has been left undone or unfixed, completely fixed. Who's that guy that runs all those polls on here all the time? "A" something his name is I think? If you're reading....how hard would it be to create a poll that just says "what would you rather see as a Sonar user, a new version like X1, or all the things that need to be fixed through the years released in 8.5?" I'd be willing to bet we'd get a majority decision that 8.5 was a great daw and would have been even better if all the things that were broken through the years were fixed. At least that's how I feel and I'm sure I'd not be alone in stating that.
 
The other side of the coin is, I've gotten used to some cool things in X1 that I wouldn't mind seeing in 8.5. But if I had to choose over a new Sonar vs. one that is what I'm used to with all old bugs fixed....you know what my choice would be. :)

Without proper maintenance, sooner or later your going to run out of Duct tape and everything begins to fall apart.

Tommy01


+1 Danny 
I think the poll idea is great! I bet most would say they would rather see 8.5.3 bugs fixed and would be happy, i know i would, but who knows? I know Cake have to make income so i understand making a new version, but geez imagine how happy a place this forum would be right now if they just completely fixed 8.5.3 and maybe added a few things, hell i would have paid the upgrade price just for that!
Tommy

These polls are not scientific, so I don't see the real usefulness.  The sampling isn't balanced.
 
IF, for example, only those who love X1 take the poll -- it would be skewed that way.
And visa versa.
So polls, if they are to have any merit, need a proper sampling and strict methods that adhere to standard practices... otherwise they are just opinions no different than people posting on public forums.
 
 

Danny Danzi


Totally agree with you there Billy, but wouldn't you think even without a poll, that the majority of us here would much rather see an 8.5 with all the old stuff fixed over a new version with old bugs and a bunch of new ones? If that's the case, we don't even need a poll. LOL! From what I've been reading here since Sonar 6, the theme has been to me over-all "please fix old bugs". We see this in every release time and time again. When does something like that hold precidence? When do those cries finally get heard? Maybe the old bugs aren't show stoppers for some, for others they are. My point is, it keeps on coming up with every release and we seem to get deeper into a hole.

Old bugs + new bugs = where we are now. 

My answer is ... yes and no.  Meaning:
 
8.5.3 - FOR ME, has been intensely solid and has allowed me to be very productive with very few gotchyas.  I know it has bugs too, but most have never been a 'worklow' inhibitor for me.    So sure, I wouldn't mind if 8.5.3 has some more attention paid to it ...BUT ->
 
Time marches on.  X1 is here.  CW is not going to turn back.  I wouldn't expect them to.   So being I don't think updates to 8.5.3 is in the cards, I don't see it as productive to throw that ball around.  It ain't gonna go anywhere
 
So with that in mind -- I'd much rather see them dig in deep and hard to really making X1 be as great as it can be.   I don't think it's there yet.
 
My own experience with it (now that I'm back to using it since X1b release, for days and nights now) is that it's not where I would want it to be.  And - I'm only speaking for me, no one else.
 
There are some blatant new bugs that are real showstoppers for me (and some others on the forum).  There are some problems in areas that truly slow me down workflow wise (as compared to not only 8.5.3 but other DAWS).
 
And, I must repeat that I've taken the time to read the entire manual.  I've learned most of it's new stuff.  So I won't accept someone saying "you just don't know it yet."   I may not be a super expert yet, but I know a lot about X1 already.
 
That being said - there are things in their design decisions that truly bother me.  I've mentioned some previously -- like not having a separated synth rack, having overly large fonts in some areas of the app, having cryptic ways of displaying track names, inputs/outputs, etc....  I could go on but you get the point.
 
Some of the things just are, to me, backward thinking not forward.  I see it as an attempt to dumb-down the product to appeal to a new crowd.   My problem with that is I think the new crowd would want top of the line features at some point.  So if X1 is the flagship product ... where do you go from there?
 
At any rate - I gotta get ready (going out dancing hehe).   I think I need a break from this place for a few hours anyway ;)
 
 

ba_midi

Danny Danzi


Totally agree with you there Billy, but wouldn't you think even without a poll, that the majority of us here would much rather see an 8.5 with all the old stuff fixed over a new version with old bugs and a bunch of new ones? If that's the case, we don't even need a poll. LOL! From what I've been reading here since Sonar 6, the theme has been to me over-all "please fix old bugs". We see this in every release time and time again. When does something like that hold precidence? When do those cries finally get heard? Maybe the old bugs aren't show stoppers for some, for others they are. My point is, it keeps on coming up with every release and we seem to get deeper into a hole.

Old bugs + new bugs = where we are now. 

My answer is ... yes and no.  Meaning:
 
8.5.3 - FOR ME, has been intensely solid and has allowed me to be very productive with very few gotchyas.  I know it has bugs too, but most have never been a 'worklow' inhibitor for me.    So sure, I wouldn't mind if 8.5.3 has some more attention paid to it ...BUT ->
 
Time marches on.  X1 is here.  CW is not going to turn back.  I wouldn't expect them to.   So being I don't think updates to 8.5.3 is in the cards, I don't see it as productive to throw that ball around.  It ain't gonna go anywhere
 
So with that in mind -- I'd much rather see them dig in deep and hard to really making X1 be as great as it can be.   I don't think it's there yet.
 
My own experience with it (now that I'm back to using it since X1b release, for days and nights now) is that it's not where I would want it to be.  And - I'm only speaking for me, no one else.
 
There are some blatant new bugs that are real showstoppers for me (and some others on the forum).  There are some problems in areas that truly slow me down workflow wise (as compared to not only 8.5.3 but other DAWS).
 
And, I must repeat that I've taken the time to read the entire manual.  I've learned most of it's new stuff.  So I won't accept someone saying "you just don't know it yet."   I may not be a super expert yet, but I know a lot about X1 already.
 
That being said - there are things in their design decisions that truly bother me.  I've mentioned some previously -- like not having a separated synth rack, having overly large fonts in some areas of the app, having cryptic ways of displaying track names, inputs/outputs, etc....  I could go on but you get the point.
 
Some of the things just are, to me, backward thinking not forward.  I see it as an attempt to dumb-down the product to appeal to a new crowd.   My problem with that is I think the new crowd would want top of the line features at some point.  So if X1 is the flagship product ... where do you go from there?
 
At any rate - I gotta get ready (going out dancing hehe).   I think I need a break from this place for a few hours anyway ;)
 
 

Oh I didn't mean to imply we need to turn back. I'm simply stating that there are old bugs that have gone unfixed for a long time. As they go unfixed and creep into the new version, we then have the NEW bugs to worry about as well. I just see this as a problem. Though I DO enjoy X1 and some of the new features, my point is, I would have been WAY happier with a more complete version of 8.5 over all the new stuff that has brought on new stuff with challenges we may not see an end to for quite some time. In a sense there, you the customer must evolve with the software and hope that one of these times, they'll get it to where it's right for you. I don't really approve of that to be honest and I'm not going to make this mistake ever again.
 
X1 may be the flagship, but it's quite obvious from the forum comments that the community majority does not feel this way. It's a flag ship that is a bit more of a boat than a yacht at this time and this is what needs to be altered. Without Ben and Panu's mods, I wouldn't be using it at all to be completely honest with you. I dunno Billy...I know time marches on and we have to change with the times and so do the devs in this field. I just have a hard time with supporting something that continuosly releases with some broken features that don't get fixed...or you have to buy something new that has these fixes while the 6 versions you paid for are STILL broken in some ways.
 
Even if some of the things aren't show stoppers, I almost feel like with each purchase of a Sonar product, "maybe they'll get it right this time" and to be honest, my patience for that has worn thin. We "almost" get something right with each release...but after a year, the updates stop. What about those that may not be able to upgrade each time? For some of them, they are better off...but still, when something is not working properly, no matter how old it may be, I sort of feel there's a bit of an injustice there. Do we constantly write it off and just buy a new version each year? If you think about it, that's EXACTLY what we've all been doing.
 
Wave Lab lost me as a customer because of the horrendous CD writing issues with their products for *some* users. I've found work-arounds using other software. There just comes a time man....when we have to know when to say "When". I seriously don't mean to sound like I'm bashing. I'm just stating what I feel is the obvious. We get so excited when the talk of a new Sonar is coming out, we sort of forget about all this bug stuff.
 
Remember the days of running into a console and right into a 24 track tape machine? Yeah, it's limited compared to what we have today...but one thing you never worried about when you bought a rig like that, was bugs that would control your entire work flow and alter your entire business. I have really solid results with the older versions of Sonar. Though they are not perfect, to me they are more perfect than what we have now which is considered the flag ship. Are we simply ignoring the obvious? Wasn't Sonar 8 a pretty horrendous experience as well at first? It sure was for me until the last patch.
 
Not all of us have the patience to endure the trials and tribulations of the software world. The legitimate excuses of "there are so many system configs out today, it's near impossible to test on all of them" is not always something someone can swallow easily. That's like saying "the new car you just bought may not be suitable for all roads because we didn't test it on all of them." The only difference between that and this, is the price.

That's a fine post Danny,

It's like you were saying how plug ins are like video games- it's the same old stuff with better graphics! But all the DAW makers are doing it.

I think all the technology actually slows one down. Instead of just plugging into a mixer and recording the results we have these millions of options and more options added each year because that's how companies sell software. And they can't slow down or make it more expensive (to raise quality) because the competition will crucify them.

I've figured, for my own needs, that I only need a DAW as a glorified tape recorder. I spend my modest music budget on the things that never become obsolete with newer Operating Systems, mics and guitars.

Still hard not to buy a new version of a DAW when they promise the world however.

I agree with most off the things that were written here even with the passive-agressive OP.
When i read the first post i thought 'Here we go again!' and it does have to much '*' for my taste. But the posts that followed brought the tone down and were very thoughtful.

My 2 cents:
I'm new here, not enough posts to pass the image of a serious user of Sonar or even as a musician/producer. Music is just a hobby for now.
But i have a programmer background, i studied programming languages, computer hardware, etc and worked for some years in that area, not now though.
A guy i now, went to an interview at a company that creates software for medical equipment and Hospitals. In the end of the interview, the interviewer asked him if he was certain that he really wanted that job and if he thought he had the competence to work in that area as a programmer and debugger. And he explained: - "You certainly don't want that a patient dies because of a bug in the software you created, do you?"

I'm tired of reading that every piece of software has bugs, etc. But 'bugfree' software is not impossible, we use it everyday without even knowing it.
I wish that the 'b' in X1b was for 'bugfree', it's not, but it's a demonstration of the hard work the Bakers are doing right now.
In this thread some wrote that they prefer 8.5.3, didn't Sonar 8 and 8.5 have bugs also? If it didn't why the 8.5.3 update? We just didn't reach the 8.5.3 level for X1 yet but i believe we will. After all what major improvements would a X2 bring?
@ CW: Perfect X1, no matter how much updates you'll need for that, you have the rest of the alfabet at your disposal. 
As a paying costumer i was disappointed with X1 for all the reasons stated above by the previous posters. I like the X1 GUI more than the 8.5.3. That was one of the things that drove me towards X1.
The release of X1 also had something to do with competition. DAW 2.0 was a step forward to gain some advantage/leverage on the competitors. Did it work?

Zo


All i can say is that i'm keeping my 8.5 box like a mpc 60 ;)

The number one issue for guyz like me or Dann or others is the stability and the ability to make sessions without any issues ....8.5 deliver it , X1 not yet (still didn't used X1B....but i have feedbacks )

Bugs is one thing , crash is anotha .....

I aslo suggest that cakewalk before developping something , make (like a lot do) a panel (producer endorsed, long time users, ect/....) test/brain storming/ before starting to programm ....I have the feeling that the validation process is from bakers to nippons and thats'all....(i'm not talking about beta tester that are way later intergrated in the process)....

+1

Here is an interesting read about software development cycle  Software Development Cycle

i'm waiting for cw to do what ableton did: "we will fix it before we go on to a new product. updates will be free, and when we do go on to the next project, we will offer a 33% discount on the new one to all early adopters/actual beta testers."

jps


Here is an interesting read about software development cycle  Software Development Cycle

ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!