Yes...that's what I thought YOU meant JT...but I was asking John about his DJing which I bet isn't like that at all...but of course, I could be wrong...I so often am;-)

BTW, is it OK if I just refer to you here on the forum as JT??  That way there won't be any confusion regarding the "Johns" thing?
 
 
Nope...see I was right for a change.  While your DJ experience is similar to JTs John, ol pal.  It's really pretty much a fish/bicycle proposition.  But, as you say, hopefully both of you "got the room rockin":-)
 

yorolpal


Yes...that's what I thought YOU meant JT...but I was asking John about his DJing which I bet isn't like that at all...but of course, I could be wrong...I so often am;-)

BTW, is it OK if I just refer to you here on the forum as JT??  That way there won't be any confusion regarding the "Johns" thing?
 
 
Nope...see I was right for a change.  While your DJ experience is similar to JTs John, ol pal.  It's really pretty much a fish/bicycle proposition.  But, as you say, hopefully both of you "got the room rockin":-)
 

Lots of people call me JT in real life. I don't love it, but I will at least recognise the difference. :)

Yea, I'm averse to destroying vinyl or guitars in the name of rock (tho I did love Hendrix and ol Pete Townsend so).  Thank goodness they can do all that in software now! 

I must be getting too old to understand "new world" humor... alas.

J

I would like to see them dual in guitar software and destroy the computers. Now that would be a show. We need that kind of show in this day and age.

bitflipper

DJs are musicians, too.

Yikes. And I was right there with ya, Craig, but you lost me on that one.

There are really (at least) two kinds of DJ, mobile DJs and more "producer" DJs. The mobile ones are the ones most people who aren't familiar with DJs think of - you know, the guy who plays Barbra Streisand cuts at your cousin's wedding.

But DJs these days are a whole other thing. If the criterion for being a musician is having proficiency on an instrument, I'd include DJ controllers as an instrument that require considerable skill and practice. It's an easier instrument to get started on than, say, cello, but mastering it is not easy. DJs are not only integrating effects into music, but I know several who create their own tracks to include in a mix.

And, part of DJing involves complex fades among multiple signal sources. In that sense, it's more of an arranger skill set. One guy at EQ coined the term "performing engineer" to describe DJs, and that fits some as well. Think of it as mixing a song, but you have to do it real time, and make zero mistakes.

I know of no musical discipline that is so unforgiving in terms of crowd interaction. In a band, if I miss a chord, probably no one will notice because the keyboard and bass cover it up . But if a DJ does just one "train wreck" transition in the course of a multi-hour set - end of line. A DJ has to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the music they bring to a gig, read the crowd to know what to cue up when, never ever ever miss a transition or have beats not match as they transition seamlessly from one cut into another, and if they're really good, they match pitch, scratch, do special effects, and are able to build dynamics over several hours. It's not easy.

The DJs I've worked with have by and large been very open-minded. I've jammed on guitar with some of them, and it was mutually beneficial. They would love it when I held a sustained note and they built up a beat underneath, or played a rhythm guitar part where they'd drop out the music while I kept playing, then bring the music crashing back in again.

There are DJs, and there are DJs. Once you've seen one who really knows how to craft an incredible set, you'll never wonder whether they're musicians or not. And if you think it's easy...try it sometime!

Anderton


Well, I do my album assembly and overall mastering in Studio One Pro (with the prior "detail work" in Sound Forge, Wavelab, or Audition, although interestingly Sonar is often best for click removal), my live performances in Ableton Live, quite a bit of composition in Reason, and classical sessions at a local studio in Pro Tools. I also do all the online examples for loop libraries I review in Electronic Musician using Sony Acid. So I'm an equal opportunity fanboy

The reason why I've learned a lot of different software is so I can choose the right one for the right job. For this project, based on the results so far Sonar was the right choice.

What, no Cubase? 


Seriously though, I'm interested in the idea of Studio One as a mastering suite... I haven't really tried it out yet, but I'm wondering what features it has that makes you go to it for final assembly stuff?

John T

Anderton


* Layers are useful for more than just comping. I'm using them as ersatz track folders when I want common processing for related tracks and don't want to go through sends.

I've recently started doing this instead of bussing, where appropriate. For some things, you still want the level controls on the different parts, but for say, layered claps or something like that, it's a great approach.

Yes, many of us have been doing this for years... a track is just another bus in SONAR.

Which is why those of us who have used track layers long enough to know what is broken in them are so very disappointed that Cakewalk has once again spent a year and completely ignored it's clip envelope disaster.

The clip envelope disaster effectively undermines the potential power and functionality of track layers.

Developing a new 4th or 5th option for EQ was evidently more important than fixing a broken feature.

So, one of the most powerful features within SONAR, e.g. track layers, is left as a crippled time bomb waiting for someone to innocently assume that the clip envelopes work as advertised until they discover that the envelopes vaporize or disintegrate into fragments as they work with further clip placement.

It's been reported and acknowledged for many years and the official prognosis from Cakewalk is (I am paraphrasing) "this one is going to be hard to fix."


That's one of the things I am willing to pay to have fixed... because when track layers actually work without the risk of losing all your envelope editing work then Cakewalk's SONAR will have realized and finally delivered one of the great promises it made when it rolled out Layers as a feature.


best regards,
mike

Hi Project M,

 It's been discussed in great detail for the past 6 years or so... it's all buried here within the forum.
 
 In a nutshell, clip envelopes, within a track, that overlap on the timeline become very fragile and disintegrate into fragments when you make further edits like a drag or drop or slip edit.

 It's no big deal... unless you realize how powerful track layers can be.

 It's no big deal... unless you realize that the track layers feature is one thing that SONAR does that Pro Tools just doesn't do. It's one of those SONAR can be better than Pro Tools features that I'd like to enjoy and be able to use at face value the way it is described in the sales literature.

Cakewalk's idea for track layers is fantastic.

I hope that someday Cakewalk fixes track layers so that the clip envelopes work properly.

 best regards,
mike

Anderton

bitflipper

DJs are musicians, too.

Yikes. And I was right there with ya, Craig, but you lost me on that one.

There are really (at least) two kinds of DJ, mobile DJs and more "producer" DJs. The mobile ones are the ones most people who aren't familiar with DJs think of - you know, the guy who plays Barbra Streisand cuts at your cousin's wedding.

But DJs these days are a whole other thing. If the criterion for being a musician is having proficiency on an instrument, I'd include DJ controllers as an instrument that require considerable skill and practice. It's an easier instrument to get started on than, say, cello, but mastering it is not easy. DJs are not only integrating effects into music, but I know several who create their own tracks to include in a mix.

And, part of DJing involves complex fades among multiple signal sources. In that sense, it's more of an arranger skill set. One guy at EQ coined the term "performing engineer" to describe DJs, and that fits some as well. Think of it as mixing a song, but you have to do it real time, and make zero mistakes.

I know of no musical discipline that is so unforgiving in terms of crowd interaction. In a band, if I miss a chord, probably no one will notice because the keyboard and bass cover it up . But if a DJ does just one "train wreck" transition in the course of a multi-hour set - end of line. A DJ has to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the music they bring to a gig, read the crowd to know what to cue up when, never ever ever miss a transition or have beats not match as they transition seamlessly from one cut into another, and if they're really good, they match pitch, scratch, do special effects, and are able to build dynamics over several hours. It's not easy.

The DJs I've worked with have by and large been very open-minded. I've jammed on guitar with some of them, and it was mutually beneficial. They would love it when I held a sustained note and they built up a beat underneath, or played a rhythm guitar part where they'd drop out the music while I kept playing, then bring the music crashing back in again.

There are DJs, and there are DJs. Once you've seen one who really knows how to craft an incredible set, you'll never wonder whether they're musicians or not. And if you think it's easy...try it sometime!

Thanks Craig for clarifying the DJ myth......I too didn't realize the complexity of their skill (until now)!!
+1 for the Advanced video and I'd love to see more indepth Sonar videos from you.
 
I know you've been mentioning Sonitus and Pro Channel regularly when mixing, but what other go to plugs (non-Sonar) do you also rely/use regularly (on clips, tracks, bus's etc..)?

There are DJs, and there are DJs. Once you've seen one who really knows how to craft an incredible set, you'll never wonder whether they're musicians or not. And if you think it's easy...try it sometime!

Why this confusion of nomenclature with level of difficulty? DJ's are musicians because DJing is not easy? I suppose under that definition, mastering engineers are musicians, too.

Well I am more in tune with Dave but I can see what Grieg is saying. I do know guys that do exactly what Grieg is describing.

How about calling them artists?

One thing that a mixer or mastering engineer don't do is perform. A DJ on any level has to. On any level skill is required for DJing well. How much is debatable. As long as a performance is involved the attribute of musician or artist can well apply. I do understand the unwillingness to apply musician to a DJ no matter how skilled but does it really matter?

Heck there is plenty of music out there to go around for all. 

bitflipper


OK, I can live with "artist". DJs, audio engineers, dancers and masters of crochet all qualify.

LOL.

Dave the only reason I'm throwing artist out there is it seems today everyone is an artist no matter what they do.

Now you've done it. You had to bring that into this. LOL

Let the games begin!

bitflipper

There are DJs, and there are DJs. Once you've seen one who really knows how to craft an incredible set, you'll never wonder whether they're musicians or not. And if you think it's easy...try it sometime!

Why this confusion of nomenclature with level of difficulty? DJ's are musicians because DJing is not easy? I suppose under that definition, mastering engineers are musicians, too.

As usual, bitflipper, you hit the nail square on the head.  Mixing in real time is not the same as playing an instrument.  That in no way takes away from the skill set or level of artistry but they are different things.