JazzSinger
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X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
When you clone the last track (or tracks) in a folder, it disappears.
A search reveals it has been created in the NEXT folder!
So you try to drag and drop it back to the bottom of the correct folder. Not possible.
After much fiddling, you find the only way is to drag it ABOVE the last track in the folder, then drag the last track back above the cloned one!
This bug has been in existence since Sonar 4.
When the cosmetics of the Folders was adjusted, it would have been nice had the underlying code also been addressed.
The drag-and-drop issue has been discussed before. One suggestion was making the last row or two of pixels turn into a drop zone when dragging starts.
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moffdnb
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/02 05:02:52
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I've seen this also. It can happen anywhere if you are using VSTi's as "Simple tracks" (Combine midi/audio in one track)
Then you may not even be able to save the project. "Disk may be full"
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Freddie H
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/02 05:51:05
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+1 also--------> If you have selected a track above a FOLDER let say TRACK 34, just an normal Audio Track or MIDI track. The FOLDER starting under track 34----> FOLDER TRACK track number35 with inserted tracks in FOLDER Track 35,36,37,38..
IF you insert, clone what ever... "Right click"-Menu" a new track below TRACK 34, the new track will be inserted inside the FOLDER as well???  It should not!
post edited by Freddie H - 2011/09/02 05:53:01
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pwal
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/02 10:00:11
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curse those zero-based arrays
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vksf01
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/02 13:36:07
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yeah, what i've gotten into the habit of doing is when i clone a track, to change the track number (in the dialog box) to 1 LESS than the current track. then when it clones it, i then manually move it. annoying, but i guess it's a workaround.
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ba_midi
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/02 14:48:22
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Freddie H
+1
also--------> If you have selected a track above a FOLDER let say TRACK 34, just an normal Audio Track or MIDI track.
The FOLDER starting under track 34----> FOLDER TRACK track number35 with inserted tracks in FOLDER Track 35,36,37,38..
IF you insert, clone what ever... "Right click"-Menu" a new track below TRACK 34, the new track will be inserted inside the FOLDER as well???
It should not!
Totally agree. It's sloppy for sure.
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Tripecac
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/05 14:31:45
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I get the same bug.
Did someone file a bug report?
tripecac.com
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ba_midi
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/05 16:23:19
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Tripecac
I get the same bug.
Did someone file a bug report?
This bug has been known and discussed for many versions. I think the proper question might be "How many" bug reports have been filed? 
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VariousArtist
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/06 15:49:05
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+1
My workaround has been to add tracks with a blank MIDI track inside them. Thereafter any tracks I insert or clone ALWAYS occur BEFORE the blank MIDI track.
Yeah, this bug has been around for a few version/patches and I think I've submitted it a few times too.
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ampfixer
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/06 16:20:29
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It would be nice if registered users could see the list of bugs reported and their current status. I find it hard to believe a bug like this has not been addressed.
Can anyone guess why something obvious would get through several major releases while obscure issues are being fixed?
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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JazzSinger
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/12 11:19:18
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I just got a reply from Cakewalk. It is AS INTENDED. The reply explains what is happening. But it is clearly written by programmers for programmers. Here it is, in summary: If your current arrangement is this: Folder 1: -- [1] Vocal Track -- [2] Guitar Track Folder 2: -- [3] Bass Track -- [4] Drum Track and you decide to clone the "Guitar Track" and set Starting Track to"3" (my note: this is the default!!!), the result will be this: Folder 1: -- [1] Vocal Track -- [2] Guitar Track Folder 2: -- [3] Guitar Track (clone) -- [4] Bass Track -- [5] Drum Track (my comment: Why? This is neither intuitive nor logical.) (Below is my rewrite of the Cakewalk explanation once I'd grasped it) You must first manually reset the starting track to 2 to achieve the following: Folder 1: -- [1] Vocal Track -- [2] Guitar Track (clone) -- [3] Guitar Track Folder 2: -- [4] Bass Track -- [5] Drum Track Does anyone else share my opinion that this a workaround and not an AS INTENDED? If I clone the bottom track then surely it should create a slot at the bottom of Folder 1? I am evidently kicking the slot creation code into action only if I create it ABOVE the original track. They made no comment on my remark that you cannot drag and drop a track to the bottom of a folder. After reading this explanation, I can well imagine why. My guess is there is some dependency between the folders code and the track numbering code that is hard to fix. This code should be reviewed when the programmer has time. I shall put in a feature request.
post edited by JazzSinger - 2011/09/12 11:30:38
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ba_midi
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/12 12:04:28
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I just got a reply from Cakewalk. It is AS INTENDED. My response would be ... If that's "As intended" - then you guys are in the wrong business LOL
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vksf01
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/12 12:23:25
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wow! that reminds me of the classic developer's saying "it's not a bug, it's a feature"
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frankandfree
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/12 12:48:09
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"As intended" just means that the code is doing what it's supposed to do, and the scenario doesn't fit in the bug category. It doesn't mean "that's optimal behavior, so forget it".
If "as intended" is not "as expected", the best answer is a feature request ticket of an option that gives the expected result.
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/12 12:54:47
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The default behavior for clone track is to place it after the track you are cloning.
If the "Clone Track(s)" dialog defaulted the "Starting Track" to the track # that you were cloning, I guess it would prevent this confusion in the case of track folders. Technically at that point it is placing the newly cloned track above the track you are cloning (not sure if that would have unintended consequences or not).
If you take the tip from the problem reporter regarding starting track into consideration, then it is working as you would expect given the "Starting Track" setting.
Don't get too caught up on the auto-replies from the problem reporter. They still get reviewed no matter what and in this case it was still sent over to product management for review by yours truly.
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VariousArtist
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/12 18:42:39
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Thanks Ryan for chiming in here and I sincerely hope this does get reviewed.
It's a disconcerting feature at best, and rather than split hairs about whether it's a bug or not I believe it is something that should be improved.
Please take the following as constructive criticism designed only to make for a better product. Whatever was intended by the designers, I have to agree with the general sentiment on this thread by saying that the user experience of this feature is not expected. Also I cannot think of many examples where I would want a cloned track to be copied into another folder, especially since this would not be the behaviour of any other track unless it was the last.
To me it would be as unexpected as copying a regular Windows file within a Windows folder, seeing that nothing happened and then only to discover a copy in another Windows folder. I know there are other subtleties involved, but in a nutshell the surprise element to me would be the same.
Another disconcerting feature is when you add a track to an empty folder, that the folder jumps to the bottom of the list. As the kids say these days... "OMG" ;-)
Just keeping things light with my last sentence, but I hope you know what I mean
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Stone House Studios
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/12 19:21:44
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I tried to chime in on this three times today - but got interrupted each time so . . . .
It would be nice to know the "logic" behind folders in Sonar. Obviously, they are not like file folders, but merely "groupings." (Well, so it seems to me)
The track flow of cloning seems to indicate that folders have a "soft" upper marking, but a "hard" lower - or else when a track clone was inserted, the resulting numbering change would push a lower track into the next folder down. This doesn't happen. Yet when a new clone is made from a bottom track, it is added in front of the track below, and consequently into a lower folder - because the default says "Starting at" and not "after."
The question is, did a programming choice have to be made to not let re-numbered tracks move through a lower limit, so then the only choice becomes adding above?
Brian
Core i7-6700@3.40Ghz Windows 10x64 16 GB RAM Sonar Platinum/Studio One PreSonus Studio 192
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Mully
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/12 21:29:31
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The weirdness is when you clone a foldered track, it doesn't clone to the same folder as the original, therefore not a true clone... IMO anyway. It interrupts your workflow after cloning because you then have to go and 'get it'. The clone feature was added before the folder feature so is basically a step behind as I see it. Cheers.
ASUS H270, i7-7700, JLM BA & 1290, LA2A Opto4, loads of guff.
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Tripecac
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/13 04:29:12
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If it's not a programming bug, then it is a design flaw. Hopefully Cakewalk will do whatever it takes to finally fix it (and the many other repeatedly reported bugs/flaws in X1c) before asking us to pay for the next version. Is it in Cakewalk's best interest (or that of any commercial software developer) to fix all the bugs, though? If so, many of us would never upgrade!
post edited by Tripecac - 2011/09/13 04:35:34
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JazzSinger
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/13 07:39:59
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk
]
The default behavior for clone track is to place it after the track you are cloning.
And that is what I would expect. But that does not explain why it being dropped out of the bottom of the folder. If the "Clone Track(s)" dialog defaulted the "Starting Track" to the track # that you were cloning, I guess it would prevent this confusion in the case of track folders. Technically at that point it is placing the newly cloned track above the track you are cloning (not sure if that would have unintended consequences or not).
Nonono! You are thinking like a programmer! That would be the same workaround, just automated! What it should do is put the cloned track under it's parent just as it does now BUT IN THE SAME FOLDER! Please do not program a workaround. Think like a user, and make it work in that way. If you take the tip from the problem reporter regarding starting track into consideration, then it is working as you would expect given the "Starting Track" setting.
I was the problem reporter. The tip was not from me, it was from Cakewalk. I just reported back. Don't get too caught up on the auto-replies from the problem reporter. They still get reviewed no matter what and in this case it was still sent over to product management for review by yours truly.
The automated reply was very humanly written. I don't think it was from a machine, unless it is standard practice to reply to all bug reports with a workaround. I am comforted that you have picked up on this, Ryan. But I am very worried that the disconnect between the original intention behind Folders (convenience) and its programmatic realisation is being perpetuated here.
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JazzSinger
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/13 07:41:56
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Oh. You meant the Problem Reporter Server. :Oops:
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guitartrek
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/13 08:08:10
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk
]
The default behavior for clone track is to place it after the track you are cloning.
If the "Clone Track(s)" dialog defaulted the "Starting Track" to the track # that you were cloning, I guess it would prevent this confusion in the case of track folders. Technically at that point it is placing the newly cloned track above the track you are cloning (not sure if that would have unintended consequences or not).
If you take the tip from the problem reporter regarding starting track into consideration, then it is working as you would expect given the "Starting Track" setting.
Don't get too caught up on the auto-replies from the problem reporter. They still get reviewed no matter what and in this case it was still sent over to product management for review by yours truly.
Ryan - I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts here. I am a software designer. Every time this topic comes up on the forum it is like a hornets nest. There has never been one user that has ever defended Cakewalk's approach to this. Not one. That alone should tell you that the current logic is not intuitive. The main issue is whether you consider a track's Folder to be one of it's "properties". If you do consider the folder a "property" of a track, then if you check "clone properties" the cloned track should inherit the folder of the track being cloned. Normally, in a "record based" program, the Track record would have a keyed field - Folder. So if you copy the Track and all it's fields, the Folder of the new track would not be changed. This is intuitive. However, Sonar's tracks are obviously not set up that way. But it really doesn't matter how the tracks are stored, the software needs to be intuitive.
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Freddie H
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/13 09:19:37
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk
]
The default behavior for clone track is to place it after the track you are cloning.
If the "Clone Track(s)" dialog defaulted the "Starting Track" to the track # that you were cloning, I guess it would prevent this confusion in the case of track folders. Technically at that point it is placing the newly cloned track above the track you are cloning (not sure if that would have unintended consequences or not).
If you take the tip from the problem reporter regarding starting track into consideration, then it is working as you would expect given the "Starting Track" setting.
Don't get too caught up on the auto-replies from the problem reporter. They still get reviewed no matter what and in this case it was still sent over to product management for review by yours truly.
LOL Perhaps you should change the deafult behavior then? I mean everyone seems to recognize it as a bug ? 
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Freddie H
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/13 09:20:41
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Freddie H
+1
also--------> If you have selected a track above a FOLDER let say TRACK 34, just an normal Audio Track or MIDI track.
The FOLDER starting under track 34----> FOLDER TRACK track number35 with inserted tracks in FOLDER Track 35,36,37,38..
IF you insert, clone what ever... "Right click"-Menu" a new track below TRACK 34, the new track will be inserted inside the FOLDER as well???
It should not!
*example So this is deafult behavior then`?
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/13 10:23:56
(permalink)
Hey Folks, I'm not sure why anyone is still trying to convince me this could be better. I'm agreeing with you and took the time to gather duplicate reports and forward this internally. I was just trying to clarify that by understanding the "Starting Track" behavior, it makes this very easy to work around. Is it frustrating to have to change the "Starting Track" value manually each time you clone a track? Sure, I agree. It is still faster then dragging the track afterwards though. When someome tells me they are confused about why something is happening, I like to take the time to explain it as I understand it. Please don't confuse my attempts to explain current implementation with me ignoring something could be improved. I'm not thinking like a programmer, I'm thinking like a support rep who also uses the software. Being used to this behavior, the above method is what I personally use when faced with this specific scenario. Since I can't change the behavior myself, the best thing I can do for you folks is: 1) Explain how it works (currently) 2) Forward concerns to the correct department internally that might make this easier for users to work with in the future And this is exactly what I've done. Don't worry, I'm on your side :) Thanks for the helpful feedback!
post edited by Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk] - 2011/09/13 10:27:00
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JazzSinger
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/13 10:45:05
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Okiedoke, sorry from me. I wasn't sure if you were saying, "this is how it is, folks, and here's why" or if you were saying "this is how it is and it is bad". Another observation: The cloned guitar track gets pushed out of Folder 1. But the Drum Track does NOT get pushed out of Folder 2 as a consequence! Odd. Speaking as a programmer, I find it difficult to understand how the folders and tracks are connected to each other.
post edited by JazzSinger - 2011/09/13 10:46:26
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JazzSinger
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/13 11:02:36
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk
]
Don't get too caught up on the auto-replies from the problem reporter. They still get reviewed no matter what and in this case it was still sent over to product management for review by yours truly.
One final comment, then: some mechanism is needed for the Problem Reporter to reassure the user reporting the problem that it really is being taken seriously. To me, it did not look like an auto-reply. I genuinely had the feeling I was being fobbed off.
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Tripecac
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/13 13:35:28
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This is so clearly a bug/flaw (and an apparently easy one to fix) that one might suspect it's been filed under Upgrade Incentive.
It is not in Cakewalk's best interest to fix all bugs, especially with a paid upgrade due out in a few months.
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Anderton
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/14 01:16:43
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[oops, didn't see Ryan already responded. But I'll leave my theory up as to why this happens for your amusement] Here’s why I think this happens. You can change a folder track’s height to see stats on the track. If it shows (for example) five audio tracks, as far as the folder knows, it’s a folder with five audio tracks. If you tell it to clone a track starting at track 6, you have now asked Sonar to go "outside" the folder - remember, it knows only that the folder has five tracks. Sonar has no way of knowing that your intention is to clone the track within the folder. For all it knows, you may be wanting to clone the track to create a track to put in a new folder. But, if you tell Sonar you want to start the clone at the same number as the last track within the folder, then it knows your intention is to include the clone in the folder. So really, the issue is whether being in a folder is part of the track's "properties" or not. As someone who often clones a track from a folder to create a new track in a different folder (e.g., vocal settings are perfect, but I want separate folders for lead and harmony vocals, or separate folders for higher and lower harmonies), I don't mind entering a number when staying within a folder, as if it didn't work this way, I'd probably have to enter something to tell Sonar when I didn't want the clone from a folder track to remain in that folder track.
post edited by Anderton - 2011/09/14 01:27:53
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JazzSinger
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Re:X1c still with Clone Last Track in Folder bug (since Sonar 4)
2011/09/14 04:00:06
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Anderton
As someone who often clones a track from a folder to create a new track in a different folder (e.g., vocal settings are perfect, but I want separate folders for lead and harmony vocals, or separate folders for higher and lower harmonies),
How do you remember which track number corresponds to which folder? (The modal dialog prevents you from quickly scrolling down to check.) Better to allow the user to select a Folder name, then followed possibly by a track number/name. EDIT: Evidently the superimposition of new concepts on top of old ways of working is at the core of the problem. Either we use a flat multitrack tape recorder model, or we use real folders with subfolders as is appropriate for modern PCs with vast storage capacity. Trying to support both at the same time is proving less than ideal. A thorough re-think is probably needed.
post edited by JazzSinger - 2011/09/14 05:32:41
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