Alex Red
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X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
Hello all, I am finding a huge problem with Sonar X2 Producer... I am setting up the mix of a drum set, the overheads are all recorded as mono clips, so, to avoid an overload opf tracks, I put all of them under a single track as clips on 1 lane for each overhead... Now, I put into each clip a 'stereoizer' and then a 'stereo spacer' effect, to give them more depth and position in the stage, and letting the track pan to the center... Well, all it works at clip level, I can see the 'stereo spacer' working fine, and its stereo output meters levels reflecting the stereo positioning of the sound... But then, leaving the track pan centered, it appears like the track outputs the sound always in mono, like at the center of the stage... its Vu meters are always at same level, whatever the stereo spacer vu meter are, and the sound, appears to be mono... Why is thi happening...? Is the track panning forcing my stereo built image to be at center..? But then, if I put a stereo clip into the track, and I let the track panned to the center, the sound appears to be panned as the original source stereo sound is... why this is not happening with a source sound panned by an effect...? It seems to me that if the source is a mono clip, anything coming out of it, even if FXed, will be treated as mono, even a stereo image coming from it... Could anybody explain me this...? Thanks for any help and advice... Alex
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CJaysMusic
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/27 18:40:41
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Its best to keep all drum track seperate in mono tracks and pan them accordingly. If you put them all in one track, that track needs to be stereo and the panning needs to be doen before they enter the stereo track.
Just leave them as mono tracks and keep them seperated. you can get great stereo images from all mono tracks. Most tracks in music are mono
Cj
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Alex Red
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/27 18:55:49
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Hi CJays... Thanks for the reply... The Mix already has almost 60 tracks ( almost all stereos, Orchestral session ), and, I do not want to to add another 10 tracks more just for the overheads, their recordings and performance would not be worth 10 separate tracks, but I need to add them more depth... So, I still wonder why technically this happens...there is no clue in the signal flow documentation why may suggest this outcome... at least for me...he..he.. Alex
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Funkybot
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/27 20:22:18
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Hello all, I am finding a huge problem with Sonar X2 Producer... I am setting up the mix of a drum set, the overheads are all recorded as mono clips, so, to avoid an overload opf tracks, I put all of them under a single track as clips on 1 lane for each overhead... Now, I put into each clip a 'stereoizer' and then a 'stereo spacer' effect, to give them more depth and position in the stage, and letting the track pan to the center... Well, all it works at clip level, I can see the 'stereo spacer' working fine, and its stereo output meters levels reflecting the stereo positioning of the sound... But then, leaving the track pan centered, it appears like the track outputs the sound always in mono, like at the center of the stage... its Vu m Alex Red
Hello all, I am finding a huge problem with Sonar X2 Producer... I am setting up the mix of a drum set, the overheads are all recorded as mono clips, so, to avoid an overload opf tracks, I put all of them under a single track as clips on 1 lane for each overhead... Now, I put into each clip a 'stereoizer' and then a 'stereo spacer' effect, to give them more depth and position in the stage, and letting the track pan to the center... Well, all it works at clip level, I can see the 'stereo spacer' working fine, and its stereo output meters levels reflecting the stereo positioning of the sound... But then, leaving the track pan centered, it appears like the track outputs the sound always in mono, like at the center of the stage... its Vu meters are always at same level, whatever the stereo spacer vu meter are, and the sound, appears to be mono... Why is thi happening...? Is the track panning forcing my stereo built image to be at center..? But then, if I put a stereo clip into the track, and I let the track panned to the center, the sound appears to be panned as the original source stereo sound is... why this is not happening with a source sound panned by an effect...? It seems to me that if the source is a mono clip, anything coming out of it, even if FXed, will be treated as mono, even a stereo image coming from it... Could anybody explain me this...? Thanks for any help and advice... Alex
That is a very strange workflow. First, where did you put the mics? Why do you have 10 overheads? Normally, overhead mics are the two(!) mics directly above the kit. Other mics might be placed around the room, these are called room mics. Some mics are placed close to the drums, these are direct mics. I've never heard of having 10 mics directly above the kit... Now normally, two mono overheads will capture different pieces of the kit, that when combined, create a right/left stereo image that represents the left to right location of pieces of the drum kit. You shouldn't be using a fake stereo effect when you have two mono overheads, and have the option of creating a real stereo mix by using them. Pan the mono tracks where you want in the stereo field and create a true stereo track instead! Also, if your interleave button is set to mono, then the stereoizer plugin you're using will output mono anyway (which might be what your describing). Again, I can't see any good reason to go with fake stereo as opposed to real stereo with panning. If you don't want lots of tracks, create a track folder. You can also take your mono tracks, hard pan them, and bounce them to one stereo track. Don't want the original mono tracks in the Track View or Mixer? Then use the Track Manager to hide them, while keeping them in the project.
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Alex Red
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/28 06:31:33
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Hello Funky... thanks for the reply... However... Sound are not recorded by me, so, I can do nothing about it, so, I have no real stereo...I have those, and with those I need to work... However, apart the workflow, which is not the point of the post, the problem remains... Of course the track interleave is switched to stereo, but, no way to make the sound to appear stereo like from the clip output when output from the track... I already use a lot of folders, of course, but I want to understand the reason of the problem of the thread, even if this may not be the right way to use the clips/tracks... Thanks Alex
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Danny Danzi
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/28 06:45:29
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Hi Alex,
Here's what I'd do if I were you. The over-heads should all be left in mono but should be panned accordingly. Over-heads should not be centered and mono while having a stereo enhancement plug on them like you did. Each of the OH's need to be panned correctly. From there, create a bus and send all the OH outputs to that bus. The end result should be a a stereo sound that you can control all from the bus using one fader.
Here's what's happening with your current situation. You are taking mono tracks and are attempting to make them in stereo using stereo enhancement. Stereo enhancement plugs need stereo sound sources, not mono sound sources. So anything you try here will give you a phased, mono sound. Trust me and do what I'm telling you. Try to pan your OH's the best you can on each track individually without making them centered. Then send all the outs of them to an instrument bus. If you want to...THEN you can add the stereo enhancement plug to the bus and you should be in good shape. But you MUST use pans and send all the OH's to the bus to be able to use the stereo plug effectively.
Good luck...I hope this helps. :)
-Danny
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Alex Red
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/28 08:58:52
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Hi Danny... Thanks for the help and suggestions... The 'stereoizer' ( not stereo enhancement ) I am using is an FX create right to split ( by psicho acustics ) a mono channel into stereo, so, the final output is 'really' stereo, if not the following 'stereo spacer' module would not be able to pan it around, and stereo spacer itself shows me by its output that the signal is panned left or right, as I move it... So, the clip appears to generate a stereo signal, but then, entering the track it apperas to be converted again as mono.... I am not going to tell why I need the overheads ( as other instruments alreay are ) 'spaced' this way, I know there are a lot of other ways to do the spacing for such sounds, but, I'd like to do this way if possible... The overheads are too flat and I want to add more depth, but are secondary in this orchestral arrangment, so, not worth a single volume/track for each of them, enough work with a leveling on the clips once for all, and then eventually level the whole overheads with a single track volume control... All intruments are wey well spaced into stereo image here, and have a nice depth, but then, the overheads are quite flat, and I am trying to add them depth... I already have 6 Buses on this session, 1 of which is the Drum bus with it's own setting, I should then create an Overhead bus with same settings and send it back into the Drum bus to have separate overheads and whole Drum set volume controls... if possible, this is a thing I do not want to do... So, what I want to do, is just a more simpe way of dealing on the mixer with all tracks... So, my real question is NOT HOW to do what I wan to, but, WHY DOES not work the way I am doing...
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CJaysMusic
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/28 09:20:56
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I have no real stereo.. You do not need stereo tracks to make a great stereo image. mono tracks are better in my opinion when making a good stereo image for a song or instrument group. Most songs are made up of 95% mono tracks. You are not at a disadvantage by having mono tracks. Matter of fact, you have an advantage for creating a realistic stereo field when using mono tracks over stereo tracks. CJ
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/28 09:30:56
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I don't think I've been able to get the full picture....but my gut feeling is you're going to face phase-problems on the way.
"So, my real question is NOT HOW to do what I wan to, but, WHY DOES not work the way I am doing..."
Anyways, it's propably said already, but in short: The track interleave and the track FX bin overrides whatever is in the clip FX. At least that's the way it's been, and I assume it's the same in X-versions still. I think it's quite logical. Mono track has mono output, nothing else. If you had a stereo track, your clips should be positioned on either left or right channel track, and then they could not be panned at all, put you would get a stereo effect, and you could use a stereo enhancer instead of stereoizer.
It should be possible to drag your mono OH clips to different sides of a stereo track, if that's what you wish.
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Tom Riggs
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/28 10:07:45
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Hopefully they told you the physical placement of each mic/clip. Follow the excellent advice you have been givin and place each mono clip in a separate tracks. Use the information about the mic placement to pan each correctly. Choose a logical grouping for you buses and rout each track to the appropriate bus. solo each bus and mix the tracks that go to it to taste. Then during the final mix you just mix the various buses. Kind of like making your own stems and mixing those. If you really must do it the way you are trying to then you should check to see if the track interleave is set to mono or stereo. It is possible to set the track interleave to stereo even if the source clips are mono. That may allow your clip fx to playback as you intend.
post edited by Tom Riggs - 2012/12/28 10:15:54
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Alex Red
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/28 15:51:53
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Hi Guys... After a lot of testing, found the solution, and may be, problem with X2... It appears that a mono clip is always forced to MONO if a Clip Pan Envelope is not present on it... Enough to enable the Pan envelope in the clip, and even let it at 0 position, and the FX is then able to pan the signal, in other words, I think that to save CPU, the Sonar Guys decided that if a Pan Envelope is not present in the clip, it has always to be regarded as mono, assuming nothing would ever pan it before the track input... Not sure how this is correct, as, checking on signal flow on documentation, it appears clear the Clip FX's are past the clip envelopes, so, this, would not justify the forcing mono of the clip output if an envelope is present or not before what is building a stereo image... For example, I could I place a Cross Delay FX panning left/right in a short clip to let a particular transient to happen only there in the whole track, and would not prefer to add such an effect never more used to be in the track effect bin... Well, I think this way... However, it seems I found the 'fix' to this... Thanks all for the support and suggestions... Alex
post edited by Alex Red - 2012/12/28 16:50:55
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/28 16:08:04
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I think your reasoning is erroneous
I have a stereo clip here with no Pan Envelope present but it behaves exactly like it should.
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Alex Red
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Re:X2 P, Mono clips force a track to be mono...? No stereo image from them...?
2012/12/28 16:49:48
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Hi Jonesey... Infact, if you read the thread we are speaking of Mono Clips, not stereo ones, stereo clips work fine... sorry if I was not so clear... Thanks for the interest Alex P.S. Modified last my post, to confirm I am speaking of mono clips...
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