Linear Phase

”xabiton”

I have been using Reaper for the past week or so for my audio editing and have not had any issues as far as workflow is concerned.

How in depth does your audio editing get though?  Have you ever made ambient?  Does Reaper allow you to layer and bounce like Sonar?

I’ve had a Reaper license for three years..  I know nothing about the program.  That is how bad I find its workflow and difficulty.

Sonar.. I’ve had it for 2 months..  I’ve got it down.  Pretty much licked the learning curve..  Now I just need to practice my music, which is a never ending journey of learning..  but the, “brand new daw learning curve.”  I feel like, “ok I licked it.  Its done.”  Sonar is easy, breezy..  Its well thought out.  Its.. a piece of cake to work with.

Sonar has it beat there but even then Sonar's strength is still in it being virtual tape machine

In all seriousness bro.. It’s a DAW.. It’s a digital audio environment.  It is supposed to record audio and play it back.  Its not a software to control the stock market, and design skyscrapers.

But Sonar is so much more than a virtual tape machine.  It mixes in surround sound.  It loads movies, so you can write scores.  Its an audio playground..  You can slice, dice, edit, re-sequence like you would not believe. I can only guess that, “you are not making highly intricate and layered ambient projects, or scoring film…  No worries, neither am I, but I still know what Sonar can do.. 

Just because you do not use a feature, does not mean it is not there.  Remember, we are all on our own music journey, and we all have different levels of practice and ability.

when I got to X1 ran into a ton of problems.

It could be anything.  It could be a botched install, it could be your computer, it could be Sonar.  Who knows?  I am having a few problems..  Rapture, some audio dropouts ( but not too bad. )

I am not denying problems exist, but I do not feel like I am having more problems than ever.  Although.. I used Tracktion 3..  do you remember that?  OMFG  that was problems..  Cakewalk’s forum would be a mess if everybody was having problems like that..  what I do notice is a few users with problems..  nothing like Ableton Live 8!!!!

Ableton Live 8.. Remember?  The Ableton forums were a mess.

I am only so vocal because I really do like what Cakewalk is trying to do here but again I go to a ton of developer forums and only this one and the Cubase forum are regularly filled with more problems with the software than anything else.

Well.. I’m banned from KVR, and it’s a good thing too.  Nothing but the most angry, spiteful, childish, negative loosers on planet earth.  They complain about everything.

I go to the Reason or Live forums

Live 8 has been fixed.  People are not complaining anymore, that is true.

I come off as a jerk or a haggler

You are as welcome as anybody else to express their opinion.  I am just arguing for the good, instead of the bad.  I’m choosing to support Cakewalk, because I think they are doing a good job.  If I was having problems, I might feel just like you.  So I don’t think you are a jerk… 

I have been making music on a computer since 2001 on pretty much any computer I can get my hands on no problems. I never experienced an audio drop out except in Sonar.

I started in 2005.. so you only have 4 years on me.  I started playing guitar about 15 years ago though.. So I have been a musician for a good long while now.

I have had dropouts in Live, Cubase, Traktion, Reaper and Sonar.  None of them are flawless.  You might be forgetting, or you just got lucky.

I feel Cakewalk gets it working for some people and then pass the bill. I call Customer Support and most of the time my problem is not resolved which again makes me think about switching DAWs.

I feel like, “several companies throughout the economy are just trying to survive and maybe even grow right now.”

These are strange times we are living in.

Sonar is the best DAW on paper but its hard to go onto any audio forum online and have a conversation about Sonar that does not go deep into all of the problems they have making it work right for them.

I see plenty of people mentioning problems with Sonar.  Rarely do I see anybody give a list of specific and descriptive problems, or any clues more than, “problems.”  I see people with problems..  It could be Sonar..  It could be they have no clue, wtf they are doing, or how to use, “pro-grade music production software.”

I don't see that with other DAWs they may say it crashes a ton (live) I hate that it lacks vst support (Reason) the workflow is videogame like (FL studio) or the workflow is just plain silly (Reaper) but never flat out it just doesn't work a good 2 out of 3 replies except with Sonar.  

“Sonar doesn’t work well?”  I hear you.  At this point I need a list, and screenshots, and specific things inside Sonar that you believe are broken.

Aside from the few bugs we all know about.. Rapture, midi-clips, audio dropouts..

I think I come off as a Sonar basher

Don’t worry..  If you are having specific problems, and you can not get the program to work, than you have a right to be upset.  I agree…  but its hard to decipher what is not working, when we are not in your music room together.

I think Sonar can be the best DAW in the world but these problems have to be addressed

A lot of it could be your computer, could it not?  I think you told me about your setup before..  What is your setup?  Type of computer, audio card, OS, etc, etc?

before worrying about things like extra Pro Channel modules, adding more plug ins to Sonar, and promotions. If the software doesn't work right the word will spread and all that other fantastic stuff won't matter at all because at the end of the day all people will say about it in conversation is that Sonar just doesn't work.  

Part of Cakewalk’s business plan, seems to be, “offer value added.”  Sonar is definitely working right over here..  I’m enjoying, using, and I am little concerned about audio dropouts, but it hasn’t prevented me from finishing a track.  If X2 is gapless..  Than I am going to be so impressed..

One last note I do agree that Sonar's biggest problem is the audio drop outs. It crashes sometimes for no reason at all sure but I don't think people expect a DAW to not crash

Dropouts again..  ok, we agree.  Crashes?  I’ve had crashes in every single daw I have ever used.  I have seen them all crash.. random, or on occasion, or from a vst plugin.

but they do expect rock solid audio quality which not only relates to how it sounds but how it works.

Right, and a lot of times they are using these profession quality daws with:
1.    No real audio engineering education, or idea wtf they are doing.
2.    No proper setup of their computer system.. firewalls, antivirus, startup folder, background services, cheap or poor audio card..
3.    Not to mention all the folk who have crack installed.   Or have the wrong ram, or a slow hard disk, or an older computer, or no sse2.. etc, etc.

I would also like to see Cakewalk follow suit with Pro Tools in terms of focusing on doing one thing really well with Sonar.

Avid is going bankrupt.  They are on their last leg..  All they have is pro-tools..  but that also means all their plugins. 

Roland is building all the Cakewalk branded hardware..  Cakewalk is focusing on Sonar.. Ok, Cakewalk has a few vst plugins, and pro-channel modules..  but most of the stuff in Sonar has been developed over a very long time, or it was acquired via purchase of the company, or stuff like that.

When it comes to the world of midi and running vsti I think Sonar has already lost that battle to tools like FL Studio, Live, Reason and Studio One.

I’ve got a Live License..  Maybe you have not seen me post on Ableton.com.. but really bro, Live hasn’t got midi like Cubase, Logic, Digital Performer or Sonar.
Midi is more than programming notes in, “Ableton’s dinky piano roll.”

FLstudio is a niche, and Reason used to be a niche but now its coming into a full fledged daw.  We have to wait and see what Reason develops into for its versions 7, 8, and 9.

Studio One… hmm.. I am predicting development on that daw to eventually stop, and for it to be taken off the market.  Let’s see if I am right.  I don’t think Presonus is having the success people think they are.

But where it can win is being a rock solid audio engineers tool. It already works really well for audio related tasks and it already has strengths there that anyway and from what i can tell most of the people who use it are guitar players anyway vs the guys who use vsts and are already using FL Studio or Logic. They lost that battle focus on a different market 

Look at the Cakewalk blog, look at the names and credits..  People are using Sonar! http://blog.cakewalk.com/category/artist-news/cakewalk-pro-user-spotlight/

I am not being down on you bro.  I am just offering a different, and positive argument.  I understand you are having problems…
I don’t know what else to tell you.  Keep on trucking, and enjoy making music..  No matter what software you use!

I don't understand quite how formatting on this forum works so I am going to make one big reply and I hope it makes sense. 

No I don't make ambient music. I only use Sonar for mixing the stuff that I make in Reason and Live because imo it lacks in the creative departments. Sure it does other things besides being a tape machine/console I never said it didn't but imo that is where its strength lies. Having a feature doesn't mean its implemented well. For example you said you don't find Reaper to be intuitive when it comes to work flow. Has every feature imagineable but if it doesn't work with you and how you work then it doesn't matter. I use a tool based on how well it works for me because I have the tools at my disposal to be picky. I can do everything in Sonar if I wanted to but that doesn't mean it would be a breeze just liek any other tool Sonar has things it does well and other things not so well. 

I am fairly new to Live and its forums I used a bad boy copy in college back in 2004 but hadn't messed with it much since I decided to go legit with all of my software in 2005. That said I didn't buy Live until this past June and I rarely go onto their forums. I have been off and on with this forum over the years too. I heard Live 8 was a mess though and now its not. I still get crashes here and there but most of that was due to me trying to open a plug in while the song was playing or a bad install of a plug in. X1 crashes are harder to trace for me. I have Home Studio 4 ran flawlessly a partof me is considering going back but I upgraded to have a more modern version and I feel that going back 7 years in time is counter productive due to Cakewalk not putting the time and effort into quality control like they used to do. These days I understand consumers feel the best DAW is the one with the most features but every DAW has every feature now so we need to get back to focusing on making sure it works as advertised. Many have seen that and are changing the way they do things from what I hear. 

As far as broken features go I posted a rewire video a while back because tech support did not believe me when I said that rewire was broken. Sometimes its subtle things like audio dropouts/pops/clicks just for opening a plug in. I can't get video on this stuff because opening a plug in kills my video feed. I have tried to document it many times. Rewire was the first problem I had and it was a big problem because 64 bit rewire was a major reason why I upgraded from home studio to begin with. And the feature is broken and has been apparently for years now. Sometimes I get blue screens for just opening Sonar. like seriously doing nothing else nothing running in the background ect and i open Sonar BSOD. I can't pin point why. Those few issues I named there are huge for me and I am sure others too. The solution people keep telling me is I have a crap computer. I have a corei7 2nd gen laptop with 8 gigs of ram. I have been told to get rid of my $500 audio interface that works right with every other program I run to run Sonar Studio which cost me like $80 to upgrade. Why would I do that? Those are again just a few examples. Everything I complain about does not happen with other das I use. 

As far as every DAW crashing I will agree with that for the most part. Again I am spoiled by Reason. I have spent more time with Reason than anything else and Reason rarely crashes. I have been a Reason owner since 2002 and I can count on my hands how many times Reason has crashed in 10 years. Its hard to say that about anything else. But that has more to do with how Reason has always been setup. I hear fl studio does not crash much either. 

As far as Avid going bankrupt I have seen no evidence of this other than the fact that they sold their consumer lines it could be for a number of reasons though. Its hard to say they are going bankrupt because they sold M-Audio. There could be a lot of reasons why they sold it. Doesn't take away from the fact that Pro Tools is a very one directional DAW that does one or two things really well as opposed to trying to be everything to everyone. I have a similar problem with FL studio. I never liked FL. Wanted to love it because those lifetime free upgrades look freaking sweet I just cannot get into it. 


As far as midi stuff I just do not find Sonar's midi stuff to be all that great for me. While fully featured and the smart editing tools are great when working with audio for midi imo Sonar leaves a bit to be desired. Live as far as a composing tool with the right instruments for it gives me everything I want and need in a DAW when it comes to midi work so maybe that is why I am so hard on Sonar because I freaking love Live and Reason. I truly do feel that Sonar kicks both of their asses when it comes to audio engineering though. When working with audio stems its hard to find anything better than Sonar. I wish Cakewalk would niche that and become the best in the world at that and make something that is rock solid for most people rather than just many. I think the Pro Channel is arguably the best mixer out there. They took what was done with the sSL in Record and took something that was a simple idea and made it into something elegant and amazing. I always felt that the idea was stolen from Props seeing as how nobody was doing console emulations in their DAW until Record and then a year later Sonar comes out with one and its just happens to be freaking awesome. There are lots of things I love about Sonar and many I hate too. I hate that some of those problems have apprently been around for years while Cakewalk ignores them. After some consideration I am going to demo X2 Producer before deciding if I should buy a Reaper license but if X2 is not amazingly well done quality wise (quality of the software) then I will not be upgrading. That is just me. 


One last note How In The Blue Hell did you get banned from KVR? I didn't think they banned anyone. 

While I agree Cakewalk needs to make money, I have often wondered why the late-comers get the benefit of such offers. Seems reverse sales-logic. Why not have an "Early-Adopter's Special" or something to encourage users to upgrade sooner than later...?

One real benefit early adopters get is the use of it before those that wait. Think about the ones just now buying X1. Almost as soon as they get it installed a new version will be upon them. 

We have nearly 2 years of working with X1 and learning it thoroughly while those starting now will be a good year behind and will need to redo many of their old projects to use the new features. We have already done that. 

Besides someone has to answer the questions that will invariably come our way.

We lose nothing by getting it early nor is the price so prohibitive that it is beyond one's means.

CW owes me nothing. I have enjoyed using X1 and have been more productive with it.  I fully expect to say the same thing about the new X2. 

But as always we will have to wait and see.