wmb
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X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X2&Lang=EN&Req=Arranging.22.html This page is describing things that don't happen for me. Specifically I am trying to create a group selected parts from 10 tracks of simultaneously recorded drums. The session has a few punch-ins and also some fills I will be grabbing from other takes and I would like to be able to group them for editing purposes. I didn't realize there is a setting for the project that will automatically group clips recorded at the same time. That horse has left the barn so now that I'm putting tracks together I'm trying to use group function after the fact and it's not working. When it says do this... To create a clip group 1. Select all the clips you want to group together. 2. Do one of the following:  Press [ (square bracket). Right-click any selected clip, point to Add to Clip Group and choose New from the pop-up menu. A new clip group is created and the group number is displayed next to each clip name. I don't get the option to Add to Clip Group or New in the menu I see. What I do see is Create Selection Group from Selected Clips. If I select that option it will group everything in all the tracks containing a clip I selected which defeats the purpose of my goals to edit the clips into the other performances to replace parts. Maybe I'm trying to do something that I have misunderstood but I don't think so. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? I've tried this before and never succeeded but a recent post on another specific subject led me to think I have the right idea and wrong technique. Thanks, Wm.
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robert_e_bone
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/02 22:57:58
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Razorwit
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/03 01:24:51
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Hi wmb,
I'm not certain I understand what you're trying to do here, but in general it really is just:
1. select the clips you want to group
2. right click and select "create selction group from selected clips"
3. Done. Any edits you make to one clip will affect all the others in the group. Remember you do need to select (highlight) one of the clips first like I was saying in that other post.
I may be missing what you're trying to do here, but if you can try to explain again I'll try and help.
Dean
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chuckebaby
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/03 02:19:09
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grouping works well for drums, audio drums more or less, midi too.
because midi drums are usually all on the same track.
audio drums however are split up on 7-10 different tracks, so by grouping them together you can move all the clips together, instead of moving kick, then the snare, then the hi hats,exc, exc.
if you have a midi bass clip you want to link to the group that can be done as well.
(you probably know this)
so you've created your group, am I right ?
just hold down the CNTRL key and when the pop window comes up add it to the new group.
make sure your not adding it to two different groups at the same time, you cant do that, its impossible, it cant move in 2 different directions at once
now maybe im missing something here but that the way I use them myself.
I hope this helped.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/03 02:20:39
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If I'm understanding your post correctly I think you need to create several clip groups.
Assuming you have several takes of drums on several tracks - kick, snare, hats, OHs etc....... then you need to select all "take one" clips in all tracks then clip group those - Group 1. Then select all take two two clips in all tracks and create another group - Group 2. etc. etc.
Using the lane selection widget makes that relatively easy.
Once you've done that editing any clip in "group one" will affect all of the "Take one" clips in all drum tracks.
If I've mis-understood please feel free to ignore me.
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wmb
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/03 02:56:37
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There might be a few things to clear up regarding my workflow. There might be more efficient ways but this is how I work. I do take 1, 2, 3, ect sequentially so if the song is 96 bars long with a 2 bar count-in then take 1, beat 1 would be on beat 1 of measure 3. Take 2 would begin the count-in at measure 101 and the downbeat of take 2 would be beat 1, measure 103. I don't stack my takes. If there are guide tracks or markers/tempo changes I just copy all that stuff and paste it further down the timeline. I really only do this for getting the basic tracks for a song. Once I have the drum take all the overdubs happen within that best drum edit. Sorry for the long description.
Now that I have several takes of the song and we have decided on the main version we will work with we might do a few passes and certain transitions, fills and any other feature parts. Those would be even further down the timeline. Once we have selected all of our replacement parts I generally select the part that I want with the grid turned on and then copy the exact part I want. I will then go to the place in the main performance and replace it by pasting the new part in and replacing the old one.
It's at this point that the grouping would come in very handy. As you all know, the crossfade on an edit can really make or break a seamless edit. In the past I have manually selected all the clips in the section I want to work with the lasso tool and go about making my moves. Sometimes the best edits require finessing the edit tool that moves the end of the first clip and the beginning of the second clip simultaneously managing the crossfade. I have found that these edits do not necessarily work across the selection group the way it does with the two clips in question, (Damn, this is hard to describe). Because of this I have to go through and slip-edit each track to get a clean edit. If I could make a group for the preceding section and a group for the replacement section then I could accomplish this in one move instead of 10.
What ends up happening when I try to make a clip group with a section I have cut the beginning and end of, it will make a clip group of EVERY clip in the track and not just the clips I am trying to turn into their only little unit. The result is that I cannot do any sort of editing because it just does completely useless things when I try to edit a crossfade or anything.
My conclusion is that it doesn't work at all (which I have decided is incorrect), I'm totally misunderstanding what I think it should do and it's working perfectly, or that... I don't know what it is supposed to do and I am misusing the feature. I should probably make a video or something because it is really hard to describe something that doesn't work as I expect it to work.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/03 04:11:14
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wmb
There might be a few things to clear up regarding my workflow. There might be more efficient ways but this is how I work. I do take 1, 2, 3, ect sequentially so if the song is 96 bars long with a 2 bar count-in then take 1, beat 1 would be on beat 1 of measure 3. Take 2 would begin the count-in at measure 101 and the downbeat of take 2 would be beat 1, measure 103. I don't stack my takes. If there are guide tracks or markers/tempo changes I just copy all that stuff and paste it further down the timeline. I really only do this for getting the basic tracks for a song. Once I have the drum take all the overdubs happen within that best drum edit. Sorry for the long description.
This won't be helping at all. Much easier to use "Sound on sound" and "create Layers on overlap" in your recording preferences. That way lanes willbe created and each track has the same material at the same position. It's making my headache imagining to try and comp a take from several passes recorded that way.  Now that I have several takes of the song and we have decided on the main version we will work with we might do a few passes and certain transitions, fills and any other feature parts. Those would be even further down the timeline. Once we have selected all of our replacement parts I generally select the part that I want with the grid turned on and then copy the exact part I want. I will then go to the place in the main performance and replace it by pasting the new part in and replacing the old one.
It's at this point that the grouping would come in very handy. As you all know, the crossfade on an edit can really make or break a seamless edit. In the past I have manually selected all the clips in the section I want to work with the lasso tool and go about making my moves. Sometimes the best edits require finessing the edit tool that moves the end of the first clip and the beginning of the second clip simultaneously managing the crossfade. I have found that these edits do not necessarily work across the selection group the way it does with the two clips in question, (Damn, this is hard to describe). Because of this I have to go through and slip-edit each track to get a clean edit. If I could make a group for the preceding section and a group for the replacement section then I could accomplish this in one move instead of 10.
What ends up happening when I try to make a clip group with a section I have cut the beginning and end of, it will make a clip group of EVERY clip in the track and not just the clips I am trying to turn into their only little unit. The result is that I cannot do any sort of editing because it just does completely useless things when I try to edit a crossfade or anything.
My conclusion is that it doesn't work at all (which I have decided is incorrect), I'm totally misunderstanding what I think it should do and it's working perfectly, or that... I don't know what it is supposed to do and I am misusing the feature. I should probably make a video or something because it is really hard to describe something that doesn't work as I expect it to work.
The best advice I can give is to re-think your workflow. I realise it's each to their own way of working but as far as I can tell you are making life incredibly hard for yourself. I'd even go as far as to re-organise this project completely if it's already recorded. It'll be quicker than trying to sort it out in its existing format. Take a look at some of the videos on Cake TV regarding layers and comping. There are also some on comping on my youtube page (link in sig). I can't even begin to advise on how to help with multiple takes spread over the timeline like that as it's completely alien to my workflow. My advice is as above regarding a workflow re-think. Sorry.
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wmb
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/03 16:30:19
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It's not nearly as horrible as you might think. Tape works this way and with a fully accessible DAW timeline it's not that big of a deal to move things around. It only takes a few seconds to setup each take with a big copy/paste move. Keep in mind that this is only for tracking basic drum tracks. If I can get grouping to work then an alternative workflow might be much more attractive. Presently grouping makes zero sense to me so I am trying to understand it. I like the idea of stacking up performances and sorting that way but with 8 or more microphones it certainly seems like the potential for horrible confusion is extremely high when trying to get the right takes sorted out.
I'm sure I can find this answer myself but how does the previous take get muted for the following passes? What action do I have to take so that when I start recording over the same bars that the previous performance will not start playing back while the take is going on. In previous versions I would have to select all the tracks I would be recording over and mute them. Once I get three takes stacked up it sounds very daunting and clicky to select which of 10 of 30 tracks will play back.
Like I said, maybe I just don't understand. I'm super fast in my current workflow but if the above answers are easy enough then I'll be even faster.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/04 02:01:14
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wmb
It's not nearly as horrible as you might think. Tape works this way and with a fully accessible DAW timeline it's not that big of a deal to move things around. It only takes a few seconds to setup each take with a big copy/paste move. Keep in mind that this is only for tracking basic drum tracks. If I can get grouping to work then an alternative workflow might be much more attractive. Presently grouping makes zero sense to me so I am trying to understand it. I like the idea of stacking up performances and sorting that way but with 8 or more microphones it certainly seems like the potential for horrible confusion is extremely high when trying to get the right takes sorted out.
If you are using X2 this is where take lanes have a made a big improvement over layers. (IMHO) The old layers were much harder to keep track of multiple takes over several tracks, lanes can now be named easily and have a default number assigned to them as well. If you use the "Group clips across tracks" option the clip groups are automatically created. Select take one in the kick track will select take one across all the other drum tracks.
I'm sure I can find this answer myself but how does the previous take get muted for the following passes? What action do I have to take so that when I start recording over the same bars that the previous performance will not start playing back while the take is going on. In previous versions I would have to select all the tracks I would be recording over and mute them. Once I get three takes stacked up it sounds very daunting and clicky to select which of 10 of 30 tracks will play back.
Muting is still the answer there but there's no need to mute individual layers just the track. Quick grouping works well there. Just select all tracks, hold the ctrl key and mute one of them. They will all mute. With clip grouping it's also possible to select one of the clips and press K which will mute all the clips in the group. Like I said, maybe I just don't understand. I'm super fast in my current workflow but if the above answers are easy enough then I'll be even faster.
I record live drums usually over 8 or 9 tracks and clip grouping works really well although more for editing than actually helping at the recording stage. I get what you are saying about tape but why restrict yourself in that way while the power of the DAW is at your finger tips. How do you compare takes like that? As in the video on my youtube page I just loop over the section I want to hear and use the solo buttons or mute tool to mute and unmute each take as it loops, making relevant notes in the lane note field and then isolate the take I want, move loop repeat. I can't imagine jumping back and forwards over the time line to preview them. What happens when you have a few takes? Your projects must be really long, not to mention hard to navigate. As I said each to their own but IMHO there is definitely easier ways of working.
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wmb
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/08 02:57:01
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FastBikerBoy
wmb
It's not nearly as horrible as you might think. Tape works this way and with a fully accessible DAW timeline it's not that big of a deal to move things around. It only takes a few seconds to setup each take with a big copy/paste move. Keep in mind that this is only for tracking basic drum tracks. If I can get grouping to work then an alternative workflow might be much more attractive. Presently grouping makes zero sense to me so I am trying to understand it. I like the idea of stacking up performances and sorting that way but with 8 or more microphones it certainly seems like the potential for horrible confusion is extremely high when trying to get the right takes sorted out.
If you are using X2 this is where take lanes have a made a big improvement over layers. (IMHO) The old layers were much harder to keep track of multiple takes over several tracks, lanes can now be named easily and have a default number assigned to them as well. If you use the "Group clips across tracks" option the clip groups are automatically created. Select take one in the kick track will select take one across all the other drum tracks.
I'm sure I can find this answer myself but how does the previous take get muted for the following passes? What action do I have to take so that when I start recording over the same bars that the previous performance will not start playing back while the take is going on. In previous versions I would have to select all the tracks I would be recording over and mute them. Once I get three takes stacked up it sounds very daunting and clicky to select which of 10 of 30 tracks will play back.
Muting is still the answer there but there's no need to mute individual layers just the track. Quick grouping works well there. Just select all tracks, hold the ctrl key and mute one of them. They will all mute. With clip grouping it's also possible to select one of the clips and press K which will mute all the clips in the group.
Like I said, maybe I just don't understand. I'm super fast in my current workflow but if the above answers are easy enough then I'll be even faster.
I record live drums usually over 8 or 9 tracks and clip grouping works really well although more for editing than actually helping at the recording stage. I get what you are saying about tape but why restrict yourself in that way while the power of the DAW is at your finger tips. How do you compare takes like that?
As in the video on my youtube page I just loop over the section I want to hear and use the solo buttons or mute tool to mute and unmute each take as it loops, making relevant notes in the lane note field and then isolate the take I want, move loop repeat. I can't imagine jumping back and forwards over the time line to preview them. What happens when you have a few takes? Your projects must be really long, not to mention hard to navigate. As I said each to their own but IMHO there is definitely easier ways of working.
I've done a ton of work since this thread was started and I've implemented many of the suggestions about grouping and layers. Track lanes are great. There's some wonky stuff with some takes creating two of the same lane (with one always empty and deleting it will make the correct one go away too). I've also had some issues with several takes all getting placed into the same lane and then having a devil of a time moving the tracks to another empty lane. I'm pretty sure I will never track drums or any multi mic instrument the same way again.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/08 03:38:11
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Are you using X2a? THere was a bug that produced empty lanes in X2 but the update fixed that AFAIK. I don't get them here any more anyway.
Make sure that "Creat New Lanes on Overlap" is checked as well. You'll find that in Preferences---->Project-------->Record.
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wmb
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Re:X2a and Clip Groups - Maybe I don't get it.
2013/04/09 04:09:33
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FastBikerBoy
Are you using X2a? THere was a bug that produced empty lanes in X2 but the update fixed that AFAIK. I don't get them here any more anyway.
Make sure that "Creat New Lanes on Overlap" is checked as well. You'll find that in Preferences---->Project-------->Record.
I'm about 99% sure I'm on X2a but my build schedule on this machine was wrought with problems due to a defective UAD2 card. I'll check out the version I'm on when I get back to the studio in the morning. Unless I accidentally put a check in the "create new lanes on overlap" then I'm sure it is not selected. So far I've seen about three weird things. One was seeing two of the same lane but the second lane is empty and deleting it also deletes the one with the clips. I've had two clips get recorded into the same lane and both cannot be moved without tons of futzing around and attempts often create sort of weird graphic anomalies in the track with lanes that go away as soon as I release the clip I'm trying to move. The third is that the slip edit tool or whatever it's called (allows the cursor to edit the beginning and end of clips that are next to each other) not showing up when the cursor is between two clips and I want to create crossfade between to clips. I don't think I've ever been completely stuck but I've had a couple moments where I was starting to sweat in front of a client when I couldn't get two clips from being stuck on top of each other til I closed X2 and re-opened the project again. Those moments are a bit hairy where you're going through every conceivable way to get a clip under your control so you can get on with comping a vocal. I look forward to when these things are ironed out a bit more.
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