Helpful ReplyZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution

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krizrox
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2012/02/10 16:53:59 (permalink)

ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution

I think I know the answer to this question but I wanted to check with the experts to see if there were any good answers. Guess I'm not very bright when it comes to distributing large files across the internet. ZIP doesn't seem to really compress the size of a WAV file at all. I think I knew this from a long time ago. But I thought I'd try again and sure enough - it didn't seem to do much of anything. But I'm using the stock ZIP routine in Windoze XP so maybe there is a better version of it out there? RAR? Or what is another alternative that doesn't require a degree in brain surgery and is easy for noobs to understand? thanks!

Larry Kriz
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mister happy
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/10 16:58:18 (permalink)
You might try FLAC.

You'll need to establish a workflow, you can find lots of info here:

http://flac.sourceforge.net/
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krizrox
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/10 17:07:19 (permalink)
thx Mike - is FLAC a compression solution for file size/transmission or something similar to MP3? I'm a little confused about what FLAC is. If I encode with FLAC can I convert the file back to WAV with no loss?

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bitflipper
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/10 17:29:16 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Fog 2017/09/12 14:33:13
Yes, FLAC is lossless. It's designed specifically for audio, so it can actually get a better compression ratio than Zip/Rar (which do best with repeating patterns; audio only repeats data during silence). But FLAC will still only get you about a 50% reduction. It's built in to SONAR, so there's the convenience factor.

EDIT:

I just did a comparison...

Original wave (32-bit 44.1KHz): 78.7MB
Zipped: 72.8MB
As 24-bit wave: 59MB
Zipped 24-bit wave: 56.2MB 
FLAC: 54.5MB
320kb/s MP3: 8.9MB


In this test, at least, FLAC didn't get anywhere near 50% reduction.
post edited by bitflipper - 2012/02/10 17:48:17


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mister happy
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/10 17:39:44 (permalink)
Hi Kriz,

Good to see you.

Bitflipper pretty much said it all.

+1

:-)

best regards,
mike
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/10 17:55:24 (permalink)
krizrox


I think I know the answer to this question but I wanted to check with the experts to see if there were any good answers. Guess I'm not very bright when it comes to distributing large files across the internet. ZIP doesn't seem to really compress the size of a WAV file at all. I think I knew this from a long time ago. But I thought I'd try again and sure enough - it didn't seem to do much of anything. But I'm using the stock ZIP routine in Windoze XP so maybe there is a better version of it out there? RAR? Or what is another alternative that doesn't require a degree in brain surgery and is easy for noobs to understand? thanks!


No lossless compression algorithm is going to do much to compress music data ... it's just too non-repeating.  Compression like zip relies on repeated patterns in the data.  When it finds them, it substitutes an "abbreviation".  The more data and the more there are repeating patterns, the more you can squeeze the size down.  Large text data files can often be compressed to 15% or their original size.  But sample data like that in a wav file is just too random, so the repeating patterns (except for maybe long periods of silence) are encountered much more infrequently ... thus only slight file size reduction results.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/10 18:49:03 (permalink)
krizrox


I think I know the answer to this question but I wanted to check with the experts to see if there were any good answers. Guess I'm not very bright when it comes to distributing large files across the internet. ZIP doesn't seem to really compress the size of a WAV file at all. I think I knew this from a long time ago. But I thought I'd try again and sure enough - it didn't seem to do much of anything. But I'm using the stock ZIP routine in Windoze XP so maybe there is a better version of it out there? RAR? Or what is another alternative that doesn't require a degree in brain surgery and is easy for noobs to understand? thanks!

Actually Larry, WinZip IS the correct answer believe it or not. The problem is, the version you may be running. Thanks to Bapu, when I joined the Coffee House Band, it was mandatory that I had at least Winzip 14 at the time. The reason being, it supports zipx compression which is truly off the hook for wave files. It doesn't hold any of the blank space in a wave as counting for the actual size. It just compresses the audio part and man let me tell you, it's absolute insanity as to how it does it.
 
I can turn a 54mb wave into a 27mb wave. The bigger the file, the more it makes a difference.
 
The next solution you may want to consider, is exporting your wave data out as a broadcast wave and then zipping it up using Winzip zipx. The broadcast wave will get rid of any dead space in the beginning of the file and will just import it straight into your client other party's DAW at the exact time it's supposed to be. The only issue you may have is if this is pro tools. My pro tools system totally jacks up broadcast waves. When I create one and then bring it into Sonar, it's usually oh....an hour off. Literally! It will place the wave file an hour away in the time marker in the song. It happens everytime.
 
But when I export a BW from Sonar, it has lined itself up perfectly in other people's versions of Sonar, Adobe Audition 2 and 3, Cubase, Nuendo, Reaper and Audacity. So it's worth a try as it will just give them the wave in the right spot minus the extra space in the wave file.
 
But seriously, try the newest version of WinZip that supports zipx...it's amazing for everything, especially wave files and audio of any kind. Best of luck.
 
-Danny
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Danny Danzi
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/10 18:52:46 (permalink)
P.S. if you DO get the newer WinZip and use zipx, you must make sure the other party you're sending to is also using it or they will not be able to unzip the file. So make sure you clear the runway with the other party first before compressing with zipx format. You do have the legacy option available, but that's the one you're using now...and as you can see, it doesn't really make much difference at all. You're lucky if regular .zip compression saves you 5-10mb. This other thing will definitely make a huge difference in everything. I promise you. :)

-Danny
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Kev999
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/10 20:13:40 (permalink)
krizrox

ZIP doesn't seem to really compress the size of a WAV file at all...what is another alternative...
APE format is very efficient for storing 24-bit audio.  Unfortunately most audio software does not include APE as an option for importing or exporting, so you need a separate converter.  I use EaseAudio for converting between WAV and APE.

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Guitarhacker
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/10 21:56:39 (permalink)
for most collabs... I send MP3's until we get it right and are happy, then I simply load the full wave to a free server site. To me, it's not a big deal since I don't do that very often.

If I was running a studio and dealing with clients, I would probably use a zipper.  

I have Camzip and it does a good job but I've never zipped or unzipped waves with it. 

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mister happy
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/10 23:06:36 (permalink)
I just used FLAC to convert a 32.8MB .wav file to a 19.1MB flac file.


best regards,
mike

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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/16 18:19:02 (permalink)
I've used Win RAR for a few years now. Haven't tried some of the others, but it's better than WinZip. I just compressed a 43meg file down to 23megs the other day with it. Check your compression settings before you use any file compression tool. The default setting probably won't give you the best results.
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Brando
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/16 18:49:54 (permalink)
Bonzos Ghost


I've used Win RAR for a few years now. Haven't tried some of the others, but it's better than WinZip. I just compressed a 43meg file down to 23megs the other day with it. Check your compression settings before you use any file compression tool. The default setting probably won't give you the best results.

+1 
A lot of low and mid tier sample library producers use WinRAR for their WAV files and often will zip a file that has already been RAR'd for maximum compression. Nice thing is freebies like 7-Zip will unzip both Winrar'd and zipped formats.

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krizrox
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/17 12:19:08 (permalink)
thx guys - I'll look at FLAC and WinRAR again. The solution might be in there somewhere. I am basically interested in the easiest solution on the receiving end. I tend to deal with clients fairly often who aren't very tech savvy (meaning not at all) so whatever solution I choose should be the easiest for the receiver to understand and implement. To date, this hasn't been a huge issue but it comes up often enough that it's worth asking about. What I'm mostly interested in are final stereo mixes (an album's worth of WAV files is still pretty hefty). Clients often want the WAV files so they can make their own CD dups. Usually I just give them a disc at the end of the session but sometimes they are no longer in town so that's why I ask. I had a guy who had moved to the Dominican Republic just recently and that posed a little problem because of his internet access. Some of these remote places use wireless internet with some kind of cell phone SIM card. They are slow, intermittent and expensive. I'm not necessarily interested in electronic distribution of entire multi-track projects although that has come up in the past too. We usually just snail mail DVD-R discs back and forth. It hasn't been much of a problem since the schedules permit it and there's no compression issues to deal with.

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krizrox
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/17 12:22:19 (permalink)
btw - are you guys keeping tabs on the downfall of CD-R and DVD-R technology. Seems like the writing is on the wall for all that. What's on the horizon for media? Nothing at all? USB drives? Download cards?

Larry Kriz
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/17 14:15:40 (permalink)
I keep hearing about the impending death of CDs and DVDs, but if that really happens it will be the first time in history that a technology has been abandoned despite having no superior replacement.



All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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krizrox
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/18 10:44:47 (permalink)
CD's have been dying a steady death for a while now. But I would have thought the promise of Blu-Ray would have kept media alive considering the HD TV thing. With all the rental places going belly up, and Netflix not really wanting to ship DVD's anymore, and the cost of postage going up, the internet seems like the perfect solution to everything. Interesting times we live in if you're an artist. This new digital frontier.

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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2012/02/18 11:25:17 (permalink)
Broadband communications and high capacity memory is negating the need for sending content via hard media like CDs or DVDs.  Look at iTunes/iCloud where I buy some music and it automatically downloads to all my devices.

Interesting comment from T-Bone Burnett in this interview in American Songwriter: http://www.americansongwr...rnett-the-taste-maker/

(I don't want to infringe on their copyrights by copying the article here, so read under the question "Does roots music speak to a longing for something more authentic?")

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manlypullock
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2016/06/17 03:30:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2016/06/17 10:12:50
Kev999
krizrox

ZIP doesn't seem to really compress the size of a WAV file at all...what is another alternative...
is very efficient for storing 24-bit audio.  Unfortunately most audio software does not include APE as an option for importing or exporting, so you need a separate converter.  I use for converting between WAV and APE.



How much compression you achieve will depend not only the on the archive type you create, but on the application you use to compress it and the settings you use.  If you want to compress something to use as little space as possible, you should definitely use 7z. You can even crank up the compression settings to save even more space, although it will take longer to compress and decompress. Most compression tools have settings to allow you to achieve a higher compression rate at a compromise of slower compression/decompression times and more RAM usage. More about....7zip
 

 
Manly
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Jeff Evans
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2016/06/17 03:51:27 (permalink)
When you add files to the Zip archive (eg Zip It Free) choose Store as the method. Then it won't compress the file at all.  It will be its full size after being zipped and sound the best.  That is what I use to send a high quality file to someone.  For a compressed version then other compression approaches can be used.
 
 

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pwalpwal
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2016/06/17 04:10:21 (permalink)
+1 for 7-zip http://www.7-zip.org/

just a sec

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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2016/06/17 09:17:02 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
When you add files to the Zip archive (eg Zip It Free) choose Store as the method. Then it won't compress the file at all.  It will be its full size after being zipped and sound the best.  That is what I use to send a high quality file to someone.  For a compressed version then other compression approaches can be used.



I think you're mixing up your compression schemes here a bit, Jeff. 
 
If you're talking AUDIO compression (ie: MP3, etc.) then absolutely - uncompressed is the best and retains the original audio information.
 
With an archiving program, like ones that do ZIP compression, that's DATA compression. Basically, if that can't spit out an exact 1:1 image of what you put into it, regardless of its compression factor, it's failed. Imagine if you put in a program file, or even a WAV file with embedded header info and it came out different in the end; it'd be a disaster. It really makes no difference at all what compression level you use for the data in the end (and by what people have said, standard ZIP doesn't make much of a difference, regardless).
 
Cheers for the heads up, re: ZIPX guys. I've been a RAR user for years now and haven't used WinZip since... well, a damn long time ago now, so I entirely missed this new format. Definitely gonna look into it!
 
 

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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2016/06/17 14:01:43 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
krizrox


I think I know the answer to this question but I wanted to check with the experts to see if there were any good answers. Guess I'm not very bright when it comes to distributing large files across the internet. ZIP doesn't seem to really compress the size of a WAV file at all. I think I knew this from a long time ago. But I thought I'd try again and sure enough - it didn't seem to do much of anything. But I'm using the stock ZIP routine in Windoze XP so maybe there is a better version of it out there? RAR? Or what is another alternative that doesn't require a degree in brain surgery and is easy for noobs to understand? thanks!

Actually Larry, WinZip IS the correct answer believe it or not. The problem is, the version you may be running. Thanks to Bapu, when I joined the Coffee House Band, it was mandatory that I had at least Winzip 14 at the time. The reason being, it supports zipx compression which is truly off the hook for wave files. It doesn't hold any of the blank space in a wave as counting for the actual size. It just compresses the audio part and man let me tell you, it's absolute insanity as to how it does it.
 
I can turn a 54mb wave into a 27mb wave. The bigger the file, the more it makes a difference.
 
The next solution you may want to consider, is exporting your wave data out as a broadcast wave and then zipping it up using Winzip zipx. The broadcast wave will get rid of any dead space in the beginning of the file and will just import it straight into your client other party's DAW at the exact time it's supposed to be. The only issue you may have is if this is pro tools. My pro tools system totally jacks up broadcast waves. When I create one and then bring it into Sonar, it's usually oh....an hour off. Literally! It will place the wave file an hour away in the time marker in the song. It happens everytime.
 
But when I export a BW from Sonar, it has lined itself up perfectly in other people's versions of Sonar, Adobe Audition 2 and 3, Cubase, Nuendo, Reaper and Audacity. So it's worth a try as it will just give them the wave in the right spot minus the extra space in the wave file.
 
But seriously, try the newest version of WinZip that supports zipx...it's amazing for everything, especially wave files and audio of any kind. Best of luck.
 
-Danny

Didn't know this. So, here's a copy of Bit's test, using the high res WAV file of Fizzy Pickle's "Hungry Like The Wolf" (yes, I was kindly provided a WAV; thanks again!):
 
Original file: 65,095,696 bytes
 
.ZIP file: 63,003,125 bytes
 
.ZIPX file: 48,987,700 bytes
 
I am IMPRESSED! Thanks for the detailed heads-up!

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#23
robert_e_bone
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Re:ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2016/06/27 21:34:12 (permalink)
Truth disclaimer - none follows:
 
I compressed an entire boxed set of Kanye Pest's music, and it compressed the whole thing into one single giant BITE. :)
 
OK - truth disclaimer disclaimer - truth potential restored from this point forward (potentially for this thread only)
 
I couldn't resist the above - sorry.
 
I end up using Dropbox or a hosted web site I have to share project folders and such with folks when we are collaborating on stuff from different parts of the world.  Mostly, we transfer things on the way out the door to run errands, or when just about to go to sleep, etc.
 
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#24
antoniosarco
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Re: ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2016/10/27 02:06:30 (permalink)
Generic compression formats, like 7z, rar, and zip, contains file of any kind, so they must rely on lossless compression to guarantee any input bit is extracted exactly the same with no loss of information. Lossless compression uses statistical models to map the input to a smaller output eliminating redundancy in the data.In this way the output carry exactly all the information featured by the input in less bytes, and can be expanded when needed to a 1:1 copy of the original data, which is a fundamental property for storing some types of data – i.e. a software, a database. For this reason lossless compression algorithms are used for archive file formats used in general purpose archive manager utilities, like , RAR, and ZIP, where an exact and reversible image of the original data must be saved.
 

 
Antonio
#25
gswitz
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Re: ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2016/10/27 08:17:15 (permalink)
I use 7zip. I divide large files automatically in 7zip. This does confuse newbies once but it works for me. I move files using azure cloud blob storage. I protect with 7zip passwords.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#26
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2016/11/10 14:40:09 (permalink)
I'm with Bob Bone on this one - I upload anything that can't be sent via email to Dropbox.

Platinum  [2017.01] 64 bit
Custom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD, 3Tb External HDD's, Win 7 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A, Mackie 1642VLZ, Pod Pro XT, Behringer Bass V-Amp, AT4033, Sm58's, Sm57's, SE R1 Ribbons, 
BFD3, EWQLSO Platinum Plus, T-Racks Singles, Various guitars/phones/keyboards

#27
soens
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Re: ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2016/11/18 04:56:04 (permalink)
.
#28
nickwelhar
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Re: ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2017/09/12 09:43:17 (permalink)
Generally speaking most modern compression algorithms give roughly the same compression, and with regard to the number of cores that you can use at once, it is up to you to decide how many you want to use. "zip" in this context is a file format that permits several different compression methods. They include deflate, deflate64, bzip2, lzma, wavpack, and ppmd. In practice however, you will almost always see deflate used exclusively in zip files, for compatibility. DEFLATE is used to compress GZIP files. This algorithm is implemented efficiently in . We can turn the "fast bytes" and "number passes" knobs to optimize the algorithm. This influences DEFLATE compression in 7-Zip.
#29
batsbrew
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Re: ZIPPING or compressing WAV files for distribution 2017/09/12 22:03:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bristol_Jonesey 2017/09/15 07:55:21


"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
https://soundcloud.com/bats-brew
--
Sonar 6 PE>Win XP>RME Babyface Pro>Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GH>GeForce 8400>2GB DDR2 SDRAM
 
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