are you a software thief ?

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CoteRotie
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/06 23:09:39 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: HansDampf


[Well, there is a fine difference and it is about getting old to mention it
It is just this: If you steal my car, I don`t have it anymore. If you illegally download a song, it is not taken away from someone. So there is no physical loss, but the financial reward for the creative work and marketing is denied. And that is illegal and unethical, but in fact not in the same way as stealing a physical product.


Hey, Hans,

Interesting point. It's correct that there's no physical loss, but there is a loss of income to the people who are trying to earn an income as programmers and developers. (Your point.) I'm not sure there's really much of a difference there- One way you have to spend money to replace the item lost, the other you have to replace the income lost from not making a sale. You could argue that you might not have made the sale to someone who's using the "cracked" version, but if you can't afford or wouldn't buy the product for its retail price you don't get the right to steal it. If it's worth the price to you, buy it. If not, and you obtain it without paying for it it's the same thing as stealing. In Asia, where stealing software is rampant, they can develop products for lower overhead because they don't have to pay the $250,000 to $1M we do here to buy all the engineering CAD and CAM software that we need. Some companies I've worked for couldn't afford to pay for software that would have made our jobs much easier. Our competition could get the same $50K software that we needed for about the $10 cost of the DVDs it came on. I don't think that's any better ethically or morally than stealing.

Regards,

John


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#61
Russell.Whaley
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/06 23:36:50 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: kellyrmartin

I am curious. Do you believe that attending your church gives you stronger moral convictions than someone who does not?


Just for the record, I'm not preaching, just answering a question I had a change of heart/mind a number of years ago as sada10 did, and stopped using pirated software.

It all depends why you are attending your church. If you're there for the appearance of conformity but aren't taking the teachings seriously, attendance likely won't do anything to strengthen your moral convictions.

If you're looking for transformation, and are a committed adherent to the teachings of your church to that end, yes, I would think attendance would play a part in making you morally stronger.

My .02 worth of local currency.

Cheers,

Russ





#62
mauricio_rocha
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/06 23:52:02 (permalink)


I will put it on this way, I am a cheap a s s!

So you know the rest of the history
#63
mauricio_rocha
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/06 23:53:44 (permalink)


Forgot to say;;

I ALWAYS PAY FOR CAKEWALK SOFTWARE!!! AND IK MULTIMEDIA
#64
Boogie
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 00:37:49 (permalink)
Another piracy debate! Sweet! I can't get enough of these.

#65
CoteRotie
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 00:54:14 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Boogie

Another piracy debate! Sweet! I can't get enough of these.


Yeah, this troll really reeled us all in.....

J-

Wait, wait, what key is it in? 

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#66
Tape Head
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 02:40:20 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: HammerHead


do you download from bittorrent ?

usenet ?

warez sites ?


only you know the answer.


certain to be an overwhelming YES from this crowd.



Am I a Software Thief?

No, but my boyfriend is.


-S-

Scott
#67
HansDampf
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 02:53:53 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: CoteRotie

ORIGINAL: HansDampf

[Well, there is a fine difference and it is about getting old to mention it
It is just this: If you steal my car, I don`t have it anymore. If you illegally download a song, it is not taken away from someone. So there is no physical loss, but the financial reward for the creative work and marketing is denied. And that is illegal and unethical, but in fact not in the same way as stealing a physical product.


Interesting point. It's correct that there's no physical loss, but there is a loss of income to the people who are trying to earn an income as programmers and developers. (Your point.) I'm not sure there's really much of a difference there- One way you have to spend money to replace the item lost, the other you have to replace the income lost from not making a sale.



I agree with you. On the other hand I don`t say thay it is less or more unethical to use unlicensed software than to steal a physical product. But talking only in financial terms (but that is NOT my point) it is questionable if using unlicensed software is the same loss of money. Simple example: You steal a SONAR-box from your local music-store. There are two parties who have a loss: Cakewalk who is not paid for creating/marketing/distributing AND your local music-store that already bought the box from the distributor. If you download an illegal copy at least your music-store doesn`t have to replace the box version, although there is also the lost sale. This might be discussed further, but that is not my point anyway. What I want to say is, that software is often understood or sold as a product (in the same way as a car or other "physical" products) but it is an intellectual service, even if it is a so-called standard-software like SONAR. I don`t know if it would pay off all in all, but one possibility would be to reduce the price for the retail-box on the one hand, but invent a paid (and guaranteed) support-service on the other hand. The support on ACT alone may be a goldmine To "rent a licence" may be another possibility.....
post edited by HansDampf - 2006/11/07 03:12:08
#68
tommybgood
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 03:09:23 (permalink)
I pay for all of my software.

But I steal all of my guitars from GC.
#69
cyberzip
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 14:46:28 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Vuzz13

True, so true!......how about 20 to 40 percent of my stuff is warez? Is that OK? (kidding...)
(I really do love the percentage thing, it has a amazing life around here, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to whoever birthed it, ...consarn it, I wish I had thought of it!)



Ditto! I think it's about 20-40% funnier than any of the other jokes made around here. :)
#70
sjandrews
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 14:47:17 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: tommybgood

I pay for all of my software.

But I steal all of my guitars from GC.



Now that's living on the edge.. Do you buy the software and steal the guitar in the same visit to GC?


I wonder how much software sales would increase if you HAD to boost it off the shelf of GC... There is much more risk involved with trying to steal a physical thing..

Also how much of a sales hit do you think GC would take if you could download a Gibson or Fender guitar, or a Mesa / Fender amp? Quite a hit I bet.. Perhaps 20 to 40%
post edited by sjandrews - 2006/11/07 15:05:14
#71
LLyons
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 17:05:06 (permalink)
Always pay - never steal, or even "borrow for an undetermined time without asking".... Its odd how many folks have something broken upstairs to contemplate stealing.
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kilgoretrout
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 17:34:06 (permalink)
The arguement of whether you are stealing physical property is irrelevant. How much a company can resell that property is irrelevant.

If it is not yours and you take it, you have stolen it.

There are other costs to stealing that are borne by the legitamate users of the software. What if most people stole Sonar. Those of us who legitamately paid for it would get less and less customer support, new product development would decline and eventually cease and we would be left with a worthless investment.

Some might argue "Hey I am only one person." But the prevelance is too high to be ignored.

I live in the 4th largest city in the US. Almost all of our record stores have closed down. I buy vinyl at a place that specializes in it. There is one major new music place. Other than that, its Best Buy.

I talked to the people at one of the stores who said "After 30 years of being in the business, our revenues have dropped suddenly and we think it is because of downloading (both legit and illegit)."

Sad story of economic change catching up with old fogies? I think not. In this case, the store was the main purveyor of distribution of local talent as well. That is gone. There is not another replacement. You want a CD from a really good local band? You have to go to their show, or their website.

Cactus also played this music in the store frequently. As such, people that never heard of certain local bands would get exposed to it. That too is gone.

The economic and social costs of pirated anything are too high to ignore. Just because you can get something doesn't mean you should. ANd if your competitor or neighbor is doing it, it still doesn't make it right.

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#73
Sbax
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 20:52:02 (permalink)
It certainly does seem like there are a lot of thiefs stealing songs, movies, and software all over the place. The internet empowers this behavior and clearly illustrates that there is a huge percentage of people who will steal if they don't (won't) get caught. It also demostrates that, in general, parents are failing.

Even a child can understand the concept "Thou Shall Not Steal" hmmmm?

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#74
jb
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 21:34:09 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: kilgoretrout

The arguement of whether you are stealing physical property is irrelevant. How much a company can resell that property is irrelevant.

If it is not yours and you take it, you have stolen it.

There are other costs to stealing that are borne by the legitamate users of the software. What if most people stole Sonar. Those of us who legitamately paid for it would get less and less customer support, new product development would decline and eventually cease and we would be left with a worthless investment.

Some might argue "Hey I am only one person." But the prevelance is too high to be ignored.

I live in the 4th largest city in the US. Almost all of our record stores have closed down. I buy vinyl at a place that specializes in it. There is one major new music place. Other than that, its Best Buy.

I talked to the people at one of the stores who said "After 30 years of being in the business, our revenues have dropped suddenly and we think it is because of downloading (both legit and illegit)."

Sad story of economic change catching up with old fogies? I think not. In this case, the store was the main purveyor of distribution of local talent as well. That is gone. There is not another replacement. You want a CD from a really good local band? You have to go to their show, or their website.

Cactus also played this music in the store frequently. As such, people that never heard of certain local bands would get exposed to it. That too is gone.

The economic and social costs of pirated anything are too high to ignore. Just because you can get something doesn't mean you should. ANd if your competitor or neighbor is doing it, it still doesn't make it right.


If Cake were to go out of biz today (perish the thought) I certainly would not consider my investment "worthless." All the major daws are way more than most of us will ever need and will provide amazing results for years to come even without support. Further, skills honed on one transfers well to others.
Do you really think record stores went out of biz because of piracy? Please, how many cassettes got copied in the 70s? The economics are way more complex than your anecdote suggests but it was a clerk you were talking to ...

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#75
NYSR
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 21:56:21 (permalink)
Fully legit at all times. I do not even allow my daughter to download music. How could a musician steal from his colleagues.



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#76
kilgoretrout
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 21:57:25 (permalink)
Actually it was the store owner I was talking to.

Maybe the example isn't the best.

I do stand by the theory that enough piracy robs the honest people. And it is dishonest.

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#77
Rain
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 22:07:20 (permalink)
I REALLY don't mean to advocate any form of piracy.

That being said, I think we need to come up w/ new ways to retribute people for their hard work - it might sound way too abstract, and I don't have the begining of a solution, but the age of internet and digital media make me think that the old paradigms are dying - and this whole new world that's opened before us can't be dealt w/ using the same means and principles as the old one.

And some people manage to do it; we've all heard about that Winamp guy and his 80 millions $... Every one I know has bought at least a few records in the last year. Yet I'd have the hardest time finding ONE of them who actually paid for the full Winamp. Still... Record companies count their losses and that guy is friggin' rich. There must be ways...

Second... Kilgore talked about record stores closing. Sad. But that's where were at, it's the internet age. And we have to adapt or be left out. Those type of record stores might have been purveyors for local bands, but no matter how much we want to blame illegal downloads, internet made it possible for thousands and thousands of artists to get visibility, to get their music heard and for some, even to get signed. For someone who's grown up in a small town like I did, as an artist, internet would have seemed a gift from God. No local store could have provided me w/ a tenth of a million of the opportunities digital medias and internet does.

For thousands and thousands of people like me, internet means an opportunity. For others like big record companies and all the metallicas in the world, it mean a loss in incomes. If I were an idealist, I'd see it as the end of the old saying "The rich gets richer, the poor gets poorer"...

I could sit down an moan all day that I'll never be signed a major label and be the kind of success story that used to exist in the old days, travel on my own private jet plane and live the superstar life. Life goes on... and Record store close.

But I'd rather focus on the fact that the tiny space that used to exist between big fat superstars and absolute nobodies grew exponentially w/ internet. (Meaning that there are possibilities to get your music heard and even make a living out of it w/o Sony or EMI backing you up, much more than there used to be). 99% of the stuff I listen to and promote nowadays consists of artists who probably hardly make a living out of their music, signed to small labels. And I'd have never heard of them in the old days. Stores in my little town would not have carried their records anyway (who cares for that little belgian record label after all?)... Maybe their own local store might have been a good purveyor.

I know software is a different story, but there's got to be ways.

post edited by Rain - 2006/11/07 22:27:35

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#78
kilgoretrout
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 22:21:20 (permalink)
I agree with most of that.

My point about the record store was supposed to illustrate the greater community loss - not just the record store but also the showcase for local talent.

Radio stations that play local talent are pretty much limited to low wattage college stations. As you know programming can be hit and miss. Having a record store that would play local bands' original music was nice. It gave you a way to learn more about them.

Yeah the internet has created a niche that wasn't there before and I hope for everyone that tries to make it that it actually helps.


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#79
rscain
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/07 23:17:42 (permalink)

A couple of years ago when I first started recording (using Guitar Tracks Pro) a "friend" of mine gave me a disk with some plug ins on it.
I didn't know the difference and installed several of them on my pc. The thing went nuts!
I never did find out which program was responsible, but after reformatting my hard drive (the only way I could make things right again) I called this guy and ask him where he got the plug ins. He said he had downloaded them from a file sharing group he was involved with, didn't say which one.

Since then the only programs on my pc are ones I PAY for. That way if something goes wrong I at least (in theory) have some recourse.

Yeah, software is expensive, and it's easy to steal, but for me it ain't worth the potential headaches. And of course, it's unethical.

That's my deal.

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#80
sms
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/08 00:33:32 (permalink)
Gotta play devil's advocate for a minute here. The idea of theft --"Thou shalt not steal" is many thousands of years old, if not more. The very concept of the possible existence of something called intellectual property is what -- maybe 200 years old? They are clearly not the same thing, regardless of whether you consider one or both right or wrong (just as kidnapping and assault are not the same thing, though they're both crimes).

Theft means taking something tangible from someone -- something physical that (as was pointed out earlier) they once had but no longer do once you steal it.

Intellectual property violation means copying one or more ideas that someone else came up with first. These ideas can take the form of a machine design, a mix of molecules, a combination of notes and rhythms, a particular arrangement of words, and so on.

The prohibition of theft is probably as old as humanity, starting out in a rather barbarous form (clubbing the hairy guy who took your sabretooth tiger meat) and becoming more and more codified.

The prohibition of IP violations, on the other hand, involves a whole series of logical loop-de-loops and indoctrination. And I say indoctrination because clearly people don't naturally condider it theft -- it's taken decades of publicity campaigns, warnings, prosecutions, jailings, trade wars, embargos and so on to even get people to start to reduce their IP violations. And most people are still a long way from feeling that stealing a $5000 guitar is in any way equivalent to copying $5000 worth of CAD software for free. I have the distinct impression that for most people, not violating IP is a practical rather than moral matter. All this indicates pretty clearly that we know theft and IP violations are two very different things.

To have IP, you have to convince people that ideas --ideas!-- can be owned. This is a pretty wild proposition if you think about it a bit.

Then, you have to indoctrinate people to believe another rather outlandish concept -- "lost profit". The idea that not making a sale means you have lost money is anything but natural. In fact, most folks would consider it patently ridiculous after a wee bit of reflection. Does going into a store and not buying anything constitute "lost profit". Sure does! The store owner could have made a sale, but didn't. So, according to the concept of "lost profit", he just lost out on money that should have been his. Of course, he lost no merchandise --we're not talking about theft here, but about someone who window shops without making a purchase-- so no reasonable person would say the store owner has lost anything whatsoever.

Or imagine a woman about to buy a $5000 mink coat when a smelly, drunk guy comes in the store and starts hassling her, making her leave in a hurry without buying anything. Should the smelly guy be able to be sued or jailed for "lost profit"? Because in this case, he really did cost the store owner $5000!

But when it comes to IP, we're expected to suspend the logic we use for everything else in life and buy (pardon the pun!) the idea that a sale not made means the seller has had the sale price stolen from him. That's "lost profit" in a nutshell.

IP also depends on convincing people that this concept of "lost profit" is logical, legitimate, and real. Not an easy sell, as the software and music industries have found out.

And going even further, consider the fact that there have been (and perhaps still are, in some remote region) entire cultures where the very concept of private (physical!) property is inconceivable. What exists is everyone's, or no one's. It just is.

These are all philosophical, moral and ethical considerations. But what about practical ones?

All the arguments in favor of IP have already been dragged out here, so there's no point in me repeating them. But I haven't heard any arguments against IP, so let me throw a few out.

Imagine if Europeans had had to pay the Chinese royalties for each ounce of gunpowder they manufactured! If IP were a natural concept, the Chinese would have at least asked for such payments. But the very concept was so outlandish that it was simply never considered. But if the Europeans had had to make such payments, the planet would look incomprehensibly different than it does now, for better or worse. Europe's powers already had enough problems raising money for wars, invastions, colonizations and occupations. If they had had to fork over IP payments to the Chinese for the gunpowder they used in these ventures there would have been a lot fewer of them. Who knows -- perhaps everything from Mexico on down would be ruled by the Incas or the Aztecs! Perhaps what is now the US and Canada would belong to many different nations or a few federations or confederations of indigenous peoples.

Which brings us to another point, alluded to by another poster -- IP violations in the Third World. It's very easy to say "Those evil Chinese thieves!" when you see Huawei making routers that are such perfect copies of Cisco's that they even have the same software bugs! It's very easy to say "Those evil Brazilian thieves!" when you see Brazilian companies making drugs covered by a First World company's patent, thus reducing the cost of the drug to patients by about 90%. And so on and so forth.

But the Chinese, Brazilians, Indians, South Africans and others --whose voices are never heard in these debates-- have very strong counter-arguments. For one thing, the powers that are most strongly insisting on the punishment of IP violations (the US is number one here) are the very same powers that benefitted tremendously from both IP violations and the theft of physical property for centuries (not to go off topic, but the immense wealth taken by force from the people of Africa and the Americas by Europeans and their descendants has given the First World a HUGE head start in all things development related). And in this light, the US and others' harping about IP violations are nothing more than self-serving pseudo-arguments designed to keep the countries that are already on the top of the economic ladder firmly entrenched there. Hypocrisy, in the best case. Economic war in the worst case.

There's also a strong argument that IP violations in the software world are mostly committed by people who do not have the money to actually buy the products they freely copy, and that therefore the manufacturers are losing few if any sales. In other words, IP violations may well do very little real harm to software companies -- you can't lose a sale you would never make.

There are also cases in which tacitly permitting IP violations has led to market dominance. Microsoft is the clearest case here. They made no real attempts to prevent the "piracy" (this is a brilliant rhetorical move, by the way -- using the same word for someone who assaults, kidnaps and/or kills people in order to steal their physical property to talk about someone who copies ideas; it's even better than calling pro-choice people the "pro-baby murder crowd", and MUCH more widely accepted) of their OSes for 20 years. And that led to their OS becoming the de facto worldwide standard. And it's only now that they have no real competition (Linux in 10 years, perhaps, but that's it) --a near monopoly-- that they're starting to implement effective anti-piracy measures. Brilliant!

And then there's death. The enforcement of pharmaceutical IP is killing people every minute of every day, and drastically shortening the lives of even more people. Fortunately, in my opinion, some countries have told Big Pharma to screw itself and are making analogs of their AIDS drugs and either giving them to patients for free or charging a pittance, for example. And while AIDS is at worst a tragic personal issue in the rich North, in some countries in Africa it is so widespread that it is devastating the national economy -- 26% of Zimbabwe's adult (15-49) population is HIV positive!

And did you know that public libraries were highly controversial and bitterly opposed by the publishing industry at one time? Free, legal IP! No way!

Anyway, some food for thought, to keep this from degenerating into one of those boring old piracty debates.




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#81
crash_3210
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/08 00:46:42 (permalink)
WOW... and i thought i had time to type on the keyboard
#82
CoteRotie
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/08 01:06:43 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: sms

The prohibition of theft is probably as old as humanity, starting out in a rather barbarous form (clubbing the hairy guy who took your sabretooth tiger meat) and becoming more and more codified.

The prohibition of IP violations, on the other hand, involves a whole series of logical loop-de-loops and indoctrination. And I say indoctrination because clearly people don't naturally condider it theft -- it's taken decades of publicity campaigns, warnings, prosecutions, jailings, trade wars, embargos and so on to even get people to start to reduce their IP violations. And most people are still a long way from feeling that stealing a $5000 guitar is in any way equivalent to copying $5000 worth of CAD software for free. I have the distinct impression that for most people, not violating IP is a practical rather than moral matter. All this indicates pretty clearly that we know theft and IP violations are two very different things.



Well, sure, but look at the progress we've made in science and technology since we've had IP laws on the books.




Imagine if Europeans had had to pay the Chinese royalties for each ounce of gunpowder they manufactured! If IP were a natural concept, the Chinese would have at least asked for such payments. But the very concept was so outlandish that it was simply never considered. But if the Europeans had had to make such payments, the planet would look incomprehensibly different than it does now, for better or worse. Europe's powers already had enough problems raising money for wars, invastions, colonizations and occupations. If they had had to fork over IP payments to the Chinese for the gunpowder they used in these ventures there would have been a lot fewer of them. Who knows -- perhaps everything from Mexico on down would be ruled by the Incas or the Aztecs! Perhaps what is now the US and Canada would belong to many different nations or a few federations or confederations of indigenous peoples.



Intellectual property laws, despite the efforts of the music industry, were designed to give exclusive rights for a limited period of time. (Like 17 years for a patent). This would allow the inventor to recoup the cost of R&D and make some profit before the invention becomes public domain. This is why we have innovation. If you couldn't profit from it, far fewer people would bother inventing and developing things. Following IP norms, the Europeans could have paid China royalties on gunpowder for 17 years without changing much of anything. Licensing fees are usually reasonable so that the licensee can maximize profits.



Which brings us to another point, alluded to by another poster -- IP violations in the Third World. It's very easy to say "Those evil Chinese thieves!" when you see Huawei making routers that are such perfect copies of Cisco's that they even have the same software bugs! It's very easy to say "Those evil Brazilian thieves!" when you see Brazilian companies making drugs covered by a First World company's patent, thus reducing the cost of the drug to patients by about 90%. And so on and so forth.

But the Chinese, Brazilians, Indians, South Africans and others --whose voices are never heard in these debates-- have very strong counter-arguments. For one thing, the powers that are most strongly insisting on the punishment of IP violations (the US is number one here) are the very same powers that benefitted tremendously from both IP violations and the theft of physical property for centuries (not to go off topic, but the immense wealth taken by force from the people of Africa and the Americas by Europeans and their descendants has given the First World a HUGE head start in all things development related). And in this light, the US and others' harping about IP violations are nothing more than self-serving pseudo-arguments designed to keep the countries that are already on the top of the economic ladder firmly entrenched there. Hypocrisy, in the best case. Economic war in the worst case.



Other countries are free to treat intellectual property as they please. However, China lobbied hard to be part of the WTO, and one of the conditions of membership (to which they agreed) was respect for intellectual property laws. If these other countries expect to trade and benefit from relationships with the IP respecting world then they should think hard about respecting IP rights.
A moral exception might be India's manufacture of AIDS drugs, but China's blatant copying of works that cost millions to develop is not.



There's also a strong argument that IP violations in the software world are mostly committed by people who do not have the money to actually buy the products they freely copy, and that therefore the manufacturers are losing few if any sales. In other words, IP violations may well do very little real harm to software companies -- you can't lose a sale you would never make.



So if I'm going to have trouble making the rent payment next month I can download whatever I want for free? Or if not, how poor do I have to be before I can plunder SONAR, Office, Windows, etc? If my neighbor is never going to use his garden tools can I take those too? He won't ever miss them.




There are also cases in which tacitly permitting IP violations has led to market dominance. Microsoft is the clearest case here. They made no real attempts to prevent the "piracy" (this is a brilliant rhetorical move, by the way -- using the same word for someone who assaults, kidnaps and/or kills people in order to steal their physical property to talk about someone who copies ideas; it's even better than calling pro-choice people the "pro-baby murder crowd", and MUCH more widely accepted) of their OSes for 20 years. And that led to their OS becoming the de facto worldwide standard. And it's only now that they have no real competition (Linux in 10 years, perhaps, but that's it) --a near monopoly-- that they're starting to implement effective anti-piracy measures. Brilliant!



Perhaps. Immaterial to the argument.



And then there's death. The enforcement of pharmaceutical IP is killing people every minute of every day, and drastically shortening the lives of even more people. Fortunately, in my opinion, some countries have told Big Pharma to screw itself and are making analogs of their AIDS drugs and either giving them to patients for free or charging a pittance, for example. And while AIDS is at worst a tragic personal issue in the rich North, in some countries in Africa it is so widespread that it is devastating the national economy -- 26% of Zimbabwe's adult (15-49) population is HIV positive!



See above- This is perhaps a morally defensible reason to violate IP laws. However, if everyone did it the drug companies couldn't afford to develop these ultra-research intensive drugs and nobody would get them. Be very careful what you wish for here.



And did you know that public libraries were highly controversial and bitterly opposed by the publishing industry at one time? Free, legal IP! No way!



Sure, as were cassette tapes, video recorders, DAT, etc. The industry is unquestionably paranoid, but this is irrelevant to the debate.



Anyway, some food for thought, to keep this from degenerating into one of those boring old piracty debates.



Glad to see some other opinions here, civilized debate is always a good thing.


Regards,

John

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#83
CAW
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/08 01:33:17 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: HammerHead


do you download from bittorrent ?

usenet ?

warez sites ?


only you know the answer.


certain to be an overwhelming YES from this crowd.

Yes, and I've been doing your wife and mother too.

Great things happen in a vacuum.

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#84
JonD
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/08 03:39:53 (permalink)
I haven't bothered to read the whole thread so please forgive me if someone else's made a similar point... With all the great free and inexpensive stuff out there, you can be penniless, but as long you have a decent web-connected PC, there's no absolutely no reason to go warez. Even on a modest budget, you can put together a system that is perfectly capable of recording on a pro-level.

I've bought Sonar every other year, but by taking advantage of the late autumn "buy one, get one free" offer, I've gotten every version! I also have popular name plugs that I paid almost nothing for (all legit), because I'm patient (no cutting edge for me) and I keep my eyes open for deals.... and believe me, there are plenty out there.

Some examples of some of my best buys:

Gigastudio 3 Ensemble for $49.

VSampler 3 (bundled free with Sonar; don't remember what I paid for the full upgrade, but it was a steal considering I've been able to play SF2, Akai, Halion, and kontakt samples on this baby with little or no tweaking).

sfz+ $69 (Beta version that plays Giga format natively). Before I got Gigastudio 3, this was my main sampler. Giga users have to build networked "farms" to play what this app can do more efficiently as a plug-in.

Wizooverb for $95: Top-notch algorythm and convolution reverb. Many have called this the best-sounding convo-verb, while others pay hundreds more for the competition. For the money, this one absolutely is the best.

Group-buys, group-buys, group-buys! I've gotten many popular apps/plugs at a fraction of their street price because I got in at the beginning. (KVR-VST.com is a great place to find out where the bargains are).

These are just some of the many, great purchases (IMO, of course) that I've lucked into the last few years. Bottom line, there's no need to go down the warez road, when so many great products are practically (and often literally) given away!


JD
#85
Ognis
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/08 03:47:54 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Rain

I REALLY don't mean to advocate any form of piracy.

That being said, I think we need to come up w/ new ways to retribute people for their hard work - it might sound way too abstract, and I don't have the begining of a solution, but the age of internet and digital media make me think that the old paradigms are dying - and this whole new world that's opened before us can't be dealt w/ using the same means and principles as the old one.

And some people manage to do it; we've all heard about that Winamp guy and his 80 millions $... Every one I know has bought at least a few records in the last year. Yet I'd have the hardest time finding ONE of them who actually paid for the full Winamp. Still... Record companies count their losses and that guy is friggin' rich. There must be ways...

Second... Kilgore talked about record stores closing. Sad. But that's where were at, it's the internet age. And we have to adapt or be left out. Those type of record stores might have been purveyors for local bands, but no matter how much we want to blame illegal downloads, internet made it possible for thousands and thousands of artists to get visibility, to get their music heard and for some, even to get signed. For someone who's grown up in a small town like I did, as an artist, internet would have seemed a gift from God. No local store could have provided me w/ a tenth of a million of the opportunities digital medias and internet does.

For thousands and thousands of people like me, internet means an opportunity. For others like big record companies and all the metallicas in the world, it mean a loss in incomes. If I were an idealist, I'd see it as the end of the old saying "The rich gets richer, the poor gets poorer"...

I could sit down an moan all day that I'll never be signed a major label and be the kind of success story that used to exist in the old days, travel on my own private jet plane and live the superstar life. Life goes on... and Record store close.

But I'd rather focus on the fact that the tiny space that used to exist between big fat superstars and absolute nobodies grew exponentially w/ internet. (Meaning that there are possibilities to get your music heard and even make a living out of it w/o Sony or EMI backing you up, much more than there used to be). 99% of the stuff I listen to and promote nowadays consists of artists who probably hardly make a living out of their music, signed to small labels. And I'd have never heard of them in the old days. Stores in my little town would not have carried their records anyway (who cares for that little belgian record label after all?)... Maybe their own local store might have been a good purveyor.

I know software is a different story, but there's got to be ways.





Well said, more so about music, an artists, but well said, and I do agree.
#86
HansDampf
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/08 04:33:54 (permalink)
@sms & John:
Very interesting debate and I think you are both right. To me it is clear that IP is a construct and not deducable from its object (ideas) in the same way as Personal Property is deducable from physical objects. That doesn`t mean that Individual Property is the only way to go for all physical objects (we may learn much from indian philosophy or even by the concept of club-property, to name only two). But many things we are used to are just social constructs, for example marriage and monogomy. In fact there is no biological (!) need for two people to stay together all their lives. But there are social reasons why this concept became common. And so it is with IP. The main reason surely is to make sure, that creative people get paid for their intellectual work. I agree with John that this concept is necessary for a society that is based more on progress than on tradition. On the other hand there is the problem that (like in the example with the AIDS-drugs) that often all properties and workflows (idea, concept, engineering, production, marketing, distribution,....) are in the hands of one company. You may call this something like "product-lifecycle monopoly" and may lead to all the negative effects a monopoly can have. So it is no wonder that the IP-violation of AIDS-drugs in Africa may sound very "Robin Hood"-ish. Anyway, I think here lies the true reason why the music-industry never seemed to "like" the internet : It interferes with their "product-lifecycle monopoly". At least production and distribution are not in their hands the same way as before anymore.

The real question is not "are you a software thief?", but "why do so many people use pirated software?". The individual reasons may spread wildely, but it comes down to this: Because it can be done. To appeal to moral and ethics doesn`t help that much in preventing software-piracy generally. Moral only helps to find decisions for your own behaviour while you are tempted.
post edited by HansDampf - 2006/11/08 04:51:08
#87
Sbax
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/08 07:35:19 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: NYSR

How could a musician steal from his colleagues.


I wonder about that too. Maybe because those people who steal have no valuable, "sellable" music of their own?

But the Chinese, Brazilians, Indians, South Africans and others --whose voices are never heard in these debates-- have very strong counter-arguments.


When they actually create valuable IP and lose money from the theft of that IP, then they will be just as aggressive as the US or whoever you mean in your statement. You can bet on that.

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#88
00Zero
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/08 07:57:35 (permalink)
Who's the thief?

I know a guy personally who's album went double platinum and all he was paid from the record company was $72000. He wrote/performed all of the songs and produced 2.

Who's the thief?

How many times have you drooled all over your PC monitor looking at the screen shots for this years "all new" super duper audio plugin or hardware?
How many times after you've purchased the "Super Audio System" has it delivered all that it promised? Buyers remorse any one

Who's the thief?

Do software companies apply all new technologies, codes,ect with every new release? If not, then how can they charge an even more expencive price for the same old sh t.
I wonder if audio\software companies out sourse their needs to countries with cheaper programming outfits. I bet they transfer all of the savings on to thier customers and remaining employees

Who's the thief?
#89
HansDampf
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RE: are you a software thief ? 2006/11/08 08:52:40 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Sbax

But the Chinese, Brazilians, Indians, South Africans and others --whose voices are never heard in these debates-- have very strong counter-arguments.


When they actually create valuable IP and lose money from the theft of that IP, then they will be just as aggressive as the US or whoever you mean in your statement. You can bet on that.


That was not his point. It is about the Western civilisation, that has exploited those continents and peoples over hundreds of years and was able to get ahead in cultural and economic terms because of that. Now that they are forced and/or willing to compete with the western economic, their only chance to make progress for themselves is to produce at a very low cost. To reach this they have to minimize their expenses on development and research (besides other even more dramatic things).
#90
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