best guitar sound on a PC

That is a great freeking idea for those of us who would love to crank it up and mic an amp without bothering the neibors.
Cj

Hi!

That´s a nice piece of stuff!
I think I´ll try this for my vocal recordings
Maybe I need one or two more inches in each direction for my little singer.

I know what you're saying about standing waves, but with a bit of EQ both boxes I built sound very good and definitely usable. Close mic'd sound only unless you pop the lid when tracking, but all in all a very convenient tool to have around the house.

Actually, there's a few commercially made iso cabinets available that have been on the market for several years now. Obviously, they're not the no. 1 choice for a world class recording, but VERY handy and quite usable for home studios where you can't always crank it up.

Definitely has nothing to do with getting the "best guitar sound on a PC".

Just get an amp like the peavey Windsor or the Fender Princeton Recording amp. They both sound viscious.

My Triaxis sound killer direct into the DAW. The recording outs are pretty amazing.
I know that they are expensive. That's why I got mine used. It was still not cheap, but it has worked very well for me.

A used Studio pre goes for around 300-500 on ebay these days depending on condition. Those sound killer as well...

FWIW

Erik

'Air' is a HUGE part of the sound for me, when recording amps/cabs. Stuffing an amp in a box like that would bean unworkable solution for me. I'd rather use software if I were forced to do that. I usually use at least one mic on or close to the grill. Then another back a foot or so...then...the magic trick is a ribbon mic anywhere from 3 to 10 feet away. That adds SO much dimension and air to the sound. It gives the signal from the speakers time to develop and blend with the room. Obviously, this is not an setup everuy one can take advantage of. For those with space and/or DB level issues, I personally believe you'd be far better off with software, going direct through a really nice DI that stuffing a great amp in a cushioned box! Just my opinion!

My son and I built a custom stereo power attenuator with a balanced output.

I run my Rivera S-120 into it and feed a pair of EVs and run the output through a Carvin 2020 EQ.

Everything is balanced and goes Amp -> attenuator -> EQ ->EMU 1212 card

I fool with the EQ curve til it approximates the high end roll off of the EVs.

It works fantastically - The playback sounds exactly like the output of the EVs once
you get the EQ curve right - and you never have to change it.

Seems like a lot of work to yield the same basic results as the typical POD type solution although I guess it makes sense if any one of the modelers can't get you close to your particular sound. Maybe some of us guitar tone fanatics can tell the difference between a mic'ed cab and an amp simulator, but the general listening public has no idea.

For a 100 clams you can get a V-AMP Pro that sounds phenomenal recorded, and I think it sounds better than my POD xt Pro recorded. My hands down favorite for direct recording is the Digitech GNX3000 which allows the use of two different amps and cabs in the same tone and allows the recording of simultaneous dry and wet signals. So, later if I don't like the tone I can go back and reamp the dry signal with a different, tailored patch.

I've been playing electric guitar since 1971 and grew up with the best tube amps available. But with the quality of today's modelers I had to let go of the past and all its traditions. I no longer even have a guitar amp. I now run my various amp modelers right into a small mixer with active PA speakers. The result: Big Stereo Sound. When I want to practice at 3am I get my favorite tone with the use of headphones, and I record direct so volume is never an issue. I hate to admit it, but most guitarists are stuck in the past and need to evolve a little.

Or did I just stir up the hornet's nest?

No hornets nest! To each their own, really. I own NI Guitar Rig 2, Amplitube 2, Nigel (from the UAD-1 suite) and a few Voxengo amp sims. I also have a Boss GT8 modeler, a Vox Tonelab and some cheap, Digitech floor modeler. I have, needless to say, a lot of modeling options available. I've also extensively demoed the Line 6 stuff and the Roland rack stuff (which is a lot of fun when it comes to the 'far-out' synth stuff!). Of all of that, I have to say...NONE of it moves me at all. When I go from a modeler (hardware or software) to my Vox AC30 CC2 (w/Blues) or to my Fender Bl. Jr. Deluxe (tweed) w/Jensen....I always sigh a sigh of relief!

Don't get me wrong, the software and COSM stuff has gotten a LOT better. ...even acceptable. Burried in a track, one might never notice. But, if it is a quieter song, with a 'featured' rhythm guitar or solo, there is just an audible difference to me. I prefer real air, transistors and tubes, still, for the most part. I like having all of the processing stuff around too because they have their place in a given song. I use them all of the time for the sake of simplicity and variety. I already have 3, real amps. I will be getting 2 more...but then that is really it. I don not have the room or the budget for a dozen amps. If there is a sound I want and I can approximate it with a modeler, I am inclined to do that. I really do not care for the way ANY of the modeling stuff stacks, thoough. If I will be layering guitar parts, I will not use modelers at all.

Just my opinion...

ORIGINAL: DigiDis

Seems like a lot of work to yield the same basic results as the typical POD type solution although I guess it makes sense if any one of the modelers can't get you close to your particular sound. Maybe some of us guitar tone fanatics can tell the difference between a mic'ed cab and an amp simulator, but the general listening public has no idea.

For a 100 clams you can get a V-AMP Pro that sounds phenomenal recorded, and I think it sounds better than my POD xt Pro recorded. My hands down favorite for direct recording is the Digitech GNX3000 which allows the use of two different amps and cabs in the same tone and allows the recording of simultaneous dry and wet signals. So, later if I don't like the tone I can go back and reamp the dry signal with a different, tailored patch.

I've been playing electric guitar since 1971 and grew up with the best tube amps available. But with the quality of today's modelers I had to let go of the past and all its traditions. I no longer even have a guitar amp. I now run my various amp modelers right into a small mixer with active PA speakers. The result: Big Stereo Sound. When I want to practice at 3am I get my favorite tone with the use of headphones, and I record direct so volume is never an issue. I hate to admit it, but most guitarists are stuck in the past and need to evolve a little.

Or did I just stir up the hornet's nest?

Even with several high-end DI boxes/channel strips available to me, top-notch AD/DA conversion, very nice active monitors and a highly treated room....there is not a single customer, visitor, myself....even my 13 year old son that prefers the sound of the software/modelers over the real thing!

I guess if you are not using a really nice amp, it might compare on some levels. But NOTHING I've used sounds as good as my AC30 or my Fenders...nothing.

It has absolutely nothing to do with being stuck in the past. It has everything to do with 1s and 0s not being able to accurately mimic the 'chaos' that goes on inside a tube or a transistor. Organic harmonics are just NOT created with these modeling boxes/software suites. They lack width, depth and most importantly dynamics/nuance. There is no modeler that can 'interact' with me the same way an amp can. They also can never accurately represent the magic you get when the signal coming from the amp speakers interact with physical air. That is a HUGE part of the sound. I guess you could mic your monitors and record the modelers signal that way....but why?

Lets also not forget the way tubes change as they heat and cool. Even in a given song, you can change the way the tubes sound by pushing them harder and softer...changing the temperature and the amount ov voltage running throough them. This has an audible effect on the sound (mostly with distortion and harmonics). Also, how can you account for not only different speakers in an amp or cab, but how those speakers break up at a given volume. Also, speakers change over time as they are used more and more. This is a big part of the sound and charm with amps/cabs. I have Celection Blues in my Vox AC30CC2. Once I hit about 30 to 50 hours on these speakers, they REALLY woke up and started to sound gorgeous! You can never get that with modelers.

There is SO much to getting a great guitar tone. Guitar, pedals, amps, playing dynamics, etc. In my experience, software and hardware modelers take a lot of that away. They take out the interaction factor and leave you with a predictable, generic sound that lacks character. I'm not speaking out of school here. I have thousands of dollars worth of this stuff in my studio. I just don't like using it, even though it is a lot easier than dragging whichever amp is chosen into the amp booth, trialing a dozen or more mics, trialing various combinations of those mics, etc. But, to be honest, that is part of why i really enjoy working with amps over plugging in to a DI and loading up software or plugging my Tonelab or GT8 into my AD.

OK, enough ranting from me...

ORIGINAL: mike_mccue

"I now run my various amp modelers right into a small mixer with active PA speakers. The result: Big Stereo Sound. When I want to practice at 3am I get my favorite tone with the use of headphones, and I record direct so volume is never an issue. I hate to admit it, but most guitarists are stuck in the past and need to evolve a little."

That's freaking silly...

While you're listening to headphones at 3 am I an BATHING in acoustical sound scapes anytime I wish... I would say that you've devolved into a home entertainment enthusiast while some guitar players continue to experience the acoustical envirmonental sculptures that only a real amp/speaker/room combo can provide.

BTW how big's your *Big Stereo Sound* stereo?

enjoy,
mike

I am not a very good guitar player but I know this - I have Line 6, Tech 21 GT2, Voxengo, Amplitube and other amp sims (Cakewalk's own Ampsim is just as good). None of them sound anywhere near as good as my Peavy Classic 20 with an Audix I5 or SM57 close mic'ed. Real tubes, pedals and air is guitar recorded - Bass is different - It sounds great direct but guitars are just a different beast imho.

And my room in not near being optimal and the amp still kills anything the modelers can do - This comes from me and several of the guitar players I have had in.

The iso rigs I've seen consist of a specially-designed speaker and microphone in a dampened box, and fed from a speaker out on your amp head.

Like this one: http://www.randallamplifiers.com/products/cabinets/isolation/index.asp#

The mic only picks up a direct sound from the speaker, no ambience at all. I don't think you'd want to just plop your whole amp itself into a box.

I think being in a room with an amp and a favorite speaker, listening AND FEELING it, is definitively living IN THE PRESENT. You are never gonna hear or feel that sound again... all you can do is try again and then THAT will be the present.

Ahh... sounds like I got the hornet's nest going here

I too appreciate a well made tube amp hooked up to a 4X12 cabinet as much as anyone else. And I grew up with access to all the equipment I wanted and had some really impressive setups that would rival Petrucci. That being said, I don't think there is enough difference in a recorded track between a POD and a mic'ed cab to be significant.

So, let's continue the comparison. I think most would be surprised to know just how many records are being made with PODs and other DI modelers today. Is the Line6 Vetta a real guitar amp or not?
I just saw one one the world's finest guitarists using a Vetta on tour (Michael Romeo of Symphony X). I am sure for their latest album that Vetta head went direct, and produced his best guitar tone to date. Why would Michael Romeo abandon the Mesa Rectifiers for a Vetta? The Vetta really is an Amp sim. As for live usage, again, many would be surprised to know how many empty cabinets there are at concerts as many guitarists are going straight to the board. That great Nirvana tone was really an Ibanez TS-9 and a SansAmp going straight to the board and the cabinets onstage were empty to help get the guitar through them.

Let's talk about guitar tone. I argue that 99 % of what we really consider to be good guitar tone comes from the fingers and not the equipment. Do we really need boutique tube amps to sound great? How many people put solid state pedals in front of a clean tube amp? Most of the best guitar effects processors today are digital. Think about the recording process. Guitar into effects into the amp into a microphone into a mixer into more effects and a ****load of compression, into the computer where more VST effects are applied, then doubling tracks, and all the other tricks of the trade to fatten up guitar tracks. After all that do you think whether the amp was tube or solid state or a DI Unit really makes that much of a difference? I think what ultimately makes the difference is the technique of the guitarist and his ability to create music, not a tone. I argue that Petrucci, Romeo, Van Halen and all other great guitarists would still sound great even if recorded with a Behringer V-AMP. I also argue that any typical beginner is still going to sound horrible coming out of a Mesa Rectifier.

And that beginner's recordings will still suck even if he puts the cabinet into an isolation box and turns the amp all the way up.

I still argue that too many guitarists pretend to be tone gurus just like too many people pretend to be wine connoisseurs.