best way to add analog tape warmth?

I use Cakewalk Guitar Tracks Pro, Windows XP, M-Audio Mobile Pre soundcard. I record "old school" guitar/bass/drums/piano/organ classic rock, alt rock, punk and blues tunes.

Regardless of which analog tape warmth simulator I use, which strategy will wind up sounding most like recording on an analog tape machine?

1. Find a setting which produces a realistic approximation of analog tape warmth. Record all individual tracks at the same setting, on the theory that a tape machine would apply the same effect to all tracks. Then apply the same setting in stereo to the final mix on the theory that the final mix would be done on the same tape machine.

2. Find a good setting, apply it to all individual tracks, but don't apply it in the mix because it's already been added to each track.

3. Don't apply it to individual tracks, just apply it in stereo to the final mix.

4. One setting won't work for all individual instruments. Apply whatever tape warmth setting sounds best for each. Than add it again to the overall mix, or not?

I don't want to radically alter the sound of the instruments or the mix. Just want to approximate analog tape warmth in digital recording. Which technique is likely to produce the most realistic overall result? Thanks.

Yep,

Thanks for your well stated reply. I've posted this question in other forums, and replies generally mirror yours: 1. don't make so many assumptions, and 2. trust your ears, each track, instrument and mix will differ, so there is no overall solution.

I'm familiar with tape, becoming familiar with digital. To my ears, digital tends to sound somewhat brittle. I'm not trying to add back hiss, crosstalk or distortion, nor squish the life out of my tracks or muddy them. Just looking to reduce what I hear as brittleness in my digital work. Selectively reducing high frequencies with EQ just seems to result in a brittle mix with no high end clarity or sparkle. Adding low EQ results in a brittle mix that's muddy. Hence my newbie question about adding "warmth." Maybe I should have phrased the question in terms of how to subtract brittleness.

Very interesting discussion. I am also always trying to add "warmth" and soften up digital sound. Everyone has their own preferences, but for me I just don't like some of the "Sterile" overly "brittle" sound.

One thing I like to do is use tube based equipment to record - tube amps for guitar, tube preamps for mic recording. I also like to record from an analog mixer into my digital computer.

One thing I have been doing lately is doing an A/B comparison between my mixes and famous recordings I like.

Overall, I agree that you have to trust your ears.

I'm familiar with tape, becoming familiar with digital. To my ears, digital tends to sound somewhat brittle.

perhaps the most common complaint for those that have made the transition from analog to digital.

There are many ways to warm up digital recordings, and Yep has covered just about all of 'em, as have others over time on this forum.

The only thing I will add is that - as of yet - I have not heard a tape sim... any tape sim ... really simulate tape.

I'm not saying that they don't do anything... I'm saying that for those of us "old schoolers" who cut their teeth on tape, the sims don't simulate a 24 track MCI or Ampex with the meters smacking up around 6 db. To people who have little or no experience in actual tape recording, the sims might sound fine, but then again, they haven't anything to base it on either.

On the other hand, If a tape sim is giving you what you need (or any plug in for that matter) then use it... but understand that while some of these plugs do a great job at emulating their hardware stand alone cousins, many do not. That's not to say that they don't have their own sound though, because they do... and if a particular application is working within the context of where and how you need it at the time, it matters not if it's a "real" Fairchild 670 or a plug in simulation.

To Yep's comments regarding jitter and converter quality, I would only add that if you are experienced in analog and are just becoming experienced in digital, watch your top end.

It's a habit that many engineers had to overcome when we made the transition from A to D, in that many of us used to intentionally exaggerate top end to tape because we knew that a particular deck had certain top end limitations, or because we were planning on bouncing alot of those tracks and knew we might lose some hi's in the process from generation to generation.

I guess what I'm saying is that if older habits have taught you to jack 12k @ + 8db to tape, ... LOL... don't do it on digital.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

-D.

Thanks to all for the continued input, very helpful. DonnyAir notes something important. Don't treat digital the same way one would treat tape, especially jacking up the high end.

In addition to not jacking up the high end, here's something else I just learned: Don't push the meters in digital past 0dB. I used to love the sound of hitting the tape hard, well past 0dB. I've discovered that doing the same in digital only makes things harsh and, um, brittle.

Last couple of days I re-recorded some previous material and made sure the recorded signal doesn't top out above 0dB. Guess what? That helps mitigate the brittleness.

Caution, heretical rant ahead.....

Ok, been doing this a long time and have spent thousands of dollars chasing a pro sound by investing in plug ins. I can absolutely say that there is no end to that road. Transformers and Tubes are required to make ITB sound like classic albums of the past. All that plug ins offer is coloring but with that coloring comes a cloudy, haze of sound which comes close but does not really sound like tape or music running through real hi fi electronics.

About 6 months ago I looked at all the low end crap I was buying in the form of tube preamps or even inexpensive transformers, as well as all the plug ins I have purchased chasing "The Sound". If I added up all the money spent in this arena I could have gotten a really good stereo preamp, compressor and EQ to sit on my main buss. Ding! An idea was born....

After cleaning out my home studio of all the things that had accumulated and putting myself on a software starvation diet, including keeping my charge cards away from the computer screen, I saved enough to buy a quality final buss structure which although not at the top of gear hierarchy, was adequate in producing album quality results in Sonar. I knew I was on the right track when I talked to Terry Howard at the AES show and noticed he primarily mixes into a Manely Vari Mu followed by a Manley Passive EQ. Although out of my reach financially, it substantiated to me what it takes to get "The Sound".

Using extensive plug ins reminds me of painting by numbers. You will get results which could closely emulate a great painting but there is no artistic fascination for the observer to admire your work. This is because your paints and brushes (we will leave talent out because let's assume you are talented) that come in a paint by numbers box are not equal to the tools of a real painter. A real painter would be frustrated with these tools knowing that expression is the ultimate goal, not making due with the tools available.

At the end of the day, a decent stereo compressor along with a decent stereo EQ are required to make digital sound that rivals the appeal of tape. If this is not possible then at least have decent preamps, mics and tracking compressors to capture the sound. This can eliminate many problems up front.

Inexpensive mics and preamps recorded into Sonar have not ever produced a satisfactory sound for me. The thing I realized that was missing was the low to mid range warmth that analog gear provides. In addition the smooth high end detail that comes with the same gear. Now, you can boost the low midrange (contrary to what many say helps clear a mix i.e. cutting low midrange) with a plug in but it tends to smear your sound if you are not careful. The vocal is about the only thing you can try this on, to emulate a fat analog signal without getting into too much trouble. This works only if you have already cleared this area on other tracks. The smooth high end however cannot be emulated except with grainy distortions like EQ boosts or compressors or tape sat plugs which smear the high end making the mix darker sounding or narrow sonically. In the end the brittleness of digital does not easily go away.

If you want to get away from chasing a pro sound and focusing on the art, buy a decent stereo compressor and stereo parametric and stick this on your buss prior to hitting your monitors. Also use this for mix downs. ITB problems solved, move on to making some music. Now I know this is not cheap but in the end it will end up costing you about the same as chasing sonic heaven $200 at a pop over many years while never reaching the door.

By the way, my final buss structure is a Portico 5012 into a Portico 5043 into a Sontec EQ. Get's the job done. Total investment was about $3800. I sold a lot of my low end stuff for about $1000. I have about $1500 in UAD plug ins which will also be sold. Net cost of the mix buss chain should be $1300 in the end.

Now all of this gear is kind of midrange pro but the sound of harsh ITB is gone. Worth it to me.

Aahhh...that felt good. Maybe I have saved someone from years of frustration. My work here is done.

ORIGINAL: fendorst
...Don't push the meters in digital past 0dB...

Oh, um, yeah.

Digital doesn't saturate. Digital clipping sounds awful. Don't do it.

Cheers.

j

Which technique is likely to produce the most realistic overall result? Thanks.

Get a second-hand reel-to-reel tape machine. It simulates tapes pretty well...

ORIGINAL: yep
Digital doesn't saturate. Digital clipping sounds awful. Don't do it.

question on this - i've read that some mastering engineers actually clip on purpose to get the mixes louder, almost to the point where "mortals" can hear but not quite. is this true or just speculation by some guy with lots to time to spend on wikipedia?

i've noticed on a lot of newer albums that the vocals in particular seem to have a harsh sounding distortion (brittle i suppose is a good word - digital distortion is what it sounds like)...

ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic

ORIGINAL: yep
Digital doesn't saturate. Digital clipping sounds awful. Don't do it.

question on this - i've read that some mastering engineers actually clip on purpose to get the mixes louder, almost to the point where "mortals" can hear but not quite. is this true or just speculation by some guy with lots to time to spend on wikipedia?...

Yeah, it's sad but true, and mortals can absolutely hear it. The practice is called "shred." It's an ugly subset of the loudness race and the product of mooks who don't understand what they're doing demanding records that sound more and more edgy and hyped and louder than everything else.

FWIW, mastering engineers are generally very opposed to this practice, but they do what the customer tells them if they want to work. The mooks who order this type of distorted product believe that they are delivering what people want to hear, and that the protestations of audio engineers are complaints from audio snobs with superhuman delicate hearing who want everything to be the audio equivalent of foie gras with truffles when the people really want big macs. The mooks don't get that applying shred is not like selling big macs, it's like selling big macs with sand on top.

Cheers.

This is great stuff man. Great reading. Luving this thread. I grew up with analog tape too.

When all we had was analog tape, ohh how we wished for something better. Now we have it and ohh how we wish for something worse :-)

I'm exaggerating of course but not that much. We worry about tape/analog warmth and then negate all that by squashing the living crap out of our recordings - but wait - we're not done destroying it yet - let's convert it to MP3!!

oh btw - that new VC-64 compressor in Sonar really does a nice job of warming up a mix. Have any of you tried that thing yet? It's pretty nice.

Adjusting how hot the record levels are or whether you eq or print reverb before or after the recording can make a big difference when recording to tape.

I second that....brillance in abundance, which is greatly appreciated.


Regards,