Bort
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buzzing sound
I play Synthogy Ivory through SONAR X3 and every 30 seconds or so I hear a short buzzing sound especially when I play many keys at once. This is not directly specific to Synthogy Ivory as I get this also when I play wave clips but mostly notice it when playing live. Sometimes the sound degrades until all the sound becomes distorted. Resetting the audio engine cleans it up but eventually degrades again. I tried the WASAPI and the ASIO driver. The others don't work. I tried playing with the buffer sizes and sampling rates and even at conservative values the problem is till there. My PC is very powerful 4GHz 8 core CPU with 16Gig DDR3 and a fast SSD drive.
Some have suggested that my audio interface may be the problem. If so can I get a recommendation on one that works well with SONAR. I am looking for something with as little latency as possible focused on live play. I don't need many analog inputs because I don't record that much (one would be fine) but do need two head phone jacks with independent volume. Its also important that I can listen to other sounds generated by my computer in parallel to SONAR. Right now both WASAPI and ASIO drivers prevent all other apps from creating sound.
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THambrecht
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/05 05:01:11
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That looks like a problem with the the power supply of your devices.
Maybe hum loops, you can hear all half minute the phase correction of your provider.
This is up to various long cables and poor shielding.
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brundlefly
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/05 11:39:15
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What interface are you using currently? If the issue goes away when you reset SONAR's audio engine, that certainly sounds like a driver problem as opposed to power supply, ground loops or other analog issues. Since Ivory uses disk-streaming of samples IIRC, you'll also want to make sure your disk is are managing the load okay, too. And check your DPC latency (Google dpclat and/or latencymon).
As far as a new interface goes, if you don't need portability or laptop compatibility, I recommend getting something that uses a PCIe bus card rather than USB or FW, preferably with MIDI port(s) also on the card (or breakout box) to further reduce total latency when playing live. The best FW interfaces seem to be capable of delivering quite low latencies, but you have to pay for it.
I haven't surveyed the market lately, so I really can't make a specific recommendation. I loved my E-MU 1820m in terms of performance, features and sound quality, but driver support was poor toward the end of its life and it eventually suffered a hardware failure of some sort. Nevertheless, I would have gone that way again but the new models didn't have the ADAT I/O I needed. I ended up with a MOTU 2408 PCIe audio interface but my MIDI ports are now via USB (also MOTU) and have twice the transmission time of the E-MU (7ms round-trip vs. 3.5).
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R3V3RB
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/05 12:59:34
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You don't have a loop delay or similar in your project anywhere at all do you?
These can sometimes mislead you into initially thinking there is a problem by looping low level track noise until it builds up to audible levels.
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Bort
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/06 03:01:05
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I have a built in sound chip set (Realtek High Def Audio) that is on my ASUS motherboard. As far as latency shouldn't this be the best since the chip is right on the south bus? This is a popular chip set with motherboards so I don't know why I get what seems like driver degradation in SONAR. Everything else works great: hard core games, media players, media center, etc. Would an external sound card perform better or should I get an internal one? Which one? My main need is minimal latency and concurrent sound, SONAR and other apps at the same time. Haven't been able to achieve this.
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brundlefly
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/06 04:18:29
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Yes, you'd think that onboard sound would have a bus-speed advantage, but the chips they use are very rudimentary, low speed devices with equally inferior drivers that are simply not capable of running the small audio buffers needed for real-time audio processing. Latency doesn't matter with for basic playback as in games, MP3 players or recorded tracks in SONAR because you have no reference for what "Now" is (with the possible exception of how soon you hear a weapon discharge after triggering it). But when you're trying to play music on a keyboard, and the sound is coming out 50 milliseconds after you hit a key, you really notice it.
You can usually lower the latency with Realtek by installing ASIO4ALL (google it) and setting SONAR to ASIO driver mode. But it still won't allow you to run a small enough buffer to make real-time playing of soft synths pleasurable.
Pretty much any name-brand external interface will handily outperform Realtek, and will deliver perfectly satisfactory latency for playing soft synths in real time. I just wanted to point out that a good PCIe interface will generally deliver the lowest total latency if that's what you're after.
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Bort
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/06 07:38:38
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Yes you are right, latency doesn't matter for recording but I am not using SONAR for that. I am mainly using it with Ivory II VSTI for live play and some occasional back tracks but the emphasis is on live play. It is absolutely my number one priority to have latency close to 0. I can currently achieve a latency of about 20ms which gets very disorienting during fast piano riffs when the produced sound occurs as the finger goes up instead of down. With ASIOforALL I have achieved close to 5ms which is livable but then I get sound pops and lose the multi-app ability to produce sound. So to summarize, I have three problems I want to solve. 1. Bad latency 2. Intermittent pops and short buzzing bursts 3. SONAR monopolizes the sound production when using any drive with lower latency, I need other applications on this PC to simultaneously produce sound. I don't need any inputs or anything fancy on my sound interface other than an audio out. There are very few PCI solutions with modern drivers for Windows 7,8 64bit. Only one I can find so far in the $200 range is the ASUS Xonar Essence ST card. This card is not on the approved list for SONAR though so will this fix my issues or does anyone recommend something else?
post edited by Bort - 2014/04/06 07:47:29
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/06 08:03:46
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☄ Helpfulby Schafe 2014/04/06 08:07:28
If you are using this for live playback I have to say its somewhat insane to rely on an onboard realtek device. Onboard audio is prone to like DPC latency issues and subject to glitches based on CPU load. Getting reliable low latency with onboard audio is a crapshoot.
Get yourself a simple USB audio interface - there are tons of good ones available that will do solid low latency.
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Bort
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/06 09:03:47
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Which one do you recommend for $200 or less? Will the ASUS Xonar Essence ST do the job? And is it possible to have low latency and also prevent SONAR from taking over control over the PC sound muting all other apps?
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CJaysMusic
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/06 12:52:34
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Bort
Which one do you recommend for $200 or less? Will the ASUS Xonar Essence ST do the job? And is it possible to have low latency and also prevent SONAR from taking over control over the PC sound muting all other apps?
No, you need to get a sound card made for recording and one that has good drivers for low latency. Look into MOTU, Echo, Focusrite and RME for sound cards. I think k the only one you can get for under $200 may be one of the focusrite models, as those other sound card manufactures start at about $600 and go to $1800. USB or Firewire are your options. I prefer USB as Firewire sound cards can be picky depending on your firewire chipset inside you rPC. You may need a Dice II chipset for a firewire card and many PC's do not include those. So look into a USB card. CJ
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/06 13:06:31
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Bort
And is it possible to have low latency and also prevent SONAR from taking over control over the PC sound muting all other apps?
Change the Share Drivers With Other Programs setting.
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Bort
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/06 16:23:38
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CJaysMusic
No, you need to get a sound card made for recording and one that has good drivers for low latency. Look into MOTU, Echo, Focusrite and RME for sound cards. I think k the only one you can get for under $200 may be one of the focusrite models, as those other sound card manufactures start at about $600 and go to $1800.
Again remember what I will be using this for. Absolutely no recording. No need for inputs. No need for absolutely anything else other than rendering live sound generated by VSTI in the cleanest possible way with 0 latency. I prefer the interface be inside the PC (i.e. PCI) for best latency and no component clutter. No USB portability required or desired. 1. Looked at MOTU. In their PCI Audio section, they only have three expensive offerings that are rack mountable with lots of inputs and fancy recording features. Need none of that. 2. With Echo I see no internal card offerings. 3. Focusrite is all external boxes with lots of knobs in inputs. Don't need nor want any of that. 4. RME is expensive and overkill for not needing any of their features. With the vast experience in this forum, can no one recommend a simple PCI audio card that just renders audio out, has great drivers for latency and good clean sound quality. I don't need expensive external boxes with features I will never use. Guess I'll go with ASUS Xonar Essence ST if no one can help with fitting suggestions and cross my fingers.
post edited by Bort - 2014/04/06 16:30:34
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Bort
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/06 16:28:20
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Noel
Change the Share Drivers With Other Programs setting.
Does not work. I checked that box and the moment I play anything in SONAR all other apps go silent. Tried with WASAPI and ASIO drivers. The only other driver that works is the regular sound card one but that one has horrible latency.
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Bort
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/06 18:25:56
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This might be a stupid question but if my motherboard DAC is the problem, will an external DAC like (FiiO TAISHAN-D03K Digital to Analog Audio Converter) give me the needed clean sound with no lag?
Optical out of the on board Realtek into this one. Wouldn't that eliminate the poor quality DAC on the stock motherboard? Maybe I don't understand what extra an audio interface provides for me, but if all I need is a clean analog signal out (with none of the recording features of the other studio interfaces), then the digital signal out of SONAR just needs to be converted to analog right?
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brundlefly
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/07 12:54:53
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I can't say for sure, but I don't think using the Realtek's optical out is going to solve the problem. Also, getting a dedicated audio interface for SONAR will automatically solve the problem with driver sharing, as you can let Windows, browsers and other multimedia apps continue to use the Realtek. If you have a PCI slot (i.e. not Express), you might consider M-Audio audiophile 192 or 2496: http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.family&ID=PCIinterfaces Otherwise, in that price range, you're going to have to shop used.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/07 13:07:03
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Bort, I'm sorry but this is just the way things are. Quality costs. PCI(e) cards are not often used anymore and there are few budget offerings, but a USB based offering like the Scarlett shouldn't really be much worse latency wise, the quality of that has improved significantly over the last few years.
The smallest options from the really pro companies like RME or Apogee (Mac only) cost upwards of 500 bucks. If that is not what you want to spend then you're looking at something from Focusrite, Edirol or M-Audio. I wouldn't personally recommend M-Audio and the Focusrites are popular on this forum. That should tell you a lot. If you really want top quality and few features you could go for a PCI based RME 9632. It has only one analog I/O, midi, a phones output and an optical ADAT I/O. It sells for 325 euros where I live.
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Jay Tee 4303
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/07 15:39:56
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After paying near retail for MOTU 2408mk3 core and expansion systems, I was back at GC for a cable or two, and what did I spy?
A 2408 mk2 w PCI card in the pre-owned case, for $160! Its mine now!
It came w a 30 day locally exercisable guarantee that I didn't need, it works perfectly.
IBM PC/XT 1 MB RAM 8087 Math Co-Processor 5 Megabyte Seagate Hard Drive Twelvetone Cakewalk Version 2.0
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Bort
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/07 19:19:03
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Sanderxpander
The smallest options from the really pro companies like RME or Apogee (Mac only) cost upwards of 500 bucks. If that is not what you want to spend then you're looking at something from Focusrite, Edirol or M-Audio. I wouldn't personally recommend M-Audio and the Focusrites are popular on this forum. That should tell you a lot. If you really want top quality and few features you could go for a PCI based RME 9632. It has only one analog I/O, midi, a phones output and an optical ADAT I/O. It sells for 325 euros where I live.
No one has mentioned the Komplete Audio 6? It is very reasonable in price. Is this any good?
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robert_e_bone
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/07 20:26:49
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I don't know that particular model, but I used to own and beat the crap out of one of their older interfaces - can't even recall the name now. But it gave me bulletproof reliability for several years of HARD gigging use.
So, while not knowing that model, I WILL vouch for them making good converters and a quality hardware box for them, so I would think that device would be fine.
Bob Bone
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Sanderxpander
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/08 04:07:55
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Yeah I think they're probably around the Edirol range, I would rate them slightly above the simplest M-Audio ones but that may be cause I'm kinda done with my Fast Track Pro.
But I thought you didn't need/want 4 analog ins and outs? The Scarlett 2i2 is half the price and I don't expect a large difference in quality. It doesn't have midi though, the 2i4 does (and is still cheaper than the Komplete).
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/08 04:40:11
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What puzzles me you don't want a "normal" external audio interface, because you don't need any of the features.
Why are you using SONAR then for live performances, if you don't need any of it's features either? Isn't it an unnecessarily heavy program to be used only as a VST host? I wonder if using a plain VST host would affect the latency as well (?).
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Bort
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/08 05:39:03
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Kalle Rantaaho
What puzzles me you don't want a "normal" external audio interface, because you don't need any of the features.
Why are you using SONAR then for live performances, if you don't need any of it's features either? Isn't it an unnecessarily heavy program to be used only as a VST host? I wonder if using a plain VST host would affect the latency as well (?).
I tried other DAWs and I could not get any of them to work with the Ivory VSTI. They just wouldn't detect the DLL. I also developed a custom MIDI VST myself in .NET for some unique filtering features I needed and again only SONAR detected it. Tried Ableton, and a few others and I just couldn't get them to work with them. Also SONAR has some nice MIDI editing tools for accompaniment which I use for live play. So I use many of SONAR's features but I just don't use it for recording any live instruments, synths, or vocals. I mix recorded MIDI with pass through live play to drive VSTIs for live output. So low latency is paramount.
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Bort
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/08 05:49:49
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Sanderxpander
But I thought you didn't need/want 4 analog ins and outs? The Scarlett 2i2 is half the price and I don't expect a large difference in quality. It doesn't have midi though, the 2i4 does (and is still cheaper than the Komplete).
I don't but there isn't anything else I found to choose from. The Scarlett 2i2 is not quite half the price. $150 vs $220 and from benchmarks and forum testimonials the Komplete Audio 6 seems to have a lot lower latency. The MIDI is nice to have too since that's what I use mostly. So this is the closest compromise.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: buzzing sound
2014/04/08 06:44:33
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Right, it's 128 vs 229 here, so nearly half. But that sounds like a good consideration then.
Although honestly, if you really want top quality and would like a PCI based solution, I'd save up the extra hundred and get the RME 9632. At least it's 325 here. Benefit is also you can expand it later, they make custome expansion boards with 4 ins and or outs, and it has ADAT for another 8 I/O. It's the pro solution vs the prosumer solution.
Of course, you couldn't bring it with a laptop like you can with the others, and perhaps you feel it's overkill for your situation.
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