peter434
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clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
Hello to everyone, In order to test some plugins, I launched some sequences from my external Yamaha synth and arranger, coming on a stereo track. I bypassed the direct mix function of my VS700 audiocard, putting the input echo for listening the real time effect and begin to test diverse plugins... After many plugins combinations (and headache), I decided to bypass individually all the plugins, and after that, toggle the main button FX, and surprise : The sound appeared more dynamic and clearer !! ?? Have you noticed that as well ?
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Sanderxpander
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 08:48:24
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There is a lesson in there somewhere :)
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peter434
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 09:20:03
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Hey Sanderxpander, could you be more explicit ? Maybe, what I 've noticed can be interpreted as a placebo effect, but I 've verified that I was not deceived by simply pressing the button !
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ltb
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 09:41:34
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That should be your aha moment, think 'less is more'. I hear so many mixes using too much compression, fx's, eq'ing & especially reverb on them.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 09:50:39
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What Carl said. Don't use plugs for the sake of using them. Use them to address specific issues and always keep your goal in mind. Try to imagine what you want the sound to be like before throwing in a plug. If you used a compressor and afterwards you are disappointed that the sound is less dynamic, that's a prime example of what we're talking about here.
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peter434
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 11:42:16
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Thanks Sanderxpander and Carl for your feedback ! (Sorry, Maybe my English doesn't translate very well what I've experimented, especially that the point is a bit tortuous !) The problem is that I've bypassed individually every plugin in the track, and this is only after that I pressed the main FX button (in Mix module of the control bar). So I didn't make a direct "with plug"/"without plug" comparison, but indeed one track with its every plugin inserted, turned OFF and after this same track (with its plug OFF) but with the main FX button pressed, i.e, all the effects bypassed : That should give the same result as far as sound is concerned since every plugins is bypassed, manually or with the main FX pressed, but not : I've just noticed that the sound was clearer by clicking the FX button (like if I have recovered more definition and more dynamics, in a subtle manner but noticeable). I add that all pro channel modules (in the track and in the Master bus) were turned off. Again, it was a realtime listening of a sequence from external hardware keyboard through my VS 700 board (VS 700 direct mix bypassed, and input echo of the track on) . Nevertheless, I have not experimented to record this signal and afterwards, made the comparison with the signal recorded in Sonar. Maybe -but that should be a non sense- the fact to have an effect bin active, even with the effect(s) turned off inserted in this bin, has an impact on the overall sound (?) (like a kind of mathematical compensation by anticipating the process of the effects which are going to be inserted (?)) I hope I will have time to experiment more about this, but if you have the curiosity to experiment by yourselves, let's see if we note the same thing. Anyway, I don't complain about all the mix production possibilities that Sonar can offer, as well as the ease of use... but when there are some quirks, it's always good to report, especially when it deals with the dynamics of the original signal coming in Sonar. Once again, excuse me for my turn of phrase... Pierre
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Sanderxpander
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 11:49:01
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Ah I hear you. Sorry for adding to the confusion. I agree that that shouldn't be happening as far as I know. Bypassing all plugins individually should yield the same sound as toggling the master fx. My best guess is that there is still something in the chain that's on. Have you tried creating a new audio track, routing it directly to the output?
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drewfx1
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 12:07:58
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Generally when people think that something that shouldn't make any difference makes a difference it's either their imagination or they are in error about the cause.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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ltb
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 12:14:05
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There shouldn't be any difference. Also check your sends, returns, pre-post, bus gains & routing.
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peter434
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 12:15:52
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Thanks Sanderxpander, No, I haven't gone deeper ! But I've checked that there was nothing in the chain. Just the track with the 6 or 8 effect inserted but turned off as mentionned... routed to the master bus which is routed to the output of my soundcard. Once again, It is a new Normal project (no template, no effect chain presets...) Maybe, as you suggested, try to route the signal to a "virgin" track.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 12:16:45
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Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought that turning individual plugins off did more of a mute of the output of the plugin than it really turned them off. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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peter434
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 12:28:27
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Hi drewfx1 I agree that I can be the victim of my proper imagination; how many times, I turned a button on a plugin or on a device, and I litterally could "hear" an effect whereas the plug or the device were turned off !! But I systematically check more than 2 times because I'm very scrupulous concerning the sound; As I said, I have to go deeper, but I could confirm that the signal wasn't the same and maybe this is under particular circunstances that I have overlooked.
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peter434
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 12:33:54
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Hey Robert, Maybe this can be an explanation !! That would induce that the signal should pass through the individual plugins and turning them off would attenuate the signal !
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Sanderxpander
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 12:45:28
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That is definitely not the case. Turning it off bypasses it.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 12:59:16
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SOME plugins still allow signal through them even when turned off. You might also try stopping and restarting the audio engine after turning plugins off. That has been reported in the past as helping clean up sound after turning plugins off. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Sanderxpander
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Re: clearer sound when main FX bypassed (?)
2014/04/05 13:23:04
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I have never had a plugin mute sound when using the Sonar bypass. Could you point me to one?
Additionally, the OP said his sound got "clearer and more dynamic", he didn't say there was no sound and then there was after hitting the switch.
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