creating a choir library

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native
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2010/01/31 17:08:40 (permalink)

creating a choir library

I'm thinking about creating a small choir library, consisting mainly of oohs and aahs etc. for film music like productions.

however, I yet know next to nothing about sampling. I've got a good choir and a possibility to record it. I've only got the software included in in Sonar PE 8.5.

would I need additional software, and how would I have to edit the recordings so I can use my library from within Dimension Pro?

any advice would be appreciated.
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    daveny5
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/01/31 17:20:09 (permalink)
    First you need to get a sampler. Sonar does not come with one. Gigasampler is a popular one. You need a VSTi sampler plug-in. Then you need a choir and some microphones to record the samples and a lot of time. Its a LOT of work. You'd be better off looking for a good Choir plug-in package. Magnus Choir is one, but I know nothing about it. There is a demo. Do your homework before you plunk your money down. 

    Dave
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    #2
    Oaf_Topik
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/01/31 17:42:06 (permalink)
    Gigasampler has been discontinued.  I would get Kontakt 4.

    #3
    slartabartfast
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/01/31 17:47:18 (permalink)
    Well, you do not need a sampler to record a choir. Technically you do not even need a sampler to edit the recorded audio from Sonar into looped samples in some formats. You could even get away with not having a sampler to play samples in Sonar, but it would certainly make it easier to trigger the samples from a keyboard or midi file. Making a good sample from even a pristine recording can be pretty time consuming, even with the best of tools, so daveny5 is probably right about the advisability of buying a set if you just want a vocal  oooh or ahh. If you do buy a set, make sure you buy the rights to use it the way you intend. The main advantage to doing your own is that you can sample stuff no one else finds sample-worthy (buffalo farts leap to mind, but I am not sure how they would survive pitch shifting), and that you can use them any way you want once you have them.
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    garrigus
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/01/31 17:54:35 (permalink)
    You could save yourself a whole lot of time and just purchase EastWest Symphonic Choirs...
    http://www.digifreq.com/m...t%20Symphonic%20Choirs

    Scott

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    post edited by garrigus - 2010/01/31 18:20:05
    #5
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/01/31 18:04:02 (permalink)

    I'm thinking about creating a small choir library, consisting mainly of oohs and aahs etc. for film music like productions. however, I yet know next to nothing about sampling. I've got a good choir and a possibility to record it. I've only got the software included in in Sonar PE 8.5. would I need additional software, and how would I have to edit the recordings so I can use my library from within Dimension Pro? any advice would be appreciated.

     
    Not to discourage you in any way...
    But realize that any type of current-generation sample library is going to be extremely complicated/tedious to produce.
    Recording a choir and then programming the results into something like Kontakt 4 (writing custom scripts to switch articulations/designing a custom GUI/etc) is a lot of work.  Not that you can't do it... but it's a lot to absorb and do well... especially if you're new to the whole process.
    Do you have access to a good room/hall to record said choir?
    Do you have good mics/preamps/A/D converters to record the choir?
    Do you have experience in how to best record a choir (mic placement)?
    Does the Choir have excellent intonation?  If not, you're going to have a nightmare in the editing stage.
    In any event, know that you're getting into a monumental project. 
    I'd say easily 6+ months worth of hard work...

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
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    #6
    timidi
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/01/31 18:19:10 (permalink)
    I say go for it. Considering you have some decent mics and pre-amps, The only complication with the post production I see is how to turn it into a dimension pro file. But, I'm sure that info is available somewhere. However, I don't quite understand the desire to make it a dimension pro file. All they really need to be is acidized wavs.

    It would be a pretty big undertaking to cover enough keys, options etc.

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    #7
    jungfriend
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/01/31 20:05:30 (permalink)
    Yes it would be a lot of work, but there is a need for choir libraries. Symphonic Choirs is a bit difficult to use and also pricey. You might consider the pricing and what you can offer before you go forward, but I think it would be nice to have an alternative to Symphonic Choirs and Vocal Planet (which I own).
     
    Paul

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    mixmkr
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/01/31 21:02:50 (permalink)
    question on the Magnus choir
    the "demo" understandably has the "beep" in it, but also a lot of hiss.  I presume the hiss and "whine" are not present in the actual program...correct.

    Also, Magnus seems like a "one trick pony"...  the winged monkees marching in the Wizard of Oz... ..etc.

    sounds cool though.   Hard to throw $40 for one patch however.

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    jaydrake
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/01/31 21:07:06 (permalink)
    I'll have to side with Jim on this one. I have been recording a choir for the past 10 years and it is no easy task to get a really good sound, never mind converting it all to a sampler. I don't want to discourage you, but just know what you are in for. Again, it will be no easy task.

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    bitflipper
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/01/31 21:32:09 (permalink)
    Jim Roseberry knows of what he speaks, having done a sample library himself.

    Nevertheless, I'll go against the tide and encourage you to give it a try. The worst that can happen is you learn a lot of practical new techniques. And even if you end up with a library that isn't up to commercial standards it may still be usable for your own purposes. Plus you can always add to it over time.

    I've long considered making a simple library of my granddaughter's voice, since she's contributed some nice oohs and aahs to my projects in the past but isn't always available when I need a little angelic choir. A library need not be as sophisticated as EWSC to be useful.


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    #11
    native
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/01 03:56:58 (permalink)
    thanks for all the input. seems this is a lot more complicated than I thought. as some pointed out, I might give it a try just for learning's sake.

    for production, it seems I should rather buy something. from what I've heard, I dig EWQL Choir, but it also looks like way more than I'll ever need. a few decent aahs and oohs would be enough. any advice which library might suit my needs?
    #12
    bitflipper
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/01 20:34:38 (permalink)
    EWQL is, I'm afraid, one of the best. But it's fairly expensive and requires an iLok dongle. The latter requirement precludes it from my own wishlist.

    VSL is supposed to have a good one, but it, too is expensive and iLok-dependent.

    Of course, I'm assuming that if you're doing film scores you're after high realism. There are less-expensive choirs, but they wouldn't fool anyone into thinking they were human. Check out the Magnus Choir for an example of a nice-sounding synth choir.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #13
    timidi
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/01 20:36:29 (permalink)
    but they wouldn't fool anyone into thinking they were human.

     
    you must have missed the Grammys..

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    daveny5
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/01 21:00:16 (permalink)
    There's oohs and aahs in TTS-1 and just about any GM softsynth has them. How good they sound has a lot to do with how you use them.

    Another option is to find some soundfonts (which are samples) and you can play them in Sonar using SFZ which is a free soundfont player.
    post edited by daveny5 - 2010/02/01 21:39:42

    Dave
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    Glyn Barnes
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/01 22:35:27 (permalink)
    Kontakt 4 has a new Choir in the bundled library, the blurb says "The Choir collection makes use of the new Authentic Expression Technology giving you a new level of control: the choir voices can seamlessly morph the vowels ("A-E-I-O-U") while holding a key/note, "
     
    Has anyone tried this? is it any good?
     
    I use the MTRON pro choirs a lot. NOT realistic as a human choir, but quite organic and perfect for that early 70's prog sound. Wick Rakeman's even got his name on some of the patches.

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    garrigus
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/02 10:52:58 (permalink)
    Haven't tried the Choir collection yet, but overall, KONTAKT is the best for a wide-ranging sample collection... not to mention all the editing power it provides...
    http://digifreq.com/?Kontakt

    Scott

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    #17
    bitflipper
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/02 11:17:10 (permalink)
    Kontakt 4 has a new Choir in the bundled library, the blurb says "The Choir collection makes use of the new Authentic Expression Technology giving you a new level of control: the choir voices can seamlessly morph the vowels ("A-E-I-O-U") while holding a key/note, " Has anyone tried this? is it any good?


    I would like to know this, too. It might be sufficient motivation to upgrade to K4.


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    #18
    tarsier
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/02 14:54:23 (permalink)
    VSL is supposed to have a good one, but it, too is expensive and iLok-dependent

    VSL is synchrosoft/eLicenser not iLok.  That might be the same thing to some people, but for me it's a world of difference.

    eLicenser hasn't screwed me over yet. (yet...) iLok did.

    #19
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/02 14:59:26 (permalink)
    If the OP is new to sampling, then there would be no better way to jump in than get Kontakt 4.
    It's all the sampler you'll ever need... and then some.     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
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    Lemonboy
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/02 16:03:59 (permalink)
    Glyn Barnes


    Kontakt 4 has a new Choir in the bundled library, the blurb says "The Choir collection makes use of the new Authentic Expression Technology giving you a new level of control: the choir voices can seamlessly morph the vowels ("A-E-I-O-U") while holding a key/note, "
     
    Has anyone tried this? is it any good?
     
    I use the MTRON pro choirs a lot. NOT realistic as a human choir, but quite organic and perfect for that early 70's prog sound. Wick Rakeman's even got his name on some of the patches.

    I'd say the Kontakt 4 choirs are "okay" I certainly wasn't blown away.  But have a listen to the Kontakt 4 audio demos on the NI site, there are a couple there that feature the choir sounds and give a good idea of what they can (and can't) do.  
    http://www.native-instrum...kontakt-4/?content=936


    Andy
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    Kuusniemi
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/04 04:18:45 (permalink)
    The K4 Choirs are ok. They've programmed them pretty nicely with keyswitches. I use them layered with other choir libraries to fill out the sound. I mostly layer them with the choir patches from Ilio Origins, which have a nice close up sound. http://www.ilio.com/ilio/origins/index.htm

    Currently my favorite choir library is Bela D Media's The Giovani Edition, which has a boy choir and a girl choir. http://www.bestservice.de/detail1.asp/bela_d_media/the_giovani_edition/en
    #22
    Yendor
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/04 13:48:22 (permalink)
    Although I can't justify the cost yet, if you're plopping down that kind of change, be sure to check out Omnisphere - there's 374 vocal patches.   I'm also big fan of the demo's of Symphony of Voices, as well, but again, that amount of money is hard to justify.   You can easily see that for that price, the amount of production, effort, and skill that is needed to generate awesome samples.

    What's interesting is that Spectrasonics owns both, so maybe they'll incorporate SoV in Omnisphere one day... from what I've read on other forums, I think they have a few patches from there anyway.  

    They did this with Trilian with their older Bass samples, too.  With Omnisphere, you may have a whole new environment to do the type of scoring you're looking for.    

    So many toys, so little time, so little money...
    post edited by Yendor - 2010/02/04 13:52:06
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    ...wicked
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    Re:creating a choir library 2010/02/04 13:56:40 (permalink)
    I don't know if I'd try and record a "library", but given the chance to record a choir I'd take it. Yummy samples abound with that stuff. 

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