cutting low freq when DI'ing guitar

Thats what I have to do to get a decent sound from
some of the guitar sims (particularly Amplitube fender)
when di'ing into my focusrite interface using the instrument level
setting.
 
 I am not at home at the prsent so cannot give you specfic
values for the amount of low frequency cut, but it is not insignificant
 I used to have a m-audio 1010 interface, and basically had to do the
same thing - so I do not think its anything to do with the foscurite
 
On the Amplitube website they used to have audio examples(Wav's) of the different amp types offered . They had a wav for the audio going in(unprocessed signal) and a seperate wav for the audio out( processed signal), for each Amp -
As I was starting to doubt my hearing - I  downloaded the unprocessed signals (a bit nerdy - I know!)  and played them back in Sonar, with a frequency analyser vst
 
ALL the samples had a significant cut in the bass/low freq.
which at least made me fell better
 
I get a pretty good sound out the amp sims now(after the cut), and thought
it may a be a heads up for someone thinking  "This Amp Sim sounds crap"
 
and also wondered  how may of you out there did the same??    

One of the first things I do when I have all the tracks laid out ready for mixing, is to apply HPF to all the guitars except the bass.

  I'm more of a Fender man -- But the point I was trying to make is that some, well actually quite a lot of the patches on Amp sims can sound pretty horrible without a cut especially if you're after that cleanish fender sound

IMO you can't get a decent (rock)mix without HPFing the guitars. In a solo riff or rhytm it may be necessary to let it all through, but otherwise...

In the best sounding double tracked power chord parts I've been able to make I've cut at approx. 150-180 Hz, and I think you can easily go higher, depending on the sounds. But I'm just an amateur.

godino: I'll share a few things with you to add to the awesome info you've received from everyone. (especially Kalle and Rain) I'll formulate a little question and answer summary for you. No, honest I'm not crazy...I'm an only child and actually have a blast talking to myself. LOL! :)

1. Presets will always need more work with high passing.

Why is that Danny?

I'm not accusing you of using straight presets, but just about every preset I have ever tried (even in hardware guitar processors) caters to "the wow factor". Meaning, they want to rip your face off with something that moves you. That said, it's safe to say (unless you work for Acme Bar Gig or some of the other smaller guitar sim companies) the sounds that get created are most likely NOT tested in real world recording situations. They create the sound to where it sounds great by itself for shock value. It's up to you to tweak the sound to where it fits your mix.

2. I'm not using presets, I'm using patches I created myself and I get a killer guitar tone but for some reason, it doesn't quite fit in my mix and I usually have to do lots of work with the sound until I'm happy.

One of the biggest problems guitarists have is they just about always try for this big, fat sound that is often times over-loaded with low end. They want to feel it hit them in the chest like a baseball bat. Most guitarists will have this problem for a long time until they understand what to listen for so that they can fix these issues BEFORE they even record.

Just about always, a guitarist is going to pump the low end in a sound because it just sounds right. What they are not taking into account is, this sound will need to be in a mix with other instruments and will not work "the way they hear it". It's just not possible until you can get a grasp on what a good sound really is within a mix. So 9 times out of 10, you too will make this mistake and find yourself killing all the good stuff you thought you had in the sound just to make it work. As a matter of fact, once you remove all the bad stuff to where a sound works, you may throw up if you solo it up. Don't let that scare you though. Some of the worst solo'd up guitar tones sound the best while inside of a mix. You can always automate if the guitar is playing alone and add all the stuff back in that you took out. As long as the sound is by itself, just about anything goes unless it's "whoomfing" when you chug chords or whatever.

Ok, now that I'm done talking to myself and made my points in bold letters, I'm going to share some other bits of information with you that you may find helpful. Ok wait, one more strip of bold...lol!

The 4 general guitar sounds needed in recording: Here I'll explain the 4 basic sounds I feel are needed for guitarists. I'll take them one at a time.

The "All Alone" sound: This is a sound that can have just about anything you want on it. From extreme distortio, no distortion and lots of verb, chorus or flange, extreme eq...this is the sound that sounds great to your ears all by itself. You know, the sound that makes the hair on your arms stand up to where you thank God you are a guitar player and that you found or created this sound. 

The catch with this sound is...it must be used by itself. It will tank horribly within a mix just about always. You may have that low end I spoke about before going on and in a mix, you definitely don't want this happening. But because this sound is all by itself and is not being challenged by any other instrument, just about anything goes as long as it's an audible sound that you really like. That's all there is to it. It's the one we tone chasers go after for a majority of our lives...only to find out it fails miserably when in a mix of other instruments. But by itself, look out brother! :)

The "In the Mix" sound: This is the sound that needs to be tweaked for the mix and usually turns out to be your rhythm guitar sound. It shouldn't be loaded with gain to where the sound seems to simulatearunonsentencelikethisonehere. LOL! Too much gain takes away the percussive attack of your chord changes/executions. Ever have so much gain going on that it just sounds like one big distortion mess where you can't even hear where your chord changes are? That's a definitel no no. Guys that get insane distortion aren't using as much as you think they are. The right compression tightens up their distortion and when they execute chord changes or riffs, you can always here the sound let up. It doesn't bombard the listener with a constant gain attack unless of course they are using lots of right hand with constant strumming on a chorus section.

Too much effect will kill you too in this situation. If you are a delay user, be careful using too much delay on rhythm guitar sounds. If you like verb, no long tails because it will make the sound last too long. If you need to use a little verb, make sure is it a small room without loads of decay. If you like chorus or flange/phaser etc, be careful with these sounds because though they can somewhat make the sound appear louder than it really is, that usually is temporary due to the sweep in the actual effect wave. This can bury your sound in a mix and make it seems to lash out at times then go quiet.

Eq is the most important though. Stay away from low end if you can. There shouldn't be anything under 80 Hz in a guitar tone. It of course depends on the sound, but 7 times out of 10 if you high pass from 80 on down, the blanket of low end whooosh goes away. Some sounds may need to be high passed as high as 200 Hz. It depends on the sound you have created BEFORE it goes to disc. I have all my rhythm tones tweaked so much, I could literally get away with NOT high passing my sounds at all once they are recorded.

This took me years to learn because I was in the same boat where I was after this sound that was just ripping the flesh off my bones. Though you CAN achieve that, you always have to keep low end in mind. If you feel a guitar in your stomach, chances are you are using too much low end. It should never have so much low end in it that it sort of sounds like a bass guitar is playing with it. If you feel it to where the hair on your arms stands up, you are either really loud or those lows are way too hot.  You actually want to feel the guitar more in your chest than your stomach. I know that sounds weird, but low end frequencies will rattle your belly where more punchy and mid type frequencies will hit your chest. At least that's been my experience.

Watch for mids. We as guitar players are also always searching for "warm tones". Warm can be the death of you if you go too extreme because it will bring in mid-range congestion that will make your sound blend in too well with other mid range instruments like vocals and keys. We need a little mid range to keep the sound big, but we also need a little presence to push the guitar through the mix.

Speaking of presence, don't over do this either or you are left with a razor sharp guitar tone that will not have any impact. It will impact your hearing and kill everyone else, but it will not give you warmth. It can also get lost in hats and crash cymbals. Punch comes from the right amount of lows, mids and highs. One without the other and you're missing something.

The "Lead Guitar" sound: This one is similar to your "all alone" sound with a few alterations. You can load up gain if you need it because you'll be playing single notes. Of course you should only use the amount of gain you need at all times because the more gain you use in any sound, the smaller and more compressed sounding it will become. This is why clean sounds will always sound bigger than dirty sounds. They aren't sonic. But in your lead sound, you can use as much effect as you want as long as it doesn't wash out what you're playing. If you want to hear a delay in your lead, make it be heard. Don't listen to people that say "if I can hear the delay, you are using too much!"

That's a load of crap. If you play clean, you can get away with just about any effect on your guitar. But if you are NOT a clean player, don't try to hide behind effects. That will just wash out your tone and bury it. Everything in moderation. Now for eq's on something like this, my suggestion is to go the opposite of your rhythm "in the mix" sound. That sound has a bit more presence in it to cut through the mix. This lead guitar tone (in my opinion) should be warmer so the high notes to not pierce peoples ears. So having less presence or low passing from 7-10k can really work wonders. A little more mid from 640 Hz to about 860 Hz will thicken up the tone. Don't go nuts though...as I said, everything in moderation.

For lows, it's best to high pass here so that if you do play in the lower register on low strings or use a trem bar or something, you don't want the sound to lash out with a low end rumble. My area for taking care of this on my particular sound is at about 130 Hz to 150 Hz. Each sound is of course different.

The "Clean" sound: Every guitarist needs a good clean sound. Depending on where it plays will dictate how you adjust it. Clean sounds playing by themselves can have more of that "all alone" sound rule set. When you're playing with other instruments though, the clean sound should have more of a sparkle to it or it will get lost in the mix. The same with acoustic guitars. You can get this really fat sounding acoustic going on to where it just won't work in a mix. The reason being? It's too fat and usually needs lows and low mids taken out...as well as some regular mids so that it can cut through the other instruments.

What other instruments you have in your mix will determine how much of this stuff you will need to reduce. If the clean or acoustic guitars are playing with bass, drums and vocals, you can allow a bit more stuff to be present in the guitar sound there. If you have electric dirty guitars, piano or strings, you're going to start to have a mid range congestion problem...so you will need to thin out the clean/acoustics or the what other instruments in the mix that may be "filler" instrumentation.

If we have a piano that is just layering some chords here and there for texture, that piano doesn't need to be as fat as it would need to be if it were the focal instrument. Same with strings...if they are not the focus, they can be thinned out so your guitars can have more beef in them. If piano or strings ARE the focal point in the song, this is where you'll need to sculpt the clean/acoustic guitars to fit the mix and this means high passing, cutting mids, compressing a little more and adding sparkle to the sound as well.

Anyway, I know this is probably more than you wanted to know about this stuff. But these are guidelines that I have used fr many years and they have worked for me time and time again. There are times where you must create your guitar tone for the music/song, other times you can let the sound breathe and do whatever you want with it.

The short answer to your question is....you will always have to do some high passing until you create your own sounds to where you already compensate for this. As long as we as guitarists hear this "voice of God" guitar sound in our minds, it will always be a sound that has a little more bass than it should have...and the recording realm is where you'll need to remove it.

Real fast before I conclude this novel....in live sound situations...if you ever go out and see a band and the sound man has a good mix going on, go up and ask him how much he is high passing the guitars and at which frequency. You'll be surprised at how much they have to take out...so it's not just you, or the amp sims you use...this is common practice for just about every guitar situation unless the player is well seasoned and has a clue as to what too much bass is in a tone.

Hope this helps, best of luck. :)

-Danny

  danny what a monster post I'm at work at present i'll read it when I get home thanks

godino


  danny what a monster post I'm at work at present i'll read it when I get home thanks

Not a problem brother, you're quite welcome...it will make a decent read when you sit on the throne or something. LOL! :)
 
-Danny

So this is probably a really dumb question...... so how do you replace the cabinet emulations on the typical guitar sim using an impulse?  I have never even thought of doing this.  It is that FIZZ that always bothers me about the sims.

+1 to the HPF concept - on damn near everything except bass & drums. But I nearly always use a LPF on amp sims, too. 

Amp sims introduce harmonic distortion, just like a real amplifier. That means they're adding high-frequency content. But real amplifiers have a built-in lowpass filter in the form of power amplifiers and speakers that simply cannot reproduce high frequencies. The result is a rich midrange without that annoying "fizz". In a digital emulation, no such restrictions exist, so those harmonics go right on up to fs/2 unless you add a LPF.

Danny, slightly OT, but I know you advocate the use of compression on the way in when recording a DI'd electric guitar. Is there any reason why you say it should be a hardware compressor, or can the same thing be achieved ITB? Why? And are you using it to control the sound (ie. fast attack, medium to slow release) or add 'punch' (slow attack, fast release)?

jamescollins


Danny, slightly OT, but I know you advocate the use of compression on the way in when recording a DI'd electric guitar. Is there any reason why you say it should be a hardware compressor, or can the same thing be achieved ITB? Why? And are you using it to control the sound (ie. fast attack, medium to slow release) or add 'punch' (slow attack, fast release)?

You know James...it's funny, for some reason I don't seem to get the same results using a comp on the signal after it goes to disc. The main reason I do it is what Rain said. It just conditions the signal a bit. When I'm at my house, I'll use a Behringer or sometimes even a Boss Compressor Sustainer into my Mackie board and then into my Realtek. When I'm at one of my studios I like to use a Drawmer tube comp, or a Manley or a DBX comp while going into my DM 4800 and then into my RME FF 800, Layla 24/96 or my Audio Fire Pre 8. It just conditions the signal and sort of buffers it like a real amp input does, that's all. You can try an ITB comp and see how it reacts. I've just never done that with the same results simply because I like a conditioned signal going to disc at all times...so it's been standard practice that EVERY signal gets a little bit of this treatment. :) Hope that answers your question.
 
Thanks Rain! You were spot on. :)
 
-Danny

The white noise fuzz one can get from the Behringer and Boss pedal compressors acts like analog "dither". It's schweet.

Compressing with hardware on the way in before the Lo-Cut/Hi-Pass helps makes the Lo-Cut/Hi-Pass seem like it's more effective. If you do the Lo-Cut/Hi-Pass before compression you end up with a lot less that get's Lo-Cut/Hi-Pass-ed.

It doesn't seem as effective.

I like to put another Hi-Pass at the very end of the patch too... after the speaker impulse... just to make sure the reverb isn't making too much sense of space down in the low frequencies.



best regards,
mike




edit

 If you want to learn about impulses it will be helpful to learn about the latest dynamic convolution technology.

 Speakers are reactive. Single impulses don't address that and that is why most popular speaker sims sound stale.

 If you send some lively, uncompressed guitar slinging into a static impulse it will be obvious how it becomes conditioned and un-lively.

 It is less obvious that the sound becomes stale if you send it a less lively signal.

 The latest implementations of dynamic convolution processors use multiple impulses of specific speakers made at varying intensities and states in an attempt to mimic the way a speaker reacts when a music signal is played through it.


 Here's an old paper on Dynamic Convolution:
 
 http://www.sintefex.com/docs/appnotes/dynaconv.PDF



 The paper is old, but the implementation of the idea is just beginning to happen on desktop DAW because average CPU power is now capable of performing the calculations effectively.

 

 best regards,
mike

jamescollins


Thanks Rain and Danny, thought so! I'll mess around with hardware vs ITB comps when I've next got a free afternoon - I don't see why we couldn't achieve the same thing with software, but we'll see...

James, the reason being it's not the same signal push. Try it and you'll see what I mean. The whole thing about amp sims that I hate...is how they simply do not react to your playing the way that reaction happens when you use an amp. The little coloration or "push" so to speak from some sort of piece going in to your DI can really make a difference.
 
Here's a little example of what I'm talking about. I was going to make a video of this, but I couldn't make up my mind how I wanted to go about it. So here's an audio example with some narration that may give you a better idea as to what I'm talking about.
 
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/AmpSimComp.mp3
 
See if this helps any.
 
P.S. And yeah, I know you'll get a kick out of busting on my accent again...darn it! LOL! :)
-Danny