oneglobalmind
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effect send = increased gain???
Hi There,
This might be a goofy question, I was working on a drum track, I inserted a send to use for an effect.
If I actually have no effect in the send and I'm sending 100% of the signal to this track, is the result of this equal to an increase in gain?
(maybe a similar result to cloning the track?)
It does sound more full than the original track by itself.
Thanks - DG
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CJaysMusic
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 13:30:26
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Your adding an extra gain stage so its normal to see an increase, because your sending 100% of the level to that bus.
Having no effects on that bus doesn't matter one bit.
Cj
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oneglobalmind
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 13:38:01
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Is this a method one could use to fatten up a track, or a whole mix for that matter?
Or would this generally lead to mud?
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johnnyV
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 13:41:10
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It does sound more full than the original track by itself
Your using the word "full" so I assume it is louder or you have some EQ post efx send on your original track. Take the time to study and understand your signal path.
Sonar is set up like any digital mixing desk and there are many ways to route the signal.
The words pre fader, post efx etc are important things to understand when using any mixer, Sonar is the same.
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CJaysMusic
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 13:43:23
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Is this a method one could use to fatten up a track, or a whole mix for that matter?
Or would this generally lead to mud?
There's over 1,000,000,000,000 methods for fattening up a mix. The thing you need to learn is that there are no 1, 2, 3 steps for this. You need to use your ears and learn the tools you have. Then you can listen to a mix or a track in a mix and decide what it needs. Each song is different, so there are no set settings for this. Each song will need different processes done to it, because each song is different Your ears and your experience and knowledge is what makes a mix sound good. Cj
post edited by CJaysMusic - 2010/09/03 13:44:53
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brundlefly
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 13:53:29
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Your adding an extra gain stage so its normal to see an increase, because your sending 100% of the level to that bus. Having no effects on that bus doesn't matter one bit. I wouldn't call it a gain stage; its a parallel path to the Master bus. If the send is at "100%" (0dB), it'll double the level (+6dB) on the Master if there's no FX on the destination bus to alter it.
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drewfx1
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 14:09:51
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oneglobalmind
Is this a method one could use to fatten up a track, or a whole mix for that matter?
Or would this generally lead to mud?
As others have noted, if it's just a parallel path with no diferent FX/EQ on either of the paths, it's exactly the same as increasing the track's level by 6dB.
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jasonthurley
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 14:20:41
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brundlefly
it'll double the level (+6dB) on the Master if there's no FX on the destination bus to alter it.
Just to correct this... 3db is double.. 6db would be triple the volume... For instance if you have an audio track operating at 0db on the master and you copy or clone the track (or sending the signal through an insert at 0db) and play both back there will be a 3db increase in volume, so your master fader will sit at +3.... not 6
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jasonthurley
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 14:23:01
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I use this for THX leveling of Movie Systems... Center Left and Right all sit at 85db SPL and the surrounds are at 82db SPL so when you add both sides Land R they total 85db just as the rest of the system.
So 3db is double volume or SPL
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brundlefly
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 14:50:19
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jasonthurleySo 3db is double volume or SPL 2 x Amplitude = 2 x SPL = 20*log(2) = 6.02dB
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drewfx1
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 14:55:38
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jasonthurley
I use this for THX leveling of Movie Systems... Center Left and Right all sit at 85db SPL and the surrounds are at 82db SPL so when you add both sides Land R they total 85db just as the rest of the system.
So 3db is double volume or SPL
[EDIT: you beat me to it!] No, this is incorrect when you are adding identical signals. If you are two adding uncorrelated signals (like noise), you will indeed see a ~3dB increase, but when adding 2 identical signals, it's ~+6dB's. Sorry to get all mathematical  , but it works like this... dB's indicate a logarithmic ratio between two levels: difference in dB's = 20 log 10(ratio) so if the ratio is 2 times: x = 20 log 10(2) = ~+6.02060 dB if ratio is .5, x = 20 log 10(.5) = ~-6.02060 dB or, if you want to convert in the opposite direction: ratio = 10 dB's/20 so, if dB's is 6.02060: ratio = 10 dB's/20 = 10 6.02060/20 = ~2.00000002
post edited by drewfx1 - 2010/09/03 14:59:28
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jasonthurley
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 14:55:55
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Dude... open Sonar and make a tone track at 0db....
Then copy it and send it to the same bus... it is +3 db
You are not going to tell me that Dolby is incorrect? THX system engineering has been wrong for how many years now???
Just do the test
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drewfx1
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 15:06:57
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jasonthurley
Dude... open Sonar and make a tone track at 0db....
Then copy it and send it to the same bus... it is +3 db
You are not going to tell me that Dolby is incorrect? THX system engineering has been wrong for how many years now???
Just do the test
Funny. I just did the test and got a 6dB difference as predicted. Again, you need to use identical signals. Noise signals will add at 3dB (due to partial cancellation between the 2 signals). And, typically, home theater adjustments are done using noise signals.
And by the way, decibels have been in use since at least the 1920's, a lot longer than Dolby. 
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jasonthurley
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 15:08:13
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I think we are just miscommuncating this...
I was correcting the fact that "double" volume is 3db increase not 6db.. period.. you want to add 2 stereo tracks of this same signal then yes it will increase 3db for each side and when left and right combined you will get another 3db totaling 6.
6db is not "double" volume when speaking about a mono track.. which most people record in mono.. and then create stereo from there
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bitflipper
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 15:13:49
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There's over 1,000,000,000,000 methods for fattening up a mix. CJ, I know I've berated you 1,000,000 times about the dangers of exaggerating! OP: yes, using an aux send is indeed a common way to fatten tracks, but not just by simply sending it there in order to get an increase in volume. Usually, something else is also happening on that bus to augment the track, such as parallel compression or reverb.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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drewfx1
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 15:15:51
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I am sorry, but when you say "double = +3dB", that is technically 100% incorrect. As we have stated, it's:
difference in dB's = 20 log10(ratio)
so if the ratio is 2 times:
x = 20 log10(2) = ~+6.02060 dB
Please look it up. We didn't pull that formula out of the sky.
It's not "3dB per side times 2".
Again, do your own test (I did), but make 100% sure you are using identical signals (music, sine waves, whatever, as long as each track is identical), and you will see it's +6dB.
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CJaysMusic
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 15:19:16
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CJ, I know I've berated you 1,000,000 times about the dangers of exaggerating!
Really, since every mix is different, you will need to use different things to make it sound fatter. So how many songs are there?? how many effects are used to do this?? It most likely more then 1,000,000,000. So I underestimated the possibilities
I wouldn't call it a gain stage
I call it a gain stage because a send and a bus can add gain to a signal
post edited by CJaysMusic - 2010/09/03 15:21:09
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brundlefly
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 15:22:18
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You are not going to tell me that Dolby is incorrect? No, I am telling you you are incorrect. Doubling a signal will add 6dB to the Master bus. I think drewfx1 nailed it with his mention of the difference between summing two uncorrelated signals (e.g. left and right surround channels), and summing two identical signals, which is what we're talking about here.
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jasonthurley
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 15:28:30
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drewfx1
I am sorry, but when you say "double = +3dB", that is technically 100% incorrect. As we have stated, it's:
difference in dB's = 20 log10(ratio)
so if the ratio is 2 times:
x = 20 log10(2) = ~+6.02060 dB
Please look it up. We didn't pull that formula out of the sky.
It's not "3dB per side times 2".
Again, do your own test (I did), but make 100% sure you are using identical signals (music, sine waves, whatever, as long as each track is identical), and you will see it's +6dB.
Did you use a stereo track?? or Mono? Use a Mono track and create a sign wave say 1K that is sitting at -3db on your INPUT fader.. it should read 3db less... -6db on the MASTER fader... if so you have a setting in Sonar that adjusts automatically for panning.. such as a -3db curve when you pan to center, etc...
post edited by jasonthurley - 2010/09/03 15:29:31
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jasonthurley
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 15:37:15
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I have used the 3db doubling method for hundreds of THX 5.1 setups... there is no auto calculating or adjustment for reducing volume when panning center,.. etc it is all passive.. what you send is what you get. If 6db is double then I would have to calculate SPL at 79db per side for surround to get to 85.. and I have done this A LOT it always increases 3db on the SPL meter when you add an identical SPL signal to the existing one... so I HAVE to use 82 db SPL per side and when they combine they add up to 85 db SPL There is NO debate... formula or not... wWhy do you think they use the 3db reduction in LCR panning?? because when you pan a mono signal to center it "doubles" the volume (3db) so they have designed panning systems to take this into consideration and reduce the signal by 3db .... you can look this up in any manual... When I wen to college for my Audio Engineering Degree it was a rule that 3db is "double" a sources volume. Just want to add that stereo tracks are not a single source...
post edited by jasonthurley - 2010/09/03 15:40:48
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drewfx1
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 16:01:04
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jasonthurley
I have used the 3db doubling method for hundreds of THX 5.1 setups... there is no auto calculating or adjustment for reducing volume when panning center,.. etc it is all passive.. what you send is what you get.
If 6db is double then I would have to calculate SPL at 79db per side for surround to get to 85.. and I have done this A LOT it always increases 3db on the SPL meter when you add an identical SPL signal to the existing one... so I HAVE to use 82 db SPL per side and when they combine they add up to 85 db SPL
There is NO debate... formula or not... wWhy do you think they use the 3db reduction in LCR panning?? because when you pan a mono signal to center it "doubles" the volume (3db) so they have designed panning systems to take this into consideration and reduce the signal by 3db .... you can look this up in any manual... When I wen to college for my Audio Engineering Degree it was a rule that 3db is "double" a sources volume.
Just want to add that stereo tracks are not a single source...
Again, ~+3dB's RMS is correct when you are adding 2 uncorrelated sources (like noise or stereo with different L and R signals) and measuring RMS levels. This is due to average cancellation between signals when measuring RMS levels. (Peak levels will still be +6dB.) When doing your theater SPL measurements, I believe you are both doing RMS measurements (SPL meters just about always measure RMS), and not using identical correlated test signals, thus +3dB. But when adding 2 identical signals in Sonar, you will get +6dB (for both peak and RMS). So it's not that you're wrong in what you're doing, but rather that you're mistakenly assuming that the -3dB average RMS cancellation between two uncorrelated signals happens everywhere. ~+3dB RMS is correct for adding 2 uncorrelated signals. But ~+6dB = twice the level.
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jasonthurley
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 16:39:14
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Ok... I am going to break this down one time and I am done with this thread.... When dealing with 2 "stereo" tracks you are "tripling" the volume... yes combining 2 stereo tracks will increase the master meter 6db...... that is "triple" the volume and this is how it breaks down: You have 2 stereo tracks both panned Hard left and Right... You put -6db tone on both stereo tracks...... Now when you solo/isolate the 2 left channels you get 3db increase Same with the right.. 3 db increase.... That is "Double" the volume Now when you combine them you get ANOTHER doubling of volume... so you get ANOTHER 3db increase... which is now "triple" the original volume...... Thats is it... there is no 6db is "double" the volume... period... you are adding more than 2 waves together so it CAN"T simply double.... it is tripling by have two busses already doubling and then adding another 3db (or double the volume) by having both channels of the already doubled signal combine. Get it?? EDIT: Some will ask why I say "tripled" instead of "Quadroupled" (because it is literally adding 6db which if separated means you just doubled your volume twice.. hence why not Quadrouple) it is because there are 3 "doubling" Effects goin on in this scientific combination of frequency.... One in the Left side of both "stereo" tracks and one on the right side of the "stereo" tracks.. then wqhen they both combine you get another 3db..that is the "3rd" doubling... That is all I have to say.
post edited by jasonthurley - 2010/09/03 18:09:55
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John
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 16:46:36
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All this is nice as a discussion but to the OP all you need to do is lower the level. That is why faders where invented. You don't need to know what a dB is or how the level got so high. All you need to do is lower it.
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drewfx1
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 18:17:42
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jasonthurley
Ok... I am going to break this down one time and I am done with this thread....
When dealing with 2 "stereo" tracks you are "tripling" the volume... yes combining 2 stereo tracks will increase the master meter 6db...... that is "triple" the volume and this is how it breaks down:
You have 2 stereo tracks both panned Hard left and Right...
You put -6db tone on both stereo tracks......
Now when you solo/isolate the 2 left channels you get 3db increase
Same with the right.. 3 db increase.... That is "Double" the volume
Now when you combine them you get ANOTHER doubling of volume... so you get ANOTHER 3db increase... which is now "triple" the original volume......
Thats is it... there is no 6db is "double" the volume... period... you are adding more than 2 waves together so it CAN"T simply double.... it is tripling by have two busses already doubling and then adding another 3db (or double the volume) by having both channels of the already doubled signal combine. Get it??
That is all I have to say.
That's because, when you do this, the panning laws you have selected (Options-Audio) are applying +/-3dB gain. If you add 2 mono tracks, or leave the 2 tracks stereo-interleaved with both panned the same, you get the predicted +6dB.
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jasonthurley
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 19:36:58
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bitflipper
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 19:50:46
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There is no need to speculate about any of this stuff, or even to consult a reference book, because it's so easy to test for yourself. All you need is a clip of a mono sine wave, SONAR, and an SPL meter.
(NOTE: Be sure to disable pan laws before you start experimenting. Use the "0db center - balance control" pan law, which essentially tells SONAR not to apply any automatic adjustments. Pan laws just confuse the issue. Feel free to repeat the test with your preferred pan law back in place, and see how it affects the results.)
Try bouncing two identical mono tracks
- panned center, to a mono destination track
- panned left and right, to a mono destination track
- panned center, to a stereo destination track
- panned left and right, to a stereo destination track
Check your peak levels on each destination track and compare them to your original test waves. Finally, use an SPL meter while combining identical left and right tones acoustically. Measure each speaker independently (turn the other one off), then combined.
If you don't already know what will happen, I won't spoil the surprise. Just try it and see!
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Guitarman1
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 21:27:12
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one way to fatten up the drums, is to have a bus that the drums are routed to. Then clone that bus, with both busses going to your master. On the cloned bus add some compression, not a whole lot, but some, then gently bring it into the mix till the drums sound "fatter"
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CJaysMusic
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 21:32:05
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I like to use a send to send the kick and snare to a bus with a compressor on it and then dial in the right amount of compressed signal with the right amount of uncompressed signal. That fattens it up also
Cj
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...wicked
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 22:50:12
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A regular dry send with no other processing will give more volume, but there are cooler things you can do with that to "fatten" a track up.
Parallel compression was mentioned, other kinds of doubling, or jiggering a split-harmonizer type thing, EQ, chorus, all sorts of things.
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keith
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Re:effect send = increased gain???
2010/09/03 23:22:08
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