bewerber2
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Concrete Limiter Question
Hello,
I have a question regarding Concrete Limiter:
On my MASTER bus I have a clipper that is set to -0.3db. After the clipper, I have an instance of Cakewalk Concrete Limiter, which is set to 0.0db threshold.
My question is: if the clipper is set to -0.3db which should do a radical cut of everything that is above -0.3db, why I see the GR(gain reduction) lights of Concrete Limiter moving though?
Thanx a lot!
Cheers,
V.
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John
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Re: Concrete Limiter Question
2016/09/07 10:40:33
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I no nothing about your Clipper. I do know that the Concrete Limiter has a look ahead buffer to catch transients that another limiter may not see.
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brundlefly
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Re: Concrete Limiter Question
2016/09/07 10:49:38
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If the 'clipper' is in the track's FX bin, and Concrete Limiter is in the Prochannel, you'll need to right-click in the Prochannel and switch it to Post-FX. By default, the Prochannel is ahead of the FX bin.
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olemon
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Re: Concrete Limiter Question
2016/09/07 11:04:22
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brundlefly
If the 'clipper' is in the track's FX bin, and Concrete Limiter is in the Prochannel, you'll need to right-click in the Prochannel and switch it to Post-FX. By default, the Prochannel is ahead of the FX bin.
Or put the Clipper (T-Racks?) in an Fx Chain in the Pro Channel and order the PC modules.
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bitflipper
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Re: Concrete Limiter Question
2016/09/07 11:10:48
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Even if the limiter is after the clipper, as suggested by brundlefly above, you may still see activity in the limiter.
You may imagine that the clipper is shaving peaks at exactly -0.3 dB, but a well-coded clipper won't work that way (it'd sound nasty if it did). If you were to do a close analysis of your exported audio with the limiter removed, you'd likely see many peaks in excess of 0 dB (you'd need to export as 32-bit float to see this). The limiter is still needed, even following a clipper.
Bear in mind that even with the clipper and the limiter in action, setting your thresholds that high will likely result in overs anyway. More conservative settings would keep that from happening.
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mixmkr
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Re: Concrete Limiter Question
2016/09/07 11:36:21
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Are tbere ccompressors offered by Cake tbat would do a better job when set to infinite ?...disregarding" character" etc?
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bewerber2
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Re: Concrete Limiter Question
2016/09/07 14:50:28
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@bitflipper: Thanks for sharing your competence with us. The clipper I am using is KClip2 and it is placed inside of FX chain which is placed before ConcreteLimiter. KClip is set to -0.3db (somebody in a tutorial has recommended this threshold level) and ConcreteLimiter is set to 0.0db and it is still "moving" about 1-2db. That means, that KClip has a tolerance of at least 2,5db which is very much in my eyes. I thought that a clipper ensures "shaving" everything above threshold level but now I learned something new  . 1. If I understand correctly, there is no tool on the market that can guarantee "shaving" of everything above threshold level. Which level should I use then when I bounce my song in order to burn it on CD? 2. Should I always use this combination of clipper and limiter? If yes, in which order? 3. BTW Since I always use the ProChannel and FX Chains for moduleas that are not ProChannel compatible I would like to know what is the sense of FX bin? Can I use it for something special or is that only deprecated stuff from older Cakewalk versions? Cheers, V.
post edited by bewerber2 - 2016/09/07 15:16:09
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bitflipper
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Re: Concrete Limiter Question
2016/09/07 17:29:53
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☄ Helpfulby telecharge 2016/09/07 17:58:48
Clippers literally add something to your mix. Specifically, new frequencies that you didn't record yourself.
When they're working well, they generate harmonic distortion, which can be a good thing in moderate doses. Other types of distortion are "inharmonic", meaning the generated frequencies are not harmonically related to the original frequencies. The result of inharmonic distortion ranges from fingernails-on-a-chalkboard dissonance to very subtle "I can't tell why, but my mix sucks".
Although a clipper could easily be designed to rigorously shave peaks at an arbitrary level, it isn't done because such abrupt changes in the waveform result in inharmonic distortion. A well-designed clipper (which KClip qualifies as) minimizes inharmonic distortion by applying a less-sharp knee, sometimes referred to as "soft" clipping.
Soft clipping generates mostly harmonic distortion, a good thing in moderation. Controlled moderation, that's the operative concept. I like harmonic distortion, but I want it to be there on purpose and under my control, not as an accidental side-effect. For that reason, I don't use clippers on the master, only as a special effect on individual tracks. That's just a personal choice, though. Lots of people use clippers on the master like you do.
One of the most common ways mixers lose control over clipper-generated harmonics is by relying on the clipper to do too much. With the clipper on the master bus, you can easily go from a nice-sounding setting to nasty grunge by simply making a few changes to your mix balance. Limiters can suffer the same phenomenon, but the effect won't be as drastic. A good limiter will adapt to small changes in levels.
What I'm saying is: don't rely on the clipper to do the job a limiter should be doing. If you like the effect of the clipper, preface it with a compressor and/or limiter so that the levels hitting the clipper are fairly consistent. That'll let you tweak the threshold to taste and keep it under control.
I'm also concerned that your thresholds are too high. There is no benefit to pushing levels right up to 0dB, and there are risks. If your peak meters show 0dB, it's quite likely that you're introducing distortion that may not show up until you play back an MP3 or a CD. Better to set the limiter's ceiling to between -0.3 and -1.0 dB, or perhaps even lower, especially if MP3 is the primary format.
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