film scoring with Sonar - passable?

Also, if you'd like to see my first-ever scored movie scene, check this out: Running From Shivers. It's a scene from a movie scored by Chad Seiter who graciously lent me this scene to try on my own.

EDIT: my music starts at 1:37:50

Sonar is not ideal for scoring to picture, but it works. One thing to watch out for is that Sonar has no ability to lock clips to a timecode location. If you have (for example) sound effects along with your music, and you want to adjust the music's tempo, your sound effects will move in time since they are associated with bars:beats. If you're only doing the music, this shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Have the filmmakers send you a video file if they can. Quicktime Sorensen 3 works well, or motion jpeg, or mpeg. And get 2 pops at the beginning and end. As long as the two pops always line up, you know you are in sync. A 2 pop is a 1 frame long 'beep' 2 seconds before the program starts, and 2 seconds after the program ends. 1 kHz, -18 dB FS sine wave. (the actual level will vary depending on the studio. Could be -20 -24 or anything really...) 2 pops are lifesavers--if you know nothing else about the file just make sure you get the 2 pops.

Having them burn a timecode window into the video file will help as well. And make sure that you know what frame rate you're going to be dealing with and sample rate, usually 48kHz, and if you have to deal with pullup. Sonar can deal with just about every frame rate you're going to encounter. Hopefully they're not shooting HD at 23.976 fps which Sonar has yet to support.

Yup, Tarsier, I too have just gotten into film scoring...any more details would be truly priceless!

As Tarsier says (and we discussed when we meet last month!) Sonar is missing a few features which would make it suitable for film scoring. Most of the work I do now is Film Scoring and I have to be honest that I struggle with Sonar 4 and have to resort back to syncing Sonar with Digital Perfomer. My biggest wishes for Sonar is that they implement more post features, similar to those in DP and ProTools as I do love Sonar. My main gripe is not being able to scroll by frames in the track view, which is crucial when trying to spot effects. It is possible by using the video view and then swapping back, but this is a real pain.

But then again it is horses for courses. I feel that Sonar is aimed more at production and mixing side of the industry, where as DP and Nuendo are aimed more at the post side. I am not sure where Sonar and Cakewalk are planning to Sonar, but I hope it is in this direction!

Here we call the 2 pop a 'syncplop'! It is crucial that you insert this at the beginning and end of any project, especially when working with timecode. If for example your film starts at 10:00:00:00, then you insert a one frame syncplop at 09:59:58:00. This means that anyone can then line your music up with the video file...no matter what. It also means that if you fade a tune in, there is no issue about where the fade starts. I am sure you can find a syncplop wave on line, or even make one yourself. I tend to scale mine to -12db fullscale.

If you need one, you can download one from my site at www.spencerbruce.com/syncplop-12db.wav

HOpe this helps

All the best

Neil

These guys have said it all....

Sonar is fine at "scoring" films. It's getting better each version. If you are writing music to film, you may also need Vegas. When I get the DVD from the director I import the video in Vegas. From there I cut the film up into scenes and render them as mpegs or avi. At the moment, quicktime is a bit dodgy with Sonar and doesn't seem to always work. From there I mix the tracks in Sonar or Pro Tools. 9 times out of 10 I sync the tracks back up into Vegas or Pro Tools and deliver via Pro Tools. If you deliver via Pro Tools you don't need a two pop. Although it doesn't hurt to have it. Other people leave to movie in Vegas and use MTC to drive it. That works too, but probably eats up a computer to do it correctly.

Now doing sound design would be difficult. I only compose so I am no help there.

Supposedly the next version will allow Sonar to export the video files via firewrie video such as a cannopus advc 100, currently you have to use a Matrox Perehelia card to export video to a big screen or external monitor for client presentation.

Good luck!

Tarsier:

Can you help me to understand Sonar's ability to create a marker that locks to SMPTE and how one might use that to lock clips?

Thanks in advance.

-D

ORIGINAL: wynnsong
Supposedly the next version will allow Sonar to export the video files via firewrie video such as a cannopus advc 100, currently you have to use a Matrox Perehelia card to export video to a big screen or external monitor for client presentation.

Where did you hear this tidbit of news about outputting to firewire? That would be a fantastic feature. (And you don't need a Parehelia card for external presentation. Any 2nd head display will do to output Sonar's video window.)

ORIGINAL: DonM
Can you help me to understand Sonar's ability to create a marker that locks to SMPTE and how one might use that to lock clips?

Nope. You can lock a marker to a timecode, but you just can't lock a clip to a timecode. Or to a marker. It's a feature that Sonar desparately needs. If anyone has any other tips on using markers for this, I'd love to hear it.

ORIGINAL: studiofreak
If you're working in 29.97FPs, Sonar works quite well. Given the Surround features added in V4, it is just as capable as the next DAW. If you're looking for advanced notation however, it might not be the best match.

Tarsier, You bring up a good point. Sonar still doesnt have HD timecode support. I've sent this request ot cakewalk several months ago when I was working on an HD project. The only software I know at the moment that supports it directly is PT. (with the additional DV $1000 surcharge...) Nuendo has a function to do pullup/pulldowns as well as an adjustable speed for video playback. I love working in Sonar. (it just sounds and feels better to me) As I continue to take on HD or 24P projects, this functionality is becoming more essential.

We've started doing surround DVDs and Sonar really works well for surround mixes. Now it just needs to be able to export a Dolby Digital file.

We're also probably going to start shooting HD by next year, so 23.976 timecode support will be a must for us. Pullup/down would sure be handy as well. I keep looking for alternatives to Sonar, since it doesn't do everything I want it to. But each new version adds just enough new features to keep me using it. I just wish the new features would come out a lot faster

the video over firewire would be awesome.


I kind of do that now by MTC synching a second machine with vegas video and utilizing the video over firewire function. my camcorder acts as a converter into a huge tv monitor... Kind of convoluted, but it works...

it would be great to free up that other machine and run the video out of sonar directly...

Qucik update. I talked to the director and he seems extremely happy with my work. He's all but said I have the job. The movie is called Autumn Angel and you can find out about it at www.superredpictures.com.

So... I have a much better handle on what the hell it is I'm doing, so thanks everyone for your help. Another of the million questions I have is would it be better to import the full-length video into Sonar, or should I do like wynnsong does and break it apart? I don't have the software to break it into sections and have absolutely no money (and I mean it) to buy Vegas or the like.

This film is shot with a digital camera at 24 frames, in case anyone needs to know.

I did a small Commercial and a Product Presentation on my old Acid 4 software a year ago and they didnt really require perfect sync to video. They went jus fine. I yet have to work that out on Sonar though. I personally upgraded to S4 for its VSTi/DXi and Remote Control features for making music. But when iam in a position like yours on whether to upgrade to S4 from S3 to score for films, iam really unanswerable, cos im really blank and confused.

I checked websites and they say Nuendo which is a Film Scoring/Post Production oriented software is almost 2 to 3 times the price of Sonar 4 PE which strikes me. Why ???? Sonar has Video support too, but why is Nuendo that highly priced ? Is Sonar still not ready for Post Production? I think yes. Im not unhappy cos i use S4 primarily to make Music, not really Films now. But when the occassion arises, i might be recommended to use either Nuendo or PT, or completely crossing the platform to Logic Express cos by the look of the pricing., it seems they are "designed" for Post Production. Someone above ^^ jus said the truth.

tarsier
Have the filmmakers send you a video file if they can. Quicktime Sorensen 3 works well, or motion jpeg, or mpeg. And get 2 pops at the beginning and end. As long as the two pops always line up, you know you are in sync. A 2 pop is a 1 frame long 'beep' 2 seconds before the program starts, and 2 seconds after the program ends. 1 kHz, -18 dB FS sine wave. (the actual level will vary depending on the studio. Could be -20 -24 or anything really...) 2 pops are lifesavers--if you know nothing else about the file just make sure you get the 2 pops.

Having them burn a timecode window into the video file will help as well. And make sure that you know what frame rate you're going to be dealing with and sample rate, usually 48kHz, and if you have to deal with pullup. Sonar can deal with just about every frame rate you're going to encounter. Hopefully they're not shooting HD at 23.976 fps which Sonar has yet to support.

Sorry for the necro post ... but I found notes from your post in my 2pop folder and just completed some tests on a 2 hour long video
with footage shot at 23.976 and it appears that as long as I don't render video out of Sonar ( 4.0.2 )
( not that I tried ... no reason to ... I just export audio from Sonar and import the audio back into Vegas )
then the audio lines up perfectly, all through the 2 hour video.
I used a 2pop at front and end.

Here's the whole process of the test.
The footage was of a pocket watch (macro ... so the face and hands fill the whole HD screen) running from 5:28:00 AM to 7:29:16 AM.
The second hand on the watch snaps between seconds as opposed to sweeping.
1) Render the 23.976 footage out of Vegas, along with the audio of the 2pops, at 24FPS and import video with audio into Sonar after setting Sonar to 24FPS.
2) Drop markers exactly on the front of each 2pops, and at exactly 6:00:00 and 7:00:00 of the video, as in exactly when the second hand clicks to exactly those times.
3) Record a sharp snare hit, (midi with Storm Drum) exactly at the 2pops and the 6 o'clock and 7 o'clock markers and adjust the midi notes to the exact time that the markers are on, by right clicking on the note and setting the ticks.
4) Export the audio from Sonar and import the audio back into the 23.976 Vegas project.
5) Expand the timeline in Vegas and examine the location of the snare hits in relation to the 2pops and the markers in Vegas showing 6 o'clock and 7 o'clock.
They are so close ... amazingly close ... that it couldn't possibly matter.
They might be off by a few samples, but they're all consistently off by the same very small amount.

The test before the above, I had Sonar set to 30fps nd, and the audio was still close enough after getting it back into Vegas.
26 samples was the farthest off for the last 2pop in the incorrect test at 30FPS.

So the point is ... Yes.
It's perfectly doable and very easy.

In the example above, why is the pop ahead of the start?  I would have thought the pop would be at the exact start.  Obiovusly showing my syncing ignorance here...
 
Important because i will be syncing something soon.  Mine is simple but I still want to get it right.
 
Thanks.